Leveling system still unenjoyable and unbalanced

[redmark]

Okay...what follows was directed to someone else, as I read it, but for what it's worth you get that I was referencing that increasing skills increases your level which slows my ability to advance in other skills, right?

It's a lot less messy and I thought clear within the context of the thread how I said it first, at least I thought so.

Ah, I wasn't responding to the other point, I was quoting it back to illustrate mine to you (I should have used a : rather than a . ), that raw experience from doing anything is what increases level.

But I still disagree slightly with that basic point: it's not levelling your skills which increases level, it's doing anything - playing the game (the passing of time, essentially). Yes, doing things also of course increases your skills - but A incrementing both B and C doesn't that mean B is incrementing C (particularly when B and C are incremented by different formulae). If levelling up was influenced by XP modified by learning rate, that I think would be the penalty to the player you're describing.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

Correct the larger the party the faster leadership grows. If I'm not mistaken it's the same way for leading armies. But even so with leading a huge party and large army it's pitifully slow.

Most of the ways to increase leadership come available later in the game, too, so you'll be higher level and get even fewer increases to the skill.

No wonder I still have yet to have a character actually upgrade bandit troops to faction troops, even with having intentionally designed characters to pursue nothing but that. I mean, maybe if not for the updates and restarting...but that still gives me enough playing time that with intention I should be able to reach just that perk?

I think this thread has nailed exactly why I get bored and abandon most of my characters before they even reach the late game, but definitely by that point. I can deal with the endless wars, just not the endless grinding made monotonous by ever less progress.

 

[AnandaShanti]

What I don't like also is the needles layers of non-beneficial complexity in the leveling system. Let me start with what's good and then show the layers where it goes wrongs.

1: You use a skill in game and it raises, giving an advantage and lettings you choose perks and it takes much longer to raise higher and levels.
^THIS is a complete char-dev system. This alone is enough. Your choices and time in game = your character's advantage. If you wanna bust your bunz trying to max out many things before you character dies, that's your business in a single player game. Really, this is all they need.

2: You must spec into skill via FP and attributes to learn them. More = faster learning
Okay sounds fair.....

3: You must use 5fp and +8 (10)attributes to reach the highest skill caps
WHAT? Now there's skill caps? Why not just faster and slower learning, why have hard caps?

4: You gain +1 attribute every 4th level
That's gonna take a lot levels to max out the things I want! But I guess it's a looooooong game.....

5: Every level up of character reduces you learning speed for all skills.
What? Why? Why am I punished for leveling up? I guess it's to encourage min/maxing and only raising the skill I really want

6: Exp to level up is the same even if you don't invests into skill, you level up just as fast from their actions, no min/max allowed
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw ****, this is the most trolly obnoxious char dev system I've ever seen!

 

[black_bulldog]

What I don't like also is the needles layers of non-beneficial complexity in the leveling system. Let me start with what's good and then show the layers where it goes wrongs.

1: You use a skill in game and it raises, giving an advantage and lettings you choose perks and it takes much longer to raise higher and levels.
^THIS is a complete char-dev system. This alone is enough. Your choices and time in game = your character's advantage. If you wanna bust your bunz trying to max out many things before you character dies, that's your business in a single player game. Really, this is all they need.

2: You must spec into skill via FP and attributes to learn them. More = faster learning
Okay sounds fair.....

3: You must use 5fp and +8 (10)attributes to reach the highest skill caps
WHAT? Now there's skill caps? Why not just faster and slower learning, why have hard caps?

4: You gain +1 attribute every 4th level
That's gonna take a lot levels to max out the things I want! But I guess it's a looooooong game.....

5: Every level up of character reduces you learning speed for all skills.
What? Why? Why am I punished for leveling up? I guess it's to encourage min/maxing and only raising the skill I really want

6: Exp to level up is the same even if you don't invests into skill, you level up just as fast from their actions, no min/max allowed
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw ****, this is the most trolly obnoxious char dev system I've ever seen!

3. Pretty sure this is a holdover from WB where we got an attribute point as we leveled. But capping skills is very weird. If it was a super high cap like 60+ I could understand it because that would take longer than a character can live but yeah as is it's completely ****ing weird.
4. Yep TW is emphasizing grind. I always felt like WB was grindy but you could get to around level 30 and be pretty effective and if you worked hard it didn't take more than 20-30 hours but I have no idea how long it would take to get to level 30 in this game. 50+ hours? I personally can't play a campaign more than a few hours as it stands right now.
5. Of all the issues with leveling this one has to be the most puzzling and the most punishing for players.
6. I guess TW really hates players and wants to punish them for playing, because I can't see any benefit to doing something like this.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

3. Pretty sure this is a holdover from WB where we got an attribute point as we leveled. But capping skills is very weird. If it was a super high cap like 60+ I could understand it because that would take longer than a character can live but yeah as is it's completely ****ing weird.
4. Yep TW is emphasizing grind. I always felt like WB was grindy but you could get to around level 30 and be pretty effective and if you worked hard it didn't take more than 20-30 hours but I have no idea how long it would take to get to level 30 in this game. 50+ hours? I personally can't play a campaign more than a few hours as it stands right now.
5. Of all the issues with leveling this one has to be the most puzzling and the most punishing for players.
6. I guess TW really hates players and wants to punish them for playing, because I can't see any benefit to doing something like this.

In Warband there were caps, but it was a little more complex. In general like this system better than Warband's, but I think resolving the differences is where Taleworlds is turning this one so convoluted. Weapon skills were all increased as you used them, and then you had the Weapon Master skill to increase their caps, as well as being affected by the main attribute if memory serves correct.... I could be wrong about the last one....

The skills were separate, though. Under Strength and Dexterity you didn't go directly to weapon skills, but rather to skills governing them.

So Taleworlds has revamped its systems, and combined these two fairly different systems which on the side of how it relates to other skill development I absolutely love and want to see more opportunities for some certain skills to be applied. But now because it all progresses through use and grinding, there's a change in progression from the steady Attribute and Skill Point selections in Warband. This is their solution, I guess.

What I think would provide a better solution might be to have level influence skill-caps. So a Level 2 character may start to slow at Bow progression around 30, but at Level 20 they won't see progress slow until the skill reaches around 200, maybe. I'd find something along these lines, maybe not my exact but arbitrary numbers here, a lot more agreeable and fun. Most importantly, it would satisfy the cardinal rule for grinding in games -- that it lead to increasing rewards, in this case building an enjoyable character to play and wreck all of Calradia with.

 

[AnandaShanti]

Weapon skills were all increased as you used them, and then you had the Weapon Master skill to increase their caps, as well as being affected by the main attribute if memory serves correct.... I could be wrong about the last one....

OBJECTION!: WM just increased the cap on free weapon skill points you could spend and increased the learning rate for weapon skill in battle to certain skill level, then it dropped onto default rates. You could raise weapon skills forever in combat without any weapon master at all though, WM was noob trap to eat skill point

 

[Berzerker Jay]

OBJECTION!: WM just increased the cap on free weapon skill points you could spend and increased the learning rate for weapon skill in battle to certain skill level, then it dropped onto default rates. You could raise weapon skills forever in combat without any weapon master at all though, WM was noob trap to eat skill point

It was a limit much like what we have now. When you increased Weapons Master, a low skill would increase by multiple points because of the skill's multipliers. Of this I'm positive. I used to focus on that skill to start because of it.

One of my big early-game strategies was to increase Weapons Master and then grab some recruits and take them to the training grounds. Quick way to get some mid-tier troops and advance the different weapons skills.

 

[AnandaShanti]

It was a limit much like what we have now. When you increased Weapons Master, a low skill would increase by multiple points because of the skill's multipliers. Of this I'm positive. I used to focus on that skill to start because of it.

There was no limit to raising weapon skill in combat. You wasted skill points.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

There was no limit to raising weapon skill in combat. You wasted skill points.

Well, I'm open to that I may be wrong -- it has been about a year since I last played -- so I'm installing Warband now.

 

[black_bulldog]

Well, I'm open to that I may be wrong -- it has been about a year since I last played -- so I'm installing Warband now.

There was no limit the only time I put anything into weapon master is if I had points to spare because of high Int builds.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

There was no limit the only time I put anything into weapon master is if I had points to spare because of high Int builds.

Reporting back from testing, I got the skill increase for using the weapon in the very first fight in the opening tutorial sequence. First or second swing of the sword, but I think the first. Beyond that, part of the Weapon Master skill's function is basically reducing the amount of xp necessary to increase from using the skill.

I don't think you understood my other comment on it. I'm not suggesting it's some hard limit and you can't advance past some point, though I'm certain there is a point where it simply stops, but once you get to the soft limit you're talking about such a slow crawl that you won't feasibly reach 300 in any weapon skill without increasing Weapons Master to do so.

 

[AnandaShanti]

is a point where it simply stops, but once you get to the soft limit you're talking about such a slow crawl that you won't feasibly reach 300 in any weapon skill without increasing Weapons Master to do so.

I disagree with you. Also it wasn't even what he was talking about!

3. Pretty sure this is a holdover from WB where we got an attribute point as we leveled. But capping skills is very weird. If it was a super high cap like 60+ I could understand it because that would take longer than a character can live but yeah as is it's completely ****ing weird.

This is about skills being able to be raised to 1/3 of their governing attribute. Not "weapon proficiency" or the weapon master skill.
In warband you would easily gain 30-40 levels in a game, so you could max out 2 of the 4 attributes, This allowed for a lot of variation in which skills you got on the MC. In bannerlord you get about 8 attributes from leveling in a un-modded game, so you can get to 10 in one of the six attribute groups and the rest varied depending on starting choices. It's pretty stingy even just in this respect. Add on the multi layers of skill learning speed depreciation and the lack of any direct benefit from leveling up and it just bottoms out into an awful set up.

 

[Berzerker Jay]

I disagree with you. Also it wasn't even what he was talking about!

Okay, so you disagree. I literally just reinstalled the game and tried it out, so I know perfectly well how wrong you are.

I'm okay with that if you are.