Leveling system still unenjoyable and unbalanced

Does the leveling system SUCK?

  • yes

    Votes: 87 72.5%
  • no

    Votes: 14 11.7%
  • anime tiddies

    Votes: 30 25.0%

  • Total voters
    120

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AndrewArt

Sergeant
It still takes 10,000 years to grind skills to 300. I want to ask, will taleworlds ever actually work on this, or do they think this amount of grinding is enjoyable in any way and makes sense in any way? I am saying this for the last 4-5 patches it feels like, and I am now hopeless. At skill 80 of trade I already need 4,000 exp for measly 1 skill point. With the slow map movement speed I really don't feel like spending so many tens of hours to grind trading until 300. There is just so much repetitive and bland gameplay I can endure for so little sense of progression. For a "fast-paced game", where the battles end in 20 seconds when the troops collide, taleworlds sure love their grinding though! Oh but god forbid that we make battles last longer, but when it comes to leveling it should take 1 IRL year to get to the end of the perk tree! I'm starting to believe that 300 skill is actually unattainable (unless there are exploits that I don't know about), or unless someone is a true masochist. And the whole system is just a 1st april kind of joke. I wonder when will this system receive some love? How many patches must I remind taleworlds that their leveling system is horrid, and it is a core feature in the game? You fix the perks effects, thank you, great. But you don't fix the attainability of perks? It's ridiculous.

Every time I start a new game (every patch I do so), and I'm enthusiastic about playing (they fixed the stuttering on the campaign map finally so that made me happy), I just get reminded of how much of a grindy mess this empty game really is. There is so little to do in the game right now (very repetitive gameplay), and it's so grindy that you can't even dream of having a fun and enjoyable progression with your character with the way things are right now. I don't think tw understands the impact a good rpg system can have on how enjoyable a game is. Right now you can't even roleplay anything but a generic character because you get terribly bored until you get even 100 skill in something. No master tradesman, no master warrior (not even if you spam-use the same 1 type of weapon, but if you want to level the whole 3 weapon types? HA. Good luck with that one. Your character will die of old age, and maybe even YOU will die of old age until you attain such a feat. If the arena gave 100% exp and it wasn't such a "DODGE THE JAVELIN"-fest, maybe we could have a chance to actually train melee combat. But still, the other skills, there is no saving them. What levels scouting? Hell, I don't even notice that skill exists. Want to start leveling athletics? Yeah it's so fun running after routed troops all the time... Charm? I guess I'll just spam a billion quests. Leadership? Nah, don't worry about that until you can create an army, we don't talk about leadership around these parts.

Look, this horrendous leveling pacing was ok at the beginning because the game was so new that a bit of a repetitive gameplay didn't hurt too much. But once you get to know the game really well, then you can see how unenjoyable it actually becomes to play again, especially if you have one specific rpg theme in mind. Oh yea so fun being a bandit, when I'm stuck ransoming prisoners for all my natural and unnatural lifespan.

For me, the game just becomes so unenjoyable when I even approach 100 skill in something, because progression slows down terribly. And if it slows down so badly at 100 skill, then at 200 good luck... The only skill I ever got to 300 was smithing, when it was broken as all hell (you gain less exp now).

I want to ask the players of this forum, has anyone got 300 skill in any other perk than smithing and maybe trading (I think I remember it being easier in the past, but maybe I'm wrong about this), and have you gotten it legitimately? I'd ask for the last 2 patches for new saves, but I'd be afraid nobody would say they have. So I'm asking for the whole of development, did anyone reach 300 skill in anything, and did they enjoy the process?

Is anyone actually enjoying this leveling system right now?

I believe that this system deserves a huge rework, but my question is, because I am getting a bit worried, is TaleWorlds even aware of this issue? Or is this how they intend the gameplay to forever be? If I get an answer, or any small bits of information from devs that may allude to them being conscious that this system is BAD, and that they will do something about it the next patches, my heart will be more at peace with this. But right now I'm starting to think that they actually think it's a good system the way it is, because I see no effort to actually improve it. Not even by changing the numbers of the EXP requirements and the way the focus points and attributes affect leveling speed (2x, 3x etc, which the more you level, the more DECREASE.. fun.). It would be so easy to do. But they're not doing it. So what are they waiting for? Do they want a big rework, which is why they're not meddling with the numbers? (but they sure are happy to keep changing the values of troops and weapons in multiplayer, like that will ever truly balance it...). Or do they just don't see a problem with it right now?
 

CaptainLee

Sergeant Knight
I'm really not fixated on skills getting to 300 or any particularly high level. Companions are there to cover specialised skills after all. Personally I like the slow advancement but yes, I do accept it's likely incongruent with the pace of other elements such as the blink-and-you'll-miss-them battles. I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions also.
 

AndrewArt

Sergeant
I'm really not fixated on skills getting to 300 or any particularly high level. Companions are there to cover specialised skills after all. Personally I like the slow advancement but yes, I do accept it's likely incongruent with the pace of other elements such as the blink-and-you'll-miss-them battles. I'd be interested in hearing other's opinions also.

Yes but companions don't really level either. You get a companion with 120 scout, and that's it. Can you get a companion to at least 200 in scouting?I don't feel like you can do that. Might as well delete the second half of the perks from the game, since you will never see them in companions or yourself. Not good gameplay. It's not a "slow advancement", it's an "inconsistently sluggishly slow advancement" in my opinion. I personally enjoy slow advancement as well, (or "grindy"), but not so repetitive, bland, and with forever increasing exp requirements and lower learning rate the more you level up. It makes absolutely 0 sense, and at one point you just don't level anymore. The inconsistency is what it's killing the fun out of it for me. At 0-80 skill it's a decent leveling phase, and then it's slower and slower and slower.

Also, let's not forget that there is a 10% chance for companions to die in battle right now. And one day, the player character will die in battle as well, I am sure. So this impossible leveling system makes no sense in the context of this game, really. We have an heir system, which means at one point you will rely on it more, so your character can die more (I'm sure there will be an option to disable that though), so reaching high skills should be more attainable than this, especially when you put all attribute points and focus points in certain skills, like the devs intended, but it's still slow to level-up even then.
 

erik9631

Recruit
WB
I made a mod specifically to counter this. You can check it out on nexus.

I think the gameplay idea is that the events should span across years in game and you should go through multiple generations (To encourage your character to marry have children and so on)
 

Vilynis

Recruit
While it could benefit from some tweaking, the leveling system doesn't feel all that bad for the most part. If you put all your focus points into whatever combat related skills you want at the start, those will level very, very easily, generating a ton of character exp. With the focus points you then get afterwords, you will have more than plenty to invest in the support skills like scouting, leadership, etc, making those level relatively quickly as well. In my most recent play through, my mc had multiple combat skills above 200 and support skills anywhere from 125-200 within about 10 in-game years.

That being said, reaching 250+ is next to impossible unless you focus specifically on one or maybe two skill sets alone. Focus points only increase the learning limit so far and attribute points are far too useless but also far too rare. With how ridiculously easily companions can die, you need to focus everything on the player character to have any kind of a skilled commander. While I still foolishly try to use companions to balance out what I am lacking, most of the perks you want only apply if that specific character is the party/clan leader (as far as i can tell at least).

Basically what I am trying to get at is, focus points feel too strong while attribute points feel next to useless but are also too rare for how mandatory the tiny effect they give is. I don't think the player should be able to become a walking god amongst men with everything at 200+, getting the final perk in even one category comes at the cost of sacrificing almost everything else to do so, which is a bit too punishing imo.
 

Althix

Sergeant
It still takes 10,000 years to grind skills to 300
i made a character this morning aiming at 10 INT. i wanna see how fast medicine and engineering would rank up.
Steward drops badly after 250, charm is around 200.
Skills as it now is a mess.
believe that 300 skill is actually unattainable
Steward, Charm, Leadership, Trade, Smithing can be achieved in 10-15 years. Not only 300 but 330 as well.
 
But Tactics, Leadership and roguery take literally aeons. I would like to see upon levelling you get some free 'levels' in something to manually put some points into something you are training like Level Up! Gain 20 free levels -> 3 levels of scouting here, a sprinkle of leadership there, some polearm and 2 points in roguery whilst maintianing the 'get XP by grinding' habit. Maybe that helps a bit?!
 

AndrewArt

Sergeant
While it could benefit from some tweaking, the leveling system doesn't feel all that bad for the most part. If you put all your focus points into whatever combat related skills you want at the start, those will level very, very easily, generating a ton of character exp. With the focus points you then get afterwords, you will have more than plenty to invest in the support skills like scouting, leadership, etc, making those level relatively quickly as well. In my most recent play through, my mc had multiple combat skills above 200 and support skills anywhere from 125-200 within about 10 in-game years.

That being said, reaching 250+ is next to impossible unless you focus specifically on one or maybe two skill sets alone. Focus points only increase the learning limit so far and attribute points are far too useless but also far too rare. With how ridiculously easily companions can die, you need to focus everything on the player character to have any kind of a skilled commander. While I still foolishly try to use companions to balance out what I am lacking, most of the perks you want only apply if that specific character is the party/clan leader (as far as i can tell at least).

Basically what I am trying to get at is, focus points feel too strong while attribute points feel next to useless but are also too rare for how mandatory the tiny effect they give is. I don't think the player should be able to become a walking god amongst men with everything at 200+, getting the final perk in even one category comes at the cost of sacrificing almost everything else to do so, which is a bit too punishing imo.

I agree, attribute points are really lacking. They should give one attribute point every third level I'd say... OR have more perks that increase attributes/+focus points (why is the endurance tree the only one who is getting those sweet, efficient perks? 1 throwing focus point, 1 vigor or control, and 2 endurance points?) Intelligence could also boost social/intelligence attribute and give some focus points for example... I think it does make sense). Also where are the BOOKS?

And the main character definitely wouldn't become a god amongst men with everything at 200+... It's ironic, because you can be a god amongst men even at the start of the campaign. I just found a very efficient way of playing with crossbow on mount and menavlion (both cost 1000, so ~2000 denars for full build). Crossbow headshots = 1 shot kill. Then when troops route, You ride by them and swing your very fast menavlion, 1-shotting everyone. The game can be very easy since level 1, perks really aren't necessary, but they should be fun and add a little variety in the gameplay, and be achievable easier. You do gain crossbow/riding skill pretty quickly at the start, as well.

10 in-game years seems like a lot to me though... I find that you can level-up skills faster than that if you really focus on them, but the gameplay becomes very stale and boring very quickly if you keep that playstyle for long... here I was, just searching for bigger looter parties (they come in 10's mostly, so useless...), then shoot a few, they run away, then kill them with menavlion, and repeat. Then I switched to villagers. And I realized it wouldn't be so bad if gaining roguery exp was faster than that, but, alas, it is not. Still slow to level
 

AndrewArt

Sergeant
i made a character this morning aiming at 10 INT. i wanna see how fast medicine and engineering would rank up.
Steward drops badly after 250, charm is around 200.
Skills as it now is a mess.

Steward, Charm, Leadership, Trade, Smithing can be achieved in 10-15 years. Not only 300 but 330 as well.

10-15 years, oh god no. Especially trade, I'd go insane. Who even has patience for that, to do the same thing over and over again for 10-15 in-game years...
I did try the full intellect too, and steward seemed fine for a while but yeah, gets slow later on. Engineering I don't imagine goes very fast, lol.
Roguery, which I want to play the most, still levels poorly. And apparently the bandits never defect perk still isn't implemented so it's not even worth trying to level it up.
 

AndrewArt

Sergeant
But Tactics, Leadership and roguery take literally aeons. I would like to see upon levelling you get some free 'levels' in something to manually put some points into something you are training like Level Up! Gain 20 free levels -> 3 levels of scouting here, a sprinkle of leadership there, some polearm and 2 points in roguery whilst maintianing the 'get XP by grinding' habit. Maybe that helps a bit?!

Yeah tactics is a joke, roguery is a joke, athletics is pretty terrible too, and the only way to make progress is run around naked at full speed so you can catch the instantly fleeing AI. Since melee weapons level up based on damage dealt, it seems like menavlion on horse is best to level, but that too after 80 points gets slow :/ Riding seems to level quickly at least until 120 points, IF you shoot a crossbow while sitting still and headshotting people... not very fun to do, but it is efficient... (seems like shooting on horseback gives more exp than using melee weapons).

All in all I do wish them to reduce the exp required for later skills, and even add some more exp requirement to the first 80 skills, to make it more consistent... the first 80 just level up too quickly, while the last 80 let's say, take forever, and in-between it just gets slower and slower...

I do like your idea of them sprinkling some rewards here in there, but I don't think it would make sense to implement like that... because I would pretty much have to add the skills to the skill that I have leveled the most, or even save those "free levels" just because later, the skills require tons of exp, so I don't want to use them on low skills that require 70-1000 exp for example. I think I would rather see such rewards (in terms of EXP points, not actually skill points) through other features like books. Leveling up should also maybe offer more than it does right now... but I think that if they improve the utility of attributes, it would be good enough
 
Well...since we don't have books to read that might add focus points, push learning limits or grant extra skill points we are a bit at a loss, don't you think?
In my book missions for criminals should give roguery for instance instead of charm and have a chance of not being detected. A horrid design is the fence goods mission. You can only do it by losing money (but get good relation boost to 2 merchants) or to piss them off and get criminal rating because you are ALWAYS caught.

I really want the books back - they were good. Add some monastery where you can study. And for heaven's sake: make governor skills apply to clan leader! Since he governs ALL of his fiefs. Maybe reduced to 50% effect but stacking with a governor in place. I mean...why does almost every perk have a secondary ability that we NEVER can use since we never can be governors?!

What if we could be appointed governor by our jarl/sultan/king/emperor or whatever before we can hold our first fief?
Abilities? Get salary, may upgrade castle (maybe request lord's money for boosts), have access to dungeon and garrison and lord's hall in that fief. Talk with lord about useful stuff like what to do next (councilor function). I cannot believe how much possibilities are just squandered for making the game some kind of Call of Duty with swords and bows instead. The game could be an open world rich with RPG, empire building, trading, questing AND epic battles.
 

Rulin

Regular
I am using bannerlordstweaks mod because of the slow leveling. My xp gain is increased substantially. Especially high-xp in tournament is great. One of the few ways to properly level up companions imo, not in every skill though. Some changes:
1 Attribute Point every 2nd level. (Native is every 4 level.)
20x Companion XP.
2x Hero XP.
2x extra engineering xp,
5x extra roguery xp.
1.0 Arena-XP Multplier, native is x0.06.
Some things are a bit to fast like gaining smithing xp. But this is mostly due to some broken recipes. (in 1.5.6)
 
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Because

Sergeant
I have easily managed to get shooting and horse riding to 300 plus as a dedicated horse archer so those are definitely do able and by extension I would imagine crossbows are too if you can use them mounted as it lets you rack up a lot of kills (although I enjoy hunting step bandits and trying to solo some fights so I'll admit it might not be to all tastes).
On foot I think it would be much trickier and Athletics and close combat levelling is harder in general.
Smithing is broken so doesn't count but easy enough to max out at 330 if you want to invest the points and like making javelins.
I have nearly managed to get trade to 300 without any cheating and think it is doable, but damn the last 25 drag an unbelievable amount. It's why I'm so glad they have kept the everything has there price as it makes an end goal for what will not be a quick process
Leadership is broken unless you lead armies which I feel is a bit stupid as the perks in it benefit you leading your party and it feels wrong to lock them to only happening when you lead armies.
I don't auto resolve battles so have no idea on tactics.
Scouting once you get to the ones that help you find tracks around the 100 mark levels ok and have got over 200 in it.
Steward is also a fairly ok one and I've got over 200 in that.
Roguery as you said is fairly broken.
The worst is medicine I have tried with a maxed out focus and int character and amassed about 30points in a fairly long play through (although I didn't starve or hit my own troops to up my XP gain which some say does work).
I personally have come to use mods to grant 100% XP in tournament/arena (which should be on as standard IMO as it's player time spent fighting so why not reward it fully) and also 1 attribute point per level which helps you having to be dedicated to a single path or be a low level generalist.
Then again I am more of a Skyrim than a total war player and so am more interested in developing a character as much as I can, again very much not to all tastes, but it works for me.
As Rulin says Bannerlord tweaks lets you adjust these settings as much as you wish
Bannerlord Tweaks - Update at Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord Nexus - Mods and community
Personally though I think levelling rate for everything other than medicine, roguery, leadership and the very last bit of trade isn't too bad as long as you get full tournament/arena XP (and if you want to be good at lots of skills 1 attribute point per level).
 
Leadership can come with high party moral thus getting gourmand helps. Since Leadership levels raise morale as well this will be buffing itself over time. The first steps are the hardest. As for tactics...i reckon you get some XP for giving orders to troops as well (lead troops). I got that during a fight and not in autoresolve.
 

Antaeus

Veteran
Some levelling ends up being passive - and that's the best kind - Once I have sufficient income, I make as many parties as I can afford, and I keep them with me in a permanent army - your own parties don't cost influence. It leads to me levelling through leadership and ending up quite high without even noticing. Once you make 200 leadership, everyone is smiling at you, all the time. If you have 4-500 troops in your own army, then even when you add another 500 to go on campaign, the influence boost from having all your parties in an army usually funds the influence cost for adding other parties.

Trade is doable, and if you really focus on it, you can get to 300 in between 500-1000 game days depending on distractions. I always start with trade anyway. You can get to 150-175 trade within a couple of hundred game days and the passive gains this gives you makes everything else in game much much easier - even if you don't continue to 300 - including passively levelling your character and clan up. So I always start with a solid grounding in trade before I do anything else.

I think the levelling of traits isn't too bad. Getting up to 200 in most isn't that difficult, but because of the inflationary way that building sills works, that last 100 in any trait can be a killer. I tend to end up with a character that after 10 years is rated highly in many traits, exceptionally in a couple and world leading at maybe one I have focussed on (usually trade). But I'd expect that anyone who wants to become the best in the world at smithing or archery should probably have to put in years of game time to get there at the expense of other traits. It shouldn't be easy. It should be exceptionally hard.
 

Mabons

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It should be much MUCH faster considering that your character is now not immortal compared to Warband. OP is completely correct in that the insanely slow levelling does not match the super fast pace of everything else in the game.
 

Magello

Veteran
They really need to balance there leveling to the rest is the game. With war and battles happening non-stop then a slow painful grubs of leveling and attributes which sadly add next to nothing they need to make a change as they currently feel like they are from two different games. And I don't even use companions really in my latest runs as they die immediately and never upgrade.
 

Vanka

Banned
medicine suck deep, leadership, athletics, roguery, all these skills are insane hard to lvl.
most easy one is stewardship
trade skill is usless now since its nearly impossible to gain 300 skill for >Everything has a price< perk
 

Antaeus

Veteran
medicine suck deep, leadership, athletics, roguery, all these skills are insane hard to lvl.
most easy one is stewardship
trade skill is usless now since its nearly impossible to gain 300 skill for >Everything has a price< perk


Like I said above... keep your parties in one army and leadership is easy. As for "everything has a price" you've basically won the game once you have it. It should be insanely hard.
 
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