Leveling - "Stronger Opponent Logic"

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hruza

Knight at Arms
Been playing Kenshi, game that is quit similar to MB. That game have something called "Stronger Opponent Logic". What that means is that you level faster if you fight opponents better then you. On the other hand fighting opponents far below your level won't make you learn anything.

That made me think that MB could benefit from similar mechanic. It could potentially remove some more grindy parts of the game, there would be no need to farm looters, and that would remove need to spam bandits (looters in particular) just for the purpose of leveling player and his soldiers.

The way this works in Kenshi is that when game character attacks another game character (either NPC or player), his attack skill is compared to opponents defense skill and larger the difference (in favor of opponents defense), more XP for the attack skill he gains from that attack (further modified depending on if he lands a hit or gets blocked). Same for the other character, his defense skill is compared to attacker's attack skill and larger the difference, more XP he gains for his defense skill.

What this does in the game is that when low level character fights high level character, low level character is more likely to loose but he is also gaining XP faster.

Now this can't be just copy pasted in to MB, since A, combat is not based on attack versus defense skills and B, there is different leveling for troops and "heroes", but some other implementation of this principle would be possible. I believe MB could potentially benefit from something like that.
 
Been playing Kenshi, game that is quit similar to MB. That game have something called "Stronger Opponent Logic". What that means is that you level faster if you fight opponents better then you. On the other hand fighting opponents far below your level won't make you learn anything.

That made me think that MB could benefit from similar mechanic. It could potentially remove some more grindy parts of the game, there would be no need to farm looters, and that would remove need to spam bandits (looters in particular) just for the purpose of leveling player and his soldiers.

The way this works in Kenshi is that when game character attacks another game character (either NPC or player), his attack skill is compared to opponents defense skill and larger the difference (in favor of opponents defense), more XP for the attack skill he gains from that attack (further modified depending on if he lands a hit or gets blocked). Same for the other character, his defense skill is compared to attacker's attack skill and larger the difference, more XP he gains for his defense skill.

What this does in the game is that when low level character fights high level character, low level character is more likely to loose but he is also gaining XP faster.

Now this can't be just copy pasted in to MB, since A, combat is not based on attack versus defense skills and B, there is different leveling for troops and "heroes", but some other implementation of this principle would be possible. I believe MB could potentially benefit from something like that.
No it could not.

Kenshi is fantastic and it is an interesting mechanism; but also one that is deeply flawed.

Virtuelle everything in Kenshi reward you for playing the game "unnaturally". E.g. you are heavily rewarded for taking on opponents you cannot beat. You are heavily rewarded for "getting up", knowing full well that you will go down moments later (so you can get rewarded for getting up again..and again...)

and so forth.

It is a fun and novel game. But it is also a completely unbalanced one.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
Virtuelle everything in Kenshi reward you for playing the game "unnaturally". E.g. you are heavily rewarded for taking on opponents you cannot beat. You are heavily rewarded for "getting up", knowing full well that you will go down moments later (so you can get rewarded for getting up again..and again...)

and so forth.

It is a fun and novel game. But it is also a completely unbalanced one.

Not really, no. First of all the only reward you get from loosing is XP, there's no other "heavy reward". So yes, it's rewarding ...as long as you don't mind the consequences of loosing the fight. Second of all, stronger opponent logic doesn't require you to lose the fight. There are plenty of ways to defeat higher level opponents starting with the simplest and most obvious one: bring more men in to a fight.

Getting stomped, enslaved, crippled and eaten alive is one way to play Kenshi, but by far not the smartest one.
 
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Not really, no. First of all the only reward you get from loosing is XP, there's no other "heavy reward". So yes, it's rewarding as long as you don't mind the consequences of loosing the fight. Second of all, stronger opponent logic doesn't require you to lose the fight. There are plenty of ways to defeat higher level opponents starting with the simplest and most obvious one: bring more men in to a fight.

Getting stomped, enslaved, crippled and eaten alive is one way to play Kenshi, but by far not the smartest one.
The thing is. It is essentially the smart way to do it.

1) Send your people to different camps or the place with supersized banditgroups (forgot its name) for toughness training (get up)
2) Find a high level wanderer to beat you up for defence training
3) Go kick UCs for attack training or go hunt beakthingnests for the added bonus of money.
4)Somewhere along the way, train strenght by running forth and back with a dead/alive guy on your shoulders.

Congratulation, you will have a group of supersoldiers in 2-3 weeks depending on how much strenght is enough for you.
 
Virtuelle everything in Kenshi reward you for playing the game "unnaturally". E.g. you are heavily rewarded for taking on opponents you cannot beat. You are heavily rewarded for "getting up", knowing full well that you will go down moments later (so you can get rewarded for getting up again..and again...)

and so forth.

It is a fun and novel game. But it is also a completely unbalanced one.

If kenshi was balanced it wouldnt be nearly as fun. You spend much of the early game luring bandits into traps to steal their stuff, or grabbing cheap hits on guys who are already fighting. The endgame has you becoming so powerful that you can punch 5 people's limbs off in one hit. It's all about forcing you you play unconventionally and asymmetrically, hence why the xp scaling exists so that you don't use the asymmetric power to curpstomp enemies for free. Massacring hungry bandits then becomes something you just do for fun rather than as part of the gameplay, and fighting way above your level becomes a complex mix of PvE, crossbows and melee micromanagement.

Bannerlord has none of this. The only way to gain power is to fight bandits head on, and there are very few ways besides kiting the ai with arrows to offset the balance and defeat stronger enemies. The game in its current state needs looters and other crappy boring enemies to be xp farms, otherwise there would be no way to get from the lower power levels to the higher ones. It's already an immense linear grind, and it doesn't need yet another limitation on xp gain.
 

hruza

Knight at Arms
The thing is. It is essentially the smart way to do it.

1) Send your people to different camps or the place with supersized banditgroups (forgot its name) for toughness training (get up)
2) Find a high level wanderer to beat you up for defence training
3) Go kick UCs for attack training or go hunt beakthingnests for the added bonus of money.
4)Somewhere along the way, train strenght by running forth and back with a dead/alive guy on your shoulders.

Congratulation, you will have a group of supersoldiers in 2-3 weeks depending on how much strenght is enough for you.

And now compare that to MB:

1) Send your people to fight looters to level.
2)3)4)5)6)7) Repeat.

Congratulation, you will have a group of supersoldiers in 1 week.

So which way is better?
 
And now compare that to MB:

1) Send your people to fight looters to level.
2)3)4)5)6)7) Repeat.

Congratulation, you will have a group of supersoldiers in 1 week.

So which way is better?
You fight weak enemies to prepare for fighting stronger enemies seems fine to me.

I have not found that fighting looters is very rewarding. The only thing that it is really useful for is training companions in archery-horse riding.

In my view you only start seeing real progress when you move to merc work-hunting lords.

Edit. what I miss from warband is the middleground e.g. it still felt rewarding to fight particularly searaiders.
 

Lord Irontoe

Master Knight
Been playing Kenshi, game that is quit similar to MB. That game have something called "Stronger Opponent Logic". What that means is that you level faster if you fight opponents better then you. On the other hand fighting opponents far below your level won't make you learn anything.

That made me think that MB could benefit from similar mechanic. It could potentially remove some more grindy parts of the game, there would be no need to farm looters, and that would remove need to spam bandits (looters in particular) just for the purpose of leveling player and his soldiers.

The way this works in Kenshi is that when game character attacks another game character (either NPC or player), his attack skill is compared to opponents defense skill and larger the difference (in favor of opponents defense), more XP for the attack skill he gains from that attack (further modified depending on if he lands a hit or gets blocked). Same for the other character, his defense skill is compared to attacker's attack skill and larger the difference, more XP he gains for his defense skill.

What this does in the game is that when low level character fights high level character, low level character is more likely to loose but he is also gaining XP faster.

Now this can't be just copy pasted in to MB, since A, combat is not based on attack versus defense skills and B, there is different leveling for troops and "heroes", but some other implementation of this principle would be possible. I believe MB could potentially benefit from something like that.
I thought that the game did award you more xp for hitting higher level opponents than when you hit low levels. I could be wrong, but I think I read at some point that there was a multiplier for the opponent's level somewhere in the xp formulas, but it might not be very noticeable.

No reward for getting hit, though. It would probably make sense to gain some kind of xp for getting hit, since even getting your ass kicked is gonna teach you something about fighting.
 
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