List threads

[Fietta]

Not a list thread, but I'm wondering in 2019 why they're not allowed anymore? List threads are what originally caused discussion on the forum and it's been three years since we've ever had one, can we at least see how Arni's one pans out? Forum's practically dead, community need something to keep 'em going. They only got locked because of silly arguments which ultimately could've been tamed with some real discipline rather than just locking the threads and banning lists. This is probably the only community to ban something so silly.

 

[_Osiris_]

but the silly arguments and the bants are the interesting part if you stop all of the actual discussion you are not left with much discussion!

 

[Scar]

Nobody disagrees that back in 2016 when lists were banned the arguments about them went out of control and away from their original purpose. That is why I was fully supportive of the decision to ban them back then. That being said, it is completely normal for any community of a competitive game to discuss their teams and players. I can't think of any decent competitive game where discussions of this sort don't happen. In fact, in many of them they are actively encouraged.

Weeks ago I send a PM to Callum suggesting a seperate subboard dedicated to discussions on multiplayer, the response I got only a few days ago was disappointing to say the least. It is unbearable that it takes weeks each time to come to a decision on a multiplayer related issue. And it is all the more unbearable that many good ideas (not just talking about the subboard, which by the way was the idea of someone else originally) are not put into practice due to alleged time constraints. It wouldn't surprise me if the multiplayer community soon made efforts to become fully independant in terms of the forums, too.

 

[Waljaaa]

Whats the point of a list? It's just useless tbf 

 

[Fietta]

Whats the point of a list? It's just useless tbf 

About 99% of all threads created in this section are deemed 'useless', the point is discussion.

 

[Gibby Jr]

That being said, it is completely normal for any community of a competitive game to discuss their teams and players. I can't think of any decent competitive game where discussions of this sort don't happen. In fact, in many of them they are actively encouraged.

a seperate subboard dedicated to discussions on multiplayer

I remember one the original reasons for lists being banned was that they presented a bad front for Warband; it was argued that new people that came on the forums would see the drama on the list threads and not want to get involved with multiplayer at all as a result. It's definitely true that forum arguments and drama aren't likely to be appealing to people uninterested in that type of thing, but a separate subboard dedicated to discussion of this type (like the FSE forums did for NW multiplayer) is a good way of cornering that sort of thing off to one part of the forum.

 

[Menethil]

Weeks ago I send a PM to Callum suggesting a seperate subboard dedicated to discussions on multiplayer, the response I got only a few days ago was disappointing to say the least. It is unbearable that it takes weeks each time to come to a decision on a multiplayer related issue.

Callum! "the community manager who knows nothing about competitive" also we know nothing about him and we saw him one time after he got the job! Atleast Lust was trying some stuff. Callum is totally useless.

 

[Scar]

I remember one the original reasons for lists being banned was that they presented a bad front for Warband; it was argued that new people that came on the forums would see the drama on the list threads and not want to get involved with multiplayer at all as a result. It's definitely true that forum arguments and drama aren't likely to be appealing to people uninterested in that type of thing, but a separate subboard dedicated to discussion of this type (like the FSE forums did for NW multiplayer) is a good way of cornering that sort of thing off to one part of the forum.

Yeh, should that be the main concern a subboard would deal with that. Though, generally speaking, what makes an even worse impression is a dead forum. And we are pretty close to that.

 

[Gi]

Just post your lists on FSE, we thrive on salt and banter in NW. 

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

Its been 3 years, get over yourselves and let us have our fun.

 

[Roberta]

Did someone call?

If people don’t want to see these threads then they shouldn’t view the thread. Restricting community engagement for the few players that would take offense is pretty childish on the moderators part. They usually brought out the most engagement on the forums outside of arguing on rule changes and other boring discussions. The majority of people that posted lists made them well thought out and put a lot of time into forming their opinions for everyone to see. In both the European and NA scene I’ve seen plenty of players go from horrible ratings or not even being rated to being top tier players in their positions. People that are serious about any competitive scene whether it be a real sport or a video game usually take criticism positively either as a compliment or use it as a chip on their shoulder. The only time they ever got out of hand was usually on the part of players making comments on other players that did not even involve the person that posted the list. Competitiveness should be encouraged and is really the only way to get better. Also free speech, what is forum? China?

I’d love to be able to edit my Hall of a fame thread and at least clean it up. Seems silly locking something that had over 100 pages of positive, happy and friendly conversation.

 

[Maximou]

Did someone call?

If people don’t want to see these threads then they shouldn’t view the thread. Restricting community engagement for the few players that would take offense is pretty childish on the moderators part. They usually brought out the most engagement on the forums outside of arguing on rule changes and other boring discussions. The majority of people that posted lists made them well thought out and put a lot of time into forming their opinions for everyone to see. In both the European and NA scene I’ve seen plenty of players go from horrible ratings or not even being rated to being top tier players in their positions. People that are serious about any competitive scene whether it be a real sport or a video game usually take criticism positively either as a compliment or use it as a chip on their shoulder. The only time they ever got out of hand was usually on the part of players making comments on other players that did not even involve the person that posted the list. Competitiveness should be encouraged and is really the only way to get better. Also free speech, what is forum? China?

I’d love to be able to edit my Hall of a fame thread and at least clean it up. Seems silly locking something that had over 100 pages of positive, happy and friendly conversation.

+1

 

[Orion]

@Scar & Gibby: the current reasoning for not creating a competitive banter child board is because it would need moderation standards that differ from the rest of on-topic. Of all the sections on the forum, Off-Topic is moderated with the lightest touch, while the English On-Topic section is the middle ground. The competitive community has many parallels with the forum's off-topic community, especially with regards to how familiar each individual is with everyone else, so creating a child board for this type of group would necessitate a different moderation approach than that used for the rest of the section. We already have a little more leniency in the clan board, and this has caused a bit of confusion as it is. A competitive child board would be moderated at a similar level as off-topic, and sending mixed messages like that causes problems for us.

With regards to Scar's comment about waiting for a response from Callum: the response was delayed because global & section moderators were discussing the merits and risks of creating a child board, and considering alternatives. I wouldn't hold your breath for any real change in this matter on this forum, as many improvements & suggestions are on hold until the new forum is launched. I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to reveal about this, but I will say that the current plans include the tools necessary to achieve your goal on your own (i.e. without staff assistance), and on your own terms.


Regarding Arni & Charlini's recent list thread being locked, our biggest concern by far is that subjective valuation of players by a handful of individuals is inherently contentious, turning these threads into flash-points for flame wars. The key thing is that they are subjective, i.e. opinions, which can be fought over endlessly. Some list threads assert that rankings are allegedly based on tournament performance, but a compilation of these statistics is typically not included with the rankings. The lack of transparent objectivity makes them all the more likely to start a fight. For what it's worth, I'm pushing to find a compromise on list threads. Erminas & I would be the two primarily responsible for monitoring them, and while I don't speak for him I do think he is similarly sympathetic.

Also free speech, what is forum? China?

Forum is privately owned, ergo you don't have rights here. You have privileges. It's a technicality, I know, but the free speech argument is silly.

I’d love to be able to edit my Hall of a fame thread and at least clean it up. Seems silly locking something that had over 100 pages of positive, happy and friendly conversation.

I'd like that, too, because you still have typos in my entry.

 

[Faebio]

Hello
EU and NA Competitive native warband makes a tiny minority of warbands overall playerbase and is of little concern to TWs future plans

Good night

 

[grimsight]

@Scar & Gibby: the current reasoning for not creating a competitive banter child board is because it would need moderation standards that differ from the rest of on-topic. Of all the sections on the forum, Off-Topic is moderated with the lightest touch, while the English On-Topic section is the middle ground. The competitive community has many parallels with the forum's off-topic community, especially with regards to how familiar each individual is with everyone else, so creating a child board for this type of group would necessitate a different moderation approach than that used for the rest of the section. We already have a little more leniency in the clan board, and this has caused a bit of confusion as it is. A competitive child board would be moderated at a similar level as off-topic, and sending mixed messages like that causes problems for us.

The current reasoning for not creating a competitive board is because you need different moderation standards.. Ok then what is preventing you from having different moderation standards. Your job would be make easier as all the competitive players would scurry off to this new area where you would have to engage much less. New players aren't going to randomly stumble into a competitive subforum and be scared by toxicity.

 

[Scar]

@Scar & Gibby: the current reasoning for not creating a competitive banter child board is because it would need moderation standards that differ from the rest of on-topic. Of all the sections on the forum, Off-Topic is moderated with the lightest touch, while the English On-Topic section is the middle ground. The competitive community has many parallels with the forum's off-topic community, especially with regards to how familiar each individual is with everyone else, so creating a child board for this type of group would necessitate a different moderation approach than that used for the rest of the section. We already have a little more leniency in the clan board, and this has caused a bit of confusion as it is. A competitive child board would be moderated at a similar level as off-topic, and sending mixed messages like that causes problems for us.

With regards to Scar's comment about waiting for a response from Callum: the response was delayed because global & section moderators were discussing the merits and risks of creating a child board, and considering alternatives. I wouldn't hold your breath for any real change in this matter on this forum, as many improvements & suggestions are on hold until the new forum is launched. I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to reveal about this, but I will say that the current plans include the tools necessary to achieve your goal on your own (i.e. without staff assistance), and on your own terms.

Regarding Arni & Charlini's recent list thread being locked, our biggest concern by far is that subjective valuation of players by a handful of individuals is inherently contentious, turning these threads into flash-points for flame wars. The key thing is that they are subjective, i.e. opinions, which can be fought over endlessly. Some list threads assert that rankings are allegedly based on tournament performance, but a compilation of these statistics is typically not included with the rankings. The lack of transparent objectivity makes them all the more likely to start a fight. For what it's worth, I'm pushing to find a compromise on list threads. Erminas & I would be the two primarily responsible for monitoring them, and while I don't speak for him I do think he is similarly sympathetic.

Been sitting here for quite some time thinking about how to reply. But I can't, really, I mean you don't have to make rocket sciene out of creating another off topic subboard for Warband related topic. I'm sure whatever style of moderation you use in the English Off Topic section would have worked just fine. This combination of overthinking and overblown bureaucracy until you make a decision kills me, honestly. Then you get hit with another SoonTM, I'm done, I give up.

 

[Fietta]

Hello
EU and NA Competitive native warband makes a tiny minority of warbands overall playerbase and is of little concern to TWs future plans

Good night

Bannerlord's competitive mode actually came about from the single player community!

 

[Orion]

The current reasoning for not creating a competitive board is because you need different moderation standards.. Ok then what is preventing you from having different moderation standards. Your job would be make easier as all the competitive players would scurry off to this new area where you would have to engage much less. New players aren't going to randomly stumble into a competitive subforum and be scared by toxicity.

I told you what's preventing it. See below.

[quote author=Orion]We already have a little more leniency in the clan board, and this has caused a bit of confusion as it is. A competitive child board would be moderated at a similar level as off-topic, and sending mixed messages like that causes problems for us.[/quote]The main problem would be spill-over from the wilder competitive board into the current boards. The standards aren't harder for us to manage, they're harder for the community to work with. Allowing different behavior on one part of a section and not in another will result in lots of warnings & mutes being handed out because people will think if it's OK in one place then it's OK everywhere. The only reason this doesn't happen currently between on- and off-topic is because the majority of off-topic posters don't care at all about on-topic discussion.



[quote author=Scar]Been sitting here for quite some time thinking about how to reply. But I can't, really, I mean you don't have to make rocket sciene out of creating another off topic subboard for Warband related topic. I'm sure whatever style of moderation you use in the English Off Topic section would have worked just fine. This combination of overthinking and overblown bureaucracy until you make a decision kills me, honestly. Then you get hit with another SoonTM, I'm done, I give up.[/quote]Sorry you feel that way. If we didn't have a system in place then it would be as simple as creating the board and keeping an eye on it. Unfortunately, as described above, it's not about moderation workload. It's about creating a mess on the boards we currently have by selectively relaxing standards for a new board. As long as we're being candid, people suck and are the reason we can't have nice things. That's why list threads were banned in the first place.

If it were up to me, we would run a pilot for a return of list threads with a couple of ground rules and see how it plays out. I don't get to make that call by myself because I'm not the only person that would have to deal with any potential fallout. I'm not screwing with you, and I want to help, but this is a team decision.

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

Well ur team wack af if they cant create subboard with alternate rules. Difficult for the community to have different rules on different parts on the forum? We aint ****ing 12, we're grown ass people. Seems like the only ones havin hard time doing that, is the staff, as your tiny little group is ruining it for a lot of others.
I can't elaborate just enough how easily you could either allow lists with moderation again, or create subforums with alternate rules.

 

[Obituary]

Well ur team wack af if they cant create subboard with alternate rules. Difficult for the community to have different rules on different parts on the forum? We aint **** 12, we're grown ass people. Seems like the only ones havin hard time doing that, is the staff, as your tiny little group is ruining it for a lot of others.
I can't elaborate just enough how easily you could either allow lists with moderation again, or create subforums with alternate rules.

Please, don't.