Limit lance effectiveness to mounted combat

[Sovereignty]

And then I just down block until the enemy horseman get's frustrated and either rides away or charges in with a normal melee weapon and is promptly slaughtered.

Or I could just ride around in circles five centimeters out of range of the dismounted lancer until he becomes frustrated and start chasing me, at which point he "is promptly slaughtered". Or I could just continuously bump him while he's busy blocking downwards.

In 1v1 dismounted beats mounted when skill is even. This is just fact.

... There are aliens in alpha centauri. This is just fact. Oh wait, you're thinking I can't possibly know that since the premise has never been tested? That reminds me of something. Also, my hat is nicer than yours.

Unless the lancer is fortunate enough to have surprise he is gong to get run through by a polearm or simply blocked and dodged into uselessness. It's impossible for a horsemen to kill a similarly skilled player who has the same sized polearm or larger. It takes a difference in skill for the lancer to come out the winner.

Unless the footman is fortunate enough to surprise the lancer, he is going to get run through by a polearm or simply avoided and sidestepped into uselessness. It's impossible for a lancer to kill a similarly skilled footman who has the same sized polearm or larger. It takes a difference in skill for the lancer to come out the winner.

See what I did there?

Now, I'm coolio with pikemen being that way.

I'm cool with having aliens in alpha centauri as well.

After all, pikemen were the bane of cavalry and should anally rape any cav that try to **** around with them.

No. No, they shouldn't. Because rape, anal or otherwise, is rather despicable, and would be inappropriate for a game like mount and blade for a good number of reasons - and quite honestly, attempting to rape someone in the middle of combat would likely end up with you being the one getting penetrated - by a pointy metal stick. That sort of behaviour is more appropriate for suspicious hentai games than medieval combat simulators. Honestly.

A dismounted knight, on the other hand, should not be so ridiculously combat effective.

Good thing he isn't, then.

The main problem I have is that being dismounted is no big deal.

Except for the fact that you lose your mobility and impact advantage.

Having a horse is basically like having a tail in Mario. You get new abilities and if you get hit it's no big deal because you are still a very functional player.

Right, and a mario character with a tail will beat a mario player without a tail if skill is not a factor. Because the one with the tail has better starting conditions.

Being dehorsed needs to cause damage or something else of the sort. Having a 15mph or faster moving object violently torn from underneath you, sending you plummeting into the ground, is gonna hurt a bit. Especially if the ****** lands on you.

I agree, as previously stated (in my first post in this topic, even). That has very, very little to do with combat balance between a mounted and dismounted lancer, however.

MAIN POINT WAS: If lancer A dehorses lancer B and then A has basically given B the advantage now, assuming that there aren't any enemies around.

Masquerading thesis as fact makes baby jesus cry. Masquerading thesis as fact repeatedly makes him want to slap you.

Everyone knows that a polearm on foot will pretty much always outreach the same polearm on horseback. Not to mention I'm guessing that a lance used two handed on foot has more power than a lance used one handed on horseback, and is faster.

Everyone knows that a horseman is more mobile than a footman. Not to mention that the mounted player has an amazing damage advantage in the speed bonus, and will generally swoop past in ride-by attacks that don't allow for landing several blows in one pass, meaning the speed of the weapon is irrelevant.

This means, a dehorsed lance can always (and I've played a lot and it happened all the time) frontally stop a charge coming directly to him.

Which is why no lancer worth his salt ever charges a spearman head-on...

A good way of dealing with a dehorsed lancer is to take out your sword n' shield and get close to him. You should let him hit your shield or the side of your horse, to prevent your horse from rearing, and then bump-slash him :d

I've tried this too, and I can say that there is a thing called STRAFE, it basically can be used (buttons A and D) to circle horse and keep thrusting? There's no way you can slash with a sword an aware dehorsed lancer. Or if there is a way, it requires insane skill if you confront it with being the dehorsed lancer thrusting.

I can say there is a thing called ADJUSTING YOUR TRAVELLING DIRECTION, it can basically be used (buttons A and D) to stay on top of the footman and keep bumping him. There's no way to slash with a sword against someone that's bumping you. Or if there is a way, it requires you to be more skilled than the person bumping you.

 

[Horsa]

Which is why no lancer worth his salt ever charges a spearman head-on...

I can say there is a thing called ADJUSTING YOUR TRAVELLING DIRECTION, it can basically be used (buttons A and D) to stay on top of the footman and keep bumping him. There's no way to slash with a sword against someone that's bumping you. Or if there is a way, it requires you to be more skilled than the person bumping you.

These two frases basically sum it up pretty well, thank you. In the first you said spearman which is basically what I am saying, a dehorsed knight turns into a very effetive spearman/pikeman unrightfully, and as you said spearmen have it head on against cavalry, and head on is basically the case I am considering.

Then second sentence is wrong, strafing on foot is faster and more agile than on horse (you can't strafe but only rotate on horse), plus if you don't have a speed bonus it's insanely hard to bump or keep bumping the enemy, who slows you down each time you bump into him, (if you've ever fight archers 1vs1 that's the case when they'll just circle you untill your horse die to arrows), bump damage is also for reasone of balance very limited, which makes the case bumping the enemy to death kind of non-sense (consider armor as example).

And I doubt that aliens on alpha centaurii have something to do with the topic...

I made a pic to those that don't understand. Take in consideration that the speed effect of the horse against spearmen is on apparently effective because timing completly nullifies it, and  consider that red line is properly exagerated, but the principle is correct i think.

 

[Sovereignty]

[...] and head on is basically the case I am considering.

And using the same reasoning, I will henceforth assume that the spearman (read: person with long pointy stick, regardless of actual classification of said stick, since it would be arduous and unnecessary to type out every single weapon variation) is wearing his pants on his head and is therefore unable to see the monitor. Naturally, this does not happen in most cases, but as long as we're assuming the confrontation takes place with an unwarranted and unlikely drawback on the part of the horseman, we can do the same for the spearman. If you focus on a head-on scenario, then your whole argumentation becomes entirely redundant, since a decent horseman will not charge head-on, as it is stupid and unnecessary.

Then second sentence is wrong, strafing on foot is faster and more agile than on horse (you can't strafe but only rotate on horse)

How does that contradict my point in any way whatsoever? As long as the footman doesn't have winged sandals a la Hermes, you will still be able to consistently bump the footman in close quarters, simply because there is nothing aside from countermovement stopping you from doing so, and countermovement can only take you so far.

plus if you don't have a speed bonus it's insanely hard to bump or keep bumping the enemy

... If you have a light horse, it becomes slightly harder than with a heavy horse, I agree. Then again, light cavalry is not meant for close quarters combat, meaning you probably shouldn't go this route if you have a courser. If you have a warhorse, you can bump all you want until the cows come home.

(if you've ever fight archers 1vs1 that's the case when they'll just circle you untill your horse die to arrows)

...  I can honestly say that never happens to me, or anyone I know that has been playing the game for more than a week. An archer in melee is insanely disadvantaged, horse or no horse. 

bump damage is also for reasone of balance very limited, which makes the case bumping the enemy to death kind of non-sense (consider armor as example).

Why the heck would you bump someone to death? You bump so they stagger and become unable to block, then you slash them in the face. Bump-slash, I believe it's called.

And I doubt that aliens on alpha centaurii have something to do with the topic...

They have everything to do with the topic, since pretty much all we're doing is tossing bits of speculation at eachother as if it were fact. The notion of aliens in alpha centauri is an illustration of how absurd it is to present an untested theory and then instantly follow it up by saying "This is a fact". I could exchange aliens in alpha centauri for leprechauns in my basement, if you want.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Assuming head on, the dismounted lancer has the range advantage (this isn't speculation, this is fact, and this is what I meant when I declared it as fact earlier.) And if the mounted lancer tries to lance off to the side (which is certainly the right move in this case) the dismounted lancer can just block it easily. If the mounted lancer tries to come in and bump the dismounted lancer the dismounted lancer can just stab him and kill him.

There is no situation where the dismounted lancer is at a disadvantage, so long as it is 1v1.

Come up with a strategy for the mounted lancer and I can tell you a stupidly easy way to counter it. Unless the dismounted lancer is just bad he's not going to be killed. He might not kill the lancer because the lancer can just ride off, but he certainly isn't going to be killed himself. The best course of action would be for the mounted lancer to dismount and fight the guy he just dismounted on foot, which is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

Again, this assumes a 1v1. The best course of action in a team fight is to just ignore the dismounted lancer. Which is still a bit silly since he should be battered, beaten up and vulnerable.

 

[Sovereignty]

Assuming head on, the dismounted lancer has the range advantage (this isn't speculation, this is fact, and this is what I meant when I declared it as fact earlier.)

That wasn't the fact-declaration I was critizising, though. Or rather, I was, but not on those grounds. I was critizising that because it's entirely irrelevant since it wouldn't happen unless the horseman has suffered a mental breakdown.

And if the mounted lancer tries to lance off to the side (which is certainly the right move in this case) the dismounted lancer can just block it easily. If the mounted lancer tries to come in and bump the dismounted lancer the dismounted lancer can just stab him and kill him.

... How can the dismounted lancer block and stab at the same time?

There is no situation where the dismounted lancer is at a disadvantage, so long as it is 1v1.

Every situation gives the mounted lancer an advantage versus the dismounted lancer, 1on1 or otherwise.

Come up with a strategy for the mounted lancer and I can tell you a stupidly easy way to counter it. Unless the dismounted lancer is just bad he's not going to be killed. He might not kill the lancer because the lancer can just ride off, but he certainly isn't going to be killed himself. The best course of action would be for the mounted lancer to dismount and fight the guy he just dismounted on foot, which is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

Come up with a strategy for the dismounted lancer and I can tell you a stupidly easy way to counter it. Unless the mounted lancer is just bad he's not going to be killed.
He might not kill the dismounted lancer because the dismounted lancer can just block, but he certainly isn't going to be killed himself. The best course of action would be for the mounted lancer to stay on his horse and keep harassing the spearman until he fails to block, or to bumpslash him to death, which is entirely reasonable if you ask me.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Charge head on and your horse will get stabbed.
Pull away and stab to the side and your stab will be blocked.
Charge in and try to bump slash and you'll get your **** ripped open.
Run away and you won't get the kill (though won't be dying.)

Now if the dismounted lancer is new or not using common sense you might get the kill, but you aren't going to be defeating any decent player any time soon. They won't be killing you either since guys on foot can't be offensive to people on horseback, but you won't be getting the kill. This is from 550 - 600 hours of gameplay.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

There is one advantage to forcing a fellow cavalryman off his horse though, he is far less dangerous than if he was chasing you on his horse, or at least you gain the ablity to keep away from him and engage at you whim. While this may not be useful it's it a one on one on a dueling server, in the majority of other modes this isn't as much of a problem due to the presence of teammates, thus allowing him to either be distracted by them or killed by them altogether, and the chance that there are throwing weapons around or you having equiped throwing weapons from the start.
That said, the footman with a long pointy stick is dangerous to horseman, there is no question about that. Infantry has always been dangerous to cavalry if they are prepared to face them. Although I'm not too sure about the impossibility of defeating an equally skilled player using the same weapons on a horse. I haven't played this in quite a while so this is speculation, but wouldn't thrusting from the side of the horse outreach the person on foot? You're no longer presenting the head of the horse as a target by moving it away from him, and you're outstretched arm is no longer deducted from the head of the horse.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

There is one advantage to forcing a fellow cavalryman off his horse though, he is far less dangerous than if he was chasing you on his horse, or at least you gain the ablity to keep away from him and engage at you whim. While this may not be useful it's it a one on one on a dueling server, in the majority of other modes this isn't as much of a problem due to the presence of teammates, thus allowing him to either be distracted by them or killed by them altogether, and the chance that there are throwing weapons around or you having equiped throwing weapons from the start.
That said, the footman with a long pointy stick is dangerous to horseman, there is no question about that. Infantry has always been dangerous to cavalry if they are prepared to face them. Although I'm not too sure about the impossibility of defeating an equally skilled player using the same weapons on a horse. I haven't played this in quite a while so this is speculation, but wouldn't thrusting from the side of the horse outreach the person on foot? You're no longer presenting the head of the horse as a target by moving it away from him, and you're outstretched arm is no longer deducted from the head of the horse.

Yes, that is the proper way to lance people (though you give up a bit of power lancing to the side) but the person you are lancing can just downblock if they see you are turning way during the lance.

And I also agree that it really isn't much of an issue in a larger battle because you can just run away, it's just counter intuitive and silly. Someone who has just been dehorsed should be injured or somehow negatively impacted by their recent violent earthing.

 

[Swadius 2.0]

Presumably if the horseman had some training of how to fall of his horse safely in a combat situation he would probably be a lot better off than the average lout.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Hmm, you could probably actually put in a game mechanic where if you look to the side and hit E soon enough after being dehorsed you come up standing much the way you do now, but if you fail to do so you end up getting injured or knocked down for much longer.

Meh, too much work. I'd just like to see some damage on dehorsing. It doesn't have to be fatal, but maybe 1/4 damage to health or so. 

 

[Swadius 2.0]

I'd like to see rag dolls activated for two or three seconds after being dehorsed at high speed. Even if it doesn't do much damage, there's still some laughs that will be had.

 

[Sovereignty]

Charge head on and your horse will get stabbed.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Head on charges is not an issue, because only stupid lancers do that. And for the premise to be valid, we need to assume equal skill. If the lancer is stupid, so is the spearman. And the stupid spearman has piss-poor timing and won't be able to use his range advantage, while the lancer can still couch his lance.

Pull away and stab to the side and your stab will be blocked.

If the spearman blocks the lancer's stab, then he won't be able to make a stab of his own, meaning neither party gets damaged - a state that will persist either until the lancer gets sick of it and bumpslashes the spearman to death, or until the spearman gets sick of it and starts stabbing instead of blocking, at which point the lancer has the advantage of mobility.

Charge in and try to bump slash and you'll get your **** ripped open.

Yes, and if you get a driver's license you will invariably die in a car crash.
We obviously aren't getting through to eachother, so let me approach this from a different angle.
Why do I think the lancer has an all-consuming advantage over the spearman in a ride-by scenario?
Mobility, a point which you reject.
Why do you think the spearman has an all-consuming advantage over the lancer in close combat?
Mobility, a point which is suddenly all fine and dandy.
Which is it? Is mobility useless or paramount?

Run away and you won't get the kill (though won't be dying.)

... What? You just made a very distinct argument that the spearman has the advantage, because all he has to do is block ad infinitum, meaning he can never die, even though he won't ever get a kill. So with the spearman, that is an advantage, while for the lancer, it's a disadvantage? Again, which one is it?

Now if the dismounted lancer is new or not using common sense you might get the kill, but you aren't going to be defeating any decent player any time soon.

Now if the mounted lancer is new or not using common sense you might get the kill, but you aren't going to be defeating any decent player any time soon.

...

Actually, I should adjust my approach here as well. Because in case you haven't noticed, pretty much half of what I've written in this thread is simply me quoting the other person verbatim and switching "mounted" for "dismounted" and vice versa, to create an equally valid argument - this is done in an effort to display how little such claims add to the discussion, since they go both ways. Since I'm apparently being a little too cryptic with that whole thing, I'd better just say it out loud. So again - claims that can go both ways are entirely redundant to the matter at hand. Steer clear of them.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

Alright, you still aren't getting it so I'll just set up a scenario. There is a "civil war" battle going on 10 v 10. One guy on each side are horsemen who are kitted out the exact same way, and right at the start they charge at each other. They are both pretty good so they keep fighting and fighting while their teams battle it out. Eventually they are the only ones left. Lancer A dismounts Lancer B. B slides on the ground and pops up with full health and his lance out. Lancer A turns around and finds that Lancer B is already ready to fight again.

Finally, lets assume that this round has no time limit for some ungodly reason. (it's just a hypothetical to illustrate the problem)

What is the best way for Lancer A to kill Lancer B and end this round?

If you answered anything other than "dismount and fight him on foot" then you don't know much about combat in this game! On horseback there are three basic ways that Lancer A could try to kill Lancer B. He could:

1. Try to charge straight in and lance. This is terrible for reasons both you and I know and isn't actually viable in this situation.
2. Lance off to the side. This is the proper way to lance anyone, really. However, your opponent can just downblock indefinitely and so this will never actually kill a good aware opponent.
3. Move in and bump-slash the opponent with a melee weapon. Whenever you try to do this the opponent will just either pull out his melee weapon and kill you or else just kill you with the lance he has in his hands. Unless you are an exceptionally good swordsman on horseback, the guy on foot has the advantage against you 1v1.

If you are lucky and switch between the methods a lot then eventually, if your opponent is stupid, you might be able to catch him switch weapons or something. However, if both players are good this is not likely to happen. I find these situations, when there is a time limit, usually end up in a stalemate if neither side is particularly impetuous.

Assuming you HAVE to end this match though, the best way to kill the dismounted lancer has now been to dismount and let melee fighting decide the outcome. Which is fine and dandy, except that there is literally no difference between the two lancers now. At the very least Lancer B, who lost the "lancing" portion of this fight, should have a health disadvantage against Lancer A.

Really though this is a minor issue, as much as I'm arguing about it. It's not exactly game breaking since very rarely does this situation come up, and even when it does people are either hasty and so get themselves killed, or else they are careful and the match ends in a draw in a minute or two.

 

[MimiCry]

Disagree.

1)
Yes, lances are deadly against straight forward frontal Kamikaze - riders.
Most Horsemen are killed by their own speed/stupidity, not by the lance.
Once the Lancer is dehorsed, all you have to do is to slowly circle around, increase decrease distance and bump-slash him with the horse.
It takes a while, but there is little he can do against it.
The lance is easy to block and (if you don't throw yourself onto it at full speed) does little damage.
Slow is everything you need to defeat a lancer on foot.

2)
The Lance is a terrible melee weapon (compared to other pikes).
Your teammates will toast him.

 

[Horsa]

spin thrust with lance any horse will make it rear even if from very slow speed.

 

[Bardo_S]

I agree, no using lances as pikes!
Something is wrong if you go "Damn" after killing your enemies horse.