Leveling up your character decreases your skill learning rate for all skills

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Take all endurance options in char creation, because riding skill is useful. Get the HP perks. And you're done. You character is as good as it can be. Sorry.
There's no way this can be what they wanted, what they described in the game play demo/interviews. They described it much more skyrim/fallout like and it sounded like it was intended to have more freedom.

 

[White Ahroun]

Take all endurance options in char creation, because riding skill is useful. Get the HP perks. And you're done. You character is as good as it can be. Sorry.
There's no way this can be what they wanted, what they described in the game play demo/interviews. They described it much more skyrim/fallout like and it sounded like it was intended to have more freedom.

Some min-maxing bull**** right here. I ain't saying the system is perfect as is, but I swear some of you guys are playing the wrong type of game. This is the kind of **** you're concerned about when you play Dark Souls, not M&B.

 

[mamastoast]

tbh I like that it discourages the leveling of "easier" skills just to level up and fain faster progress towards other skills. This process just feels wrong on so many levels and I always hated this in similar leveling mechanics.

Now the way they discourage it is definitely not optimally and comes with its own set of problems, but the whole system requires tuning first anyway.

That makes sense... You shouldnt be using polearms to increase your 1 handed skill later... But that's what the system encourages. Aslong as you rely on attr/focus points to level up your skills, and those points can only be gained by raising said skills, it creates a loop... You should be gaining Attr/focus prom a global xp progression.

 

[mamastoast]

Some min-maxing bull**** right here. I ain't saying the system is perfect as is, but I swear some of you guys are playing the wrong type of game. This is the kind of **** you're concerned about when you play Dark Souls, not M&B.

It's a game with deep RPG mechanis.. character progression is core to the series... People wouldn't have to figure out how to game the system if the system encouraged a sensible way of playing, which it doesn't. IF the only way to increase my vigor/focus is to level up and I can't level up because I can't get skills increases because my vigor/focus is too low... what am I supposed to do?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Some min-maxing bull**** right here. I ain't saying the system is perfect as is, but I swear some of you guys are playing the wrong type of game. This is the kind of **** you're concerned about when you play Dark Souls, not M&B.

Nope, in M&B warband you can go full surgeon/engineer and have 14 int skills super fast and **** the AI kings up in ways they can't possibly imagine, make female char and get free castle garrisons for life. It's so good.

 

[White Ahroun]

Nope, in M&B warband you can go full surgeon/engineer and have 14 int skills super fast and **** the AI kings up in ways they can't possibly imagine, make female char and get free castle garrisons for life. It's so good.

I can go out and hook up with six women in six hours. That doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[GitiUsir]

The mechanic is counterintuitive and not described anywhere.

Based on research done by people in this reddit thread: link

The formula for skill learning rate is:
LearningRate = 20 / ( 10 + HeroLevel) * (1 + 0.4 * Attribute + Focus)

As you see the learning rate of Smithing, the skill I didn't even use yet on this character, dropped from 4.00 to 2.59 (which is -35%), simply because my character leveled from level 1 to level 7 by fighting looters... Very demotivating...

It makes no sense to reduce learning rate with player level. Instead focus points should be the main factor, they are limited by levels so you shoudn't be able to develop a skill without focus points. I suppose the higher the level the more exp you need to level up so you can't get focus points for all skills.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I can go out and hook up with six women in six hours. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Yeah you'd have to waste points on charisma

 

[Flet]

What makes it worse is that this will actively encourage you to avoid gaining skill levels in skills that automatically level through use. For example, imagine scouring the map for a scout companion to make party scout while constantly saving and reloading any time you accidentally discover a hide out and gain skill levels in scouting. Or saving and reloading to keep your surgery skill from raising while looking for a doctor companion, just because you dont want wasted points lowering your multiplier.

Unless you have the option to disable certain skills from gaining exp it will be a big mess. Its also a nerf to tournaments in a sense since gaining levels in weapons you dont use under this system drains your potential with the weapons you do use.

Honestly they should just rework the whole thing. Remove skill leveling through use. Give a generic exp bar and levelups and focus points. Make it like warband, only even removing weapon skills. Instead weapon skills are skills you level up now too. Then you can make the character the way you want it with out these kinds of tedious considerations.

 

[Negative]

**** that's a pirceless discovery if true.
Now it feels even more as if someone took the wrong path sometime ago and is now trying to force his way through instead of simply accepting his error and turn back. I mean how many screws are there now to fiddle around with XP rates? And all because someone thought the old way of exponentially more costly levels and only marginally better payoffs from higher skills was to simple or something...

 

[Nikomakkos]

Yeah you'd have to waste points on charisma

Perhaps if he'd wasted some points on charisma he would still be here, who knows?

 

[banzaiee]

Welp there goes my ambitions to turn my unshaven Vlandian rude boy in to a charming MF-er. Think I'll try and Aserai next. With a moustache, a long waxy one. I agree though, wholeheartedly. Levelling now feels slower than it has to be and somewhat of a tedium.

 

[Beau Vine]

As you see the learning rate of Smithing, the skill I didn't even use yet on this character, dropped from 4.00 to 2.59 (which is -35%), simply because my character leveled from level 1 to level 7 by fighting looters... Very demotivating...

Those screens tell me you're really into this aspect, that is a kick-ass character. But as a fellow munchkin, I have to say I do like what it forces. If you tried to specc to these skills after staying in city and clicking the damn charcoal burner timer over and over, you'd have a much tougher time vs the gameplay where you went out with your Banner and brought fire and sword to those bandits!

This IMO makes for potentially fun way for mechanics to favour specialization while at the same time permitting late game change of direction, but then it's still hard and not a power creep boredom, a common issue in cRPGs (cough FO4).

 

[Durzac]

So in conclusion we need what other RPGs have:
The whole leveling system needs an overhaul. Perks need to be more impactful (and actually work), the levelling needs to be quicker and have more options and the learning limit needs to be adapted/removed.
And we need seperate trees for Simulation and world map stuff. (E.g: Combat tree, Leadership tree, civic tree)

 

[vemerce]

The mechanic is counterintuitive and not described anywhere.

Based on research done by people in this reddit thread: link

The formula for skill learning rate is:
LearningRate = 20 / ( 10 + HeroLevel) * (1 + 0.4 * Attribute + Focus)

The first part 20 / ( 10 + HeroLevel) is presented as "Base" in skill learning tooltip, and it acts as multiplier to the whole learning rate.
It means that:
- hero at level 10 will have (base 1.00) and will get xp -45% slower than hero at level 1 (base 1.82)
- hero at level 20 will have (base 0.66) and will get xp another -33% slower than at level 10 (base 1.00).

The counterintuitive thing is that it scales down with character level, which means character gaining skill levels in one skill, enough to level up, causes his learning rate to drop for all skills. It is counterintuitive, because player may want to level up easier skills to accumulate attribute points and focus points, so then he can learn some harder skill at increased rate. But with current formula before he accumulates these points, his learning rate will already drop from just leveling itself. Which to be honest has demotivated me quite a lot when I learned about it...

I understand that player progression should be harder for high level characters but for that, we already have skill learning rate getting lower the closer you are to learning limits, and also xp required for each level getting higher with each level. Having learning rate of skill you didn't even use yet, drop with your character level, it just as counterintuitive as it could be.

And because every good thread deserves screenshots:
Here is my character at level 1 and level 7:

As you see the learning rate of Smithing, the skill I didn't even use yet on this character, dropped from 4.00 to 2.59 (which is -35%), simply because my character leveled from level 1 to level 7 by fighting looters... Very demotivating...

I could understand the skills working this way, if this game were like Warband and previous M&B titles, where your character was immortal and you had forever to conquer everything... But, in Bannerlord's case, this game doesn't need mechanics that slow down learning. Your character has a shelf life and will die, leaving you to pick up another character to continue playing. You should be able to reasonably learn whatever skills you want on the "heir" you take over, and not be setup for failure to where you're bound to die of old age every time before you can max out skills.

I said it in another thread too, but "Learning Limits" need to go. Focus points are great for increasing the speed you learn skills, but every skill should be able to continue leveling at a greatly reduced speed. You shouldn't be limited to sucking with a One Handed Weapon forever, even if you've invested hundreds of hours into using one, just because you originally fought with Polearms and worked your skills to be a master Smith. It should always go up, just slower than what you've focused on.

 

[iimstevo]

The mechanic is counterintuitive and not described anywhere.

Based on research done by people in this reddit thread: link

The formula for skill learning rate is:
LearningRate = 20 / ( 10 + HeroLevel) * (1 + 0.4 * Attribute + Focus)

The first part 20 / ( 10 + HeroLevel) is presented as "Base" in skill learning tooltip, and it acts as multiplier to the whole learning rate.
It means that:
- hero at level 10 will have (base 1.00) and will get xp -45% slower than hero at level 1 (base 1.82)
- hero at level 20 will have (base 0.66) and will get xp another -33% slower than at level 10 (base 1.00).

The counterintuitive thing is that it scales down with character level, which means character gaining skill levels in one skill, enough to level up, causes his learning rate to drop for all skills. It is counterintuitive, because player may want to level up easier skills to accumulate attribute points and focus points, so then he can learn some harder skill at increased rate. But with current formula before he accumulates these points, his learning rate will already drop from just leveling itself. Which to be honest has demotivated me quite a lot when I learned about it...

I understand that player progression should be harder for high level characters but for that, we already have skill learning rate getting lower the closer you are to learning limits, and also xp required for each level getting higher with each level. Having learning rate of skill you didn't even use yet, drop with your character level, it just as counterintuitive as it could be.

And because every good thread deserves screenshots:
Here is my character at level 1 and level 7:

As you see the learning rate of Smithing, the skill I didn't even use yet on this character, dropped from 4.00 to 2.59 (which is -35%), simply because my character leveled from level 1 to level 7 by fighting looters... Very demotivating...

Sweet post... I was wondering why it was so infinitely difficult to actually level up one hitting around level 17... I'm out of skill points to allocate (and attribute points don't even provide an increment to level cap), so I'm essentially "max level" at level 17, massively short of my companions' skill levels, and opposition lords/ladies.

While I think it should slow down as you grow older, it should be based on you actually growing older, and not being based on your level.
I also feel that your character starts too old, before you know it, you're 35 and unable to have children (for some reason), so your faction is doomed since you can't marry off your brother.

It'd be nice to see something like:
Player age : Learning Base rate multiplier
(Start)
16: 8.00
18: 7.00
20: 5.50
23: 4.00
25: 3.00
27: 1.50
30: 1.00
33: 0.50
35+ : 0.00

This way, as a "kid" you learn things far quicker (as you do in real life), and as you get older, you get more stuck in your ways, and are unable to learn things as easily (which again, is more of a reflection of real life).
By the point in which you're 35, your rate of learning is almost finished, as the old saying goes "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Oh and...each skill level shouldn't have an increased experience requirement over the previous. It should be a consistent requirement (as should levelling) so that what you're doing to refine your skills is the same each time, not forever moving the goal posts further and further back every time you complete a goal.

 

[Flet]

This is annoying. Just today i found myself trying to reach a skill breakpoint for a perk before learning multiplier decreased. This system requires a lot of tedium. If you level up too fast you run into the cap and so cant easily grab the 25 level perks for things with out investing focus points into them. But if instead right at the start of the game you specifically avoid leveling your main skills you can level up these other skills. The result is that the system, that claims to be some kind of enabler for freer play, dictates to you the very order you must raise skills in through its mechanics.

Some skills will raise some automatically. Surgery for example will raise and there is nothing you can do about it. This would not be so bad if you were guaranteed to get it to 25 for the first perk, which is useful, but given the way this level multiplier decreases as you level, this is only possible if you rush grind it to 25 early on. Otherwise you get it hard capped out at some level between 0 and 25, and what good does it do you then? Its simply skill levels that contribute to your overall level, thus harming the potential maximums for the skills you do intend to focus on.

Likewise trade now raises, albeit slowly, even if you are just selling things you loot from looters. While reaching trade 25 before it hard caps would at least be acceptable, some way to prevent unwanted skills from even raising should be added (assuming we keep the current system, which we really shouldn't).

The +hitpoint perks on melee weapons are another example of this, though it is easier to avoid raising those skills unwanted if you avoid tournaments entirely, a thing which i doubt the developers wanted to encourage people do, but here we are.

The overall flow of optimal character building then will be to try and gain 25 in these unavoidable skills to get some 'benefit breakpoint' of the first perk (which requires raising your main skills as little as possible) and then rush to hard cap them by grinding your primary skills to gain enough levels to lock them in at 25 (sine accidentally reaching 26 in them is, again, harming the maximum potential of your primary skills levels)

A terrible result. This is an emergent property of the convergence of mechanic bloat from an overly complex skill levelup system. The best option is to simplify the whole thing

 

[paladinx333]

The new 1.1.0 beta promises better leveling for you and your companions. I have not tried it myself and I have no idea how well it works. Some report that it seems to work better.

 

[Maximum997]

Perks are still unbalanced. For example polearms. They are kinda garbage. +30% couch lance damage when it already does 400+.
And you get +15 speed and damage for 250 skills on that. It is sad.

Whole progression is unbalanced, becouse you feel no difference between 0 and 250.

 

[Flet]

The new 1.1.0 beta promises better leveling for you and your companions. I have not tried it myself and I have no idea how well it works. Some report that it seems to work better.

you level a lot faster in the beta which is nice, but it still doesnt address the fact that the universal multiplier decrease on levelup shoehorns the order you must raise skills if you want to be optimal, in fact it makes it worse since its very easy to level up a lot now early on and get skills that you can not avoid gaining some levels in at the start like scouting or surgery hard capped at skill level 13 or something uselessly, which does nothing but reduce the total maximum level you will be able to obtain on your main skills