lighting fast 2hand weapon?

[greedogre]

is there a plan to address 2hand weapon speed? 2hand weapon already have reach advantage is it really need to give a speed advantage for it to dominate at all range? not mention they can be carry by archer as well.

 

[Moton]

Yeah, Khans guards are some of the best melee units. Funny thing is that Palentine guards used to be great aswell but now their weapon selection doesent work or whatever so they only use their swords wich have made them real bad as melee units.

 

[greedogre]

well atually i was taking about skirmish mode, anyway food for thought.

 

[hoonii]

Stance and what side you're swinging from affects the speed of the weapon, if you get it right you will out spam 1 handed swords with 2 handers. If your right foot is in front your right swings will be faster and vice versa(can be changed with a d keys).

 

[greedogre]

this is especially bad when you team's archer get compeletly dominate by other team, while you focrecd to play shield class or raised shiled all time to combat 2hander

again it's not a single issue, if you can nerf archers projectile speed i guess i wouldnt mind 2hander be such op state. but certain senario make the whole game combat system collapsed, not fun at all somtime

 

[Johann Brahms]

This is not a real problem.

Have you tried to force people to with one-handed weapons and shields to respect "your turn" in combat with a menavlion? When you're getting attacked by a 1 hander at close range, it feels way too slow if you've ever had to use it against a competent player at close range. But if someone with a menav is feinting against someone who doesn't know how to block at all, then it might seem like it's "too fast" or unbalanced. We are speaking, by the way, after the menav has already been nerfed hard--mentioning this if someone is reading in the distant future. Of course the menav is one of the slower 2 handers.

Are you personally successful when using a 2-handed weapon against someone with a sword and shield? My anecdotal experience is that the people who complain the most that 2 handers are easy mode are generally the ones who never use them because they can't block without a shield. You're overestimating how useful a reach advantage is when people with shields can easily get within and stay within reach and facehug you. If someone is consistently beating you with a 2 hander the odds are they would consistently beat you when using a sword and shield.

Players can sometimes use combination of footwork, feints, regular attacks, and predictions of when their opponent is going to feint to get a hit in when it's technically the other guy's turn to attack, one handed weapons are objectively faster so the only one of these where the 2 hander has an advantage is in distance and damage. Go play skirmish mode for a few rounds with a 2 hander, then a few rounds with a sword and shield, tell me which one you personally score higher with and then tell me your conclusion about which one is easier to play with.

Miscellaneous note but the alternative use and absence of hyphens with the compound adjectives here is intentional.

 

[Mushbeast]

I've played against Greedogre on TDM a few times, he's a good player and from what I remember I saw him using both shield infantry and two handed weapons. I'm not sure what game or how long you've played to come to the conclusion that weapons like the menavilion are balanced. It's not that strong in a 1v1 situation, but because of the nature of the class itself, a person with a menavilion can stay out of your range and just pelt you with attacks until you slip up once, or the crush through inevitably gets you. There seems to be no point face-hugging either as the pole itself will pretty much one shot you.

Maybe they're not as big of an issue in Skirmish, but for any other mode where you can amass a pack of them, they become unbelievably OP, and are better anti-cav weapons than pikes or spears. Anyway, I like the two-handers in general being fast, but they should definitely speed the swing up of one-handed swords a lot too because they just feel slow and clunky to play with.

 

[hoonii]

I've played against Greedogre on TDM a few times, he's a good player and from what I remember I saw him using both shield infantry and two handed weapons. I'm not sure what game or how long you've played to come to the conclusion that weapons like the menavilion are balanced. It's not that strong in a 1v1 situation, but because of the nature of the class itself, a person with a menavilion can stay out of your range and just pelt you with attacks until you slip up once, or the crush through inevitably gets you. There seems to be no point face-hugging either as the pole itself will pretty much one shot you.

Maybe they're not as big of an issue in Skirmish, but for any other mode where you can amass a pack of them, they become unbelievably OP, and are better anti-cav weapons than pikes or spears. Anyway, I like the two-handers in general being fast, but they should definitely speed the swing up of one-handed swords a lot too because they just feel slow and clunky to play with.

Lemme tell you the skirmish menavlion meta:
Have your legionary friend occupy the enemy and spam the enemy with upswing menavlion while staying out of range. You will either get a crushthrough or hit him when his shield is down for 90 headshot damage.

 

[Johann Brahms]

I've played against Greedogre on TDM a few times, he's a good player and from what I remember I saw him using both shield infantry and two handed weapons.

Your judgement on this is going to be based on your own skill relative to him and I don't know if you're a good player or not so this doesn't necessarily mean much--it might, I don't know, that's the point.

He claimed in the original post "2hand weapon already have reach advantage is it really need to give a speed advantage for it to dominate at all range." It is objectively false that 2 handers are faster than 1 handed weapons and that would be clear from a glance at the statistics of the voulge as compared to any single-handed sword in the game, the one handers are faster. There isn't a way you can abuse the physics of the game which are unique to two handers which would contradict the reality of what's listed on their weapon statistics. They aren't lightning fast, they're slower. The voulge doesn't even have a significant reach advantage, it just hits hard.

I'm not sure what game or how long you've played to come to the conclusion that weapons like the menavilion are balanced. It's not that strong in a 1v1 situation, but because of the nature of the class itself, a person with a menavilion can stay out of your range and just pelt you with attacks until you slip up once, or the crush through inevitably gets you. There seems to be no point face-hugging either as the pole itself will pretty much one shot you.

The only aspect of 2 handers that is unfair is the crush through, I've personally OPed a thread complaining about the issue so I can't do much more than agree with you here. Shields are arguably unfair in that it requires no skill to continually block an attack from any direction until the shield finally breaks. The crush through crutch, by the way, almost never works on the menavlion, you usually only get it with the long or heavy menavlion which are especially ****ty in 1v1 combat. They are annoying to deal with in a 2v1, but dealing with two people with shields can also be annoying, they might not have crush through but they have their own crutch.

Maybe they're not as big of an issue in Skirmish, but for any other mode where you can amass a pack of them, they become unbelievably OP, and are better anti-cav weapons than pikes or spears. Anyway, I like the two-handers in general being fast, but they should definitely speed the swing up of one-handed swords a lot too because they just feel slow and clunky to play with.

Sounds like you're complaining that people wail with reckless abandon at each other with 2 handers in siege mode or whatever when you have two groups of 10 people in a narrow passageway? That behavior would change significantly if Taleworlds finally implemented a ****ing 1% reflexive damage on teamhits or anything at all to discourage people from swinging through each other, which is a really bad habit to get into if there's ever a game mode which doesn't permit that, which there is; but that would discourage the casual players who aren't playing multiplayer anyways so I guess let's not do that, right?

 

[Mushbeast]

Your judgement on this is going to be based on your own skill relative to him and I don't know if you're a good player or not so this doesn't necessarily mean much--it might, I don't know, that's the point.

That's true, I was just chiming in that he's not some noob complaining that he's getting wrecked; he knows what he's doing and in my opinion has a very valid point about (certain) 2handers.

He claimed in the original post "2hand weapon already have reach advantage is it really need to give a speed advantage for it to dominate at all range." It is objectively false that 2 handers are faster than 1 handed weapons and that would be clear from a glance at the statistics of the voulge as compared to any single-handed sword in the game, the one handers are faster. There isn't a way you can abuse the physics of the game which are unique to two handers which would contradict the reality of what's listed on their weapon statistics. They aren't lightning fast, they're slower. The voulge doesn't even have a significant reach advantage, it just hits hard.

You make some good points and after having a quick check, you're right about the swing speed stats being lower. I can't help but feel like the combination of fast run speed, the "spin-to-win" technique and the sheer length of the menavlion kind of negates this though. Couple that with the small extra stun you get from shields and it can feel like it's much faster. Anyway, I don't find the menavlion too fast myself, but it's definitely too fast for the amount of damage it puts out.

The only aspect of 2 handers that is unfair is the crush through, I've personally OPed a thread complaining about the issue so I can't do much more than agree with you here. Shields are arguably unfair in that it requires no skill to continually block an attack from any direction until the shield finally breaks. The crush through crutch, by the way, almost never works on the menavlion, you usually only get it with the long or heavy menavlion which are especially ****ty in 1v1 combat. They are annoying to deal with in a 2v1, but dealing with two people with shields can also be annoying, they might not have crush through but they have their own crutch.

Yeah we can definitely agree on the crush-through issue, you'd be crazy not to
I find the analogy with the shields a bit far-fetched, as it's exactly what you'd expect from a shield and it's purely defensive (give or take a few shield bashes) and to some extent shields can be considered under-powered.

Sounds like you're complaining that people wail with reckless abandon at each other with 2 handers in siege mode or whatever when you have two groups of 10 people in a narrow passageway? That behavior would change significantly if Taleworlds finally implemented a ****ing 1% reflexive damage on teamhits or anything at all to discourage people from swinging through each other, which is a really bad habit to get into if there's ever a game mode which doesn't permit that, which there is; but that would discourage the casual players who aren't playing multiplayer anyways so I guess let's not do that, right?

Hell yeah reflective damage would help a lot! It's just absolute chaos at the moment and that would help tremendously. However I feel like if you're gonna make the menavlion such a beast of a weapon, give some love to spears. Even the longest spear is hardly longer than the menav (just gonna say I haven't checked the stats so I may be wrong) and will get out-distanced by the overhead swing of a menav, and should you land a hit you'll probably hit for a max of 50hp, and that's very lucky at that. The only weapon I've had a good time punishing menav infantry is with the pike, however that does **** all damage and once they've closed the distance you're done for.

All in all, I think we agree on a lot of points, though we still have our own views on the menav. (It's OP brah!!!)

 

[greedogre]

This is not a real problem.

Have you tried to force people to with one-handed weapons and shields to respect "your turn" in combat with a menavlion? When you're getting attacked by a 1 hander at close range, it feels way too slow if you've ever had to use it against a competent player at close range. But if someone with a menav is feinting against someone who doesn't know how to block at all, then it might seem like it's "too fast" or unbalanced. We are speaking, by the way, after the menav has already been nerfed hard--mentioning this if someone is reading in the distant future. Of course the menav is one of the slower 2 handers.

Are you personally successful when using a 2-handed weapon against someone with a sword and shield? My anecdotal experience is that the people who complain the most that 2 handers are easy mode are generally the ones who never use them because they can't block without a shield. You're overestimating how useful a reach advantage is when people with shields can easily get within and stay within reach and facehug you. If someone is consistently beating you with a 2 hander the odds are they would consistently beat you when using a sword and shield.

Players can sometimes use combination of footwork, feints, regular attacks, and predictions of when their opponent is going to feint to get a hit in when it's technically the other guy's turn to attack, one handed weapons are objectively faster so the only one of these where the 2 hander has an advantage is in distance and damage. Go play skirmish mode for a few rounds with a 2 hander, then a few rounds with a sword and shield, tell me which one you personally score higher with and then tell me your conclusion about which one is easier to play with.

Miscellaneous note but the alternative use and absence of hyphens with the compound adjectives here is intentional.

firstly i dont wanna go to a **** measuring contest, i was long time ago one of the best player in oceanic region, i mention this only is to justify i understand the basic combat mechnism of the game.

secondly my experence align with hoonli in skirmish mode, in team battle with class movement speed boost and directional shiled blocking which introduce in bannerlord, combine with reach buff about 30%-50% across the borad compare to warband, make it insansly strong in small group fight, ofc in more orgnise clan fight shielder can easily isolate and fast kill 2hander by exploit a simply fact that 2h cant block 2 attack at 2 direction. but again am not talking about clan fight, am talking about average solo queue skirmish experence. movement speed in my opinion is something should alway be equally among all classes , it affect way too much on a game that base everything on positioning and speed.

if am in a last stand 1v1 situation and the other side depand on the weapon for example menavlion, you have to ditch your shield because 1.it will get break very fast 2. the moment speed penalty from shield plus class different make you impossible get in a strike position. if you let a shield raised opponent get in closed range with 2hander class you simply have no idea what you are doing, and even you get closed enough, kick is still very powerfully tool as defence measure since heavy with shield dont move well at all.

and lastly crushthrough, if you do a 1h against 2h in current patch, crushthrough is something you have to take into account it's still happen way to often in a dueling situation, and group fight with certain weapon again such as menavlion it can practice crushthrough in a literily unpunishable range.

damge is something can not be ignore as well, most 2h can 2-3hit all heavy infantry, that if you take a archer class often will land one shot pior to the engement then it only require 1 hit to close the deal, the archer's projectile speed i didnt check but feel way faster in warband as result make it easier to land and more dmg... yes if you chose archer you give up on class speed boost, but archer with acess of 2hander is way too much of utiliy.

the title is for eye graping. the problem for me is many of game decison is not theortically sound, current skirmish is repetive to said the least. you know the outcome just by looking at the class people take. what i suggest of 2hander is to make shock troop only good at small group fight, ideally give them real shield and 1h weapon, and deny the access of archers 2h weapon. Because so far with eveything as it were, certain senario in skirmish feel very depressing. if you can come up with better solution am happy to hear it.