Leveling skills is tedious and unbalanced

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Zorion_no

Veteran
I prefer Bannerlord, huge problem is the companions. Bannerlord skill lvling for companions is A***. I just want my companions to get xp per battle, no matter if they fight or not.

The system is fine. It's just way way too slow for some skills, even with 5 focus points into it.
Medicine and Leadership are a pain to level up. Not fun at all, even with full points.
Charm and Stewardship are fun because you actually make progress.
Leveling up your weapon feels good, as there is plenty opportunity. It's just pretty dumb that you can't level them in the Arena.

I don't even bother with Trade, Roguery, Engineering, Tactics, Scouting...
They are not worth the huge grind it takes to level them.

Skyrim at least had skill trainers where you could level up, Bannerlord has nothing.

This last point on Skyrim is actually a good point though - trainers.

Leadership isnt that bad once you get it, or if you lead armies, but its "too slow" to get the ball rolling.
The problem is that they should add more "sources" for happiness or lower the threshold from 75 to 65.
*Viking conquest when you where done with the fight, you could leave loot - and it would improve morale have the same in Bannerlord.
* when you train/level up a soldier - give leadership.

Medicine is an issue, on lower difficulty imo, cause you know your troops barley take damage, this kind of also is true with Leadership - as on the higher difficulty you need to get new troops all the time.

Scouting, roguery engineering is actually easy to lvl up now though in 1.71 Beta atleast.
I never had an issue with leveling up Scouting, but its dependent on terrain, so if you mostly are in some areas its most likely not going to see much improvement(try Battanian woods and Sturgia areas)(still not fast though).
Enginnering, be on the defense of a siege, and use a ballista, you'll level up like crazy, since the ballist hits so hard the xp yield is awesome.
Roguery - break lords out of prisons - huge relation boost and roguery.

But yah overall those skills need more tlc so they are faster/smoother to lvl or they need to give us more ways to get'em.
Some skills is super nice to lvl as you say, most are, but some are so tedious and boring.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight
Arguably bannerlord copied Skyrims leveling system. Use the skill to gain the skill. And Skyrim certainly suffers from the same issue in terms of advancing some skills.

Just food for thought.
It may try to copy skyrim/fallout, but in Skyrim all skills are from reasonable fast to super easy to level. Bannerlord they go from near broke-slow to kind of tolerable slow, with a couple outliers most likely due to a misplace decimal in the skill proccing code or something.
Broader issues with the skills system are that Engineering doesn't really feel like it does anything
For real, it's indiscernible wither you raise an engineer or not. The boon from having more units in you party/army is weird, there should be a break point were you get a little boost or penalty if party is too small, but beyond that it should not increase camp speed so much. Like it doesn't make sense that all those units can help. the perks look good on paper but as usual it indiscernible what actually changes from having them or not. I guess the one I like is the +ammo in siege perks, so I Personally have more ammo to solo the town after the siege is retreated. Of course I could just retreat instead.
I don't even bother with Trade, Roguery, Engineering, Tactics, Scouting...
They are not worth the huge grind it takes to level them.

Skyrim at least had skill trainers where you could level up, Bannerlord has nothing.
Yeah some kind of trainer or quest to help the slower skill along is very needed.
Scouting lvls by traveling (no input required).
It mainly raises from spotting tracks, your chance to see them comes from scouting skills, so until you have about 50 scouting it's abysmally slow and because it is a "chance" to see tracks you can get screwed by rng and some games it takes much longer to reach the same scouting levels.
Engineering lvls by using siege engines during sieging (as of 1.7.2 - no input required).
How do you make the engineer use the siege weapon?
Roguery lvls by siege breaks (10-20 skills per siege break).
It's good chunks but it requires you to warp your progression around doing them. If you going around looking for them you're not progressing more important parts of the game.
Tactics lvls by auto-resolving (only affects auto-resolving aswell).
I just want it known, the BEST way to earn tactics is just to have troops under your control (including armies) kill enemies in LIVE combat. I just feels like nobody knows this. Despite the skill effecting auto-calc, troops killing in live combat levels it much more.
At later levels, you are forced to level skills that you never wanted to.
That's not true in any version for that last year or so. You skill get raw exp when a skill is capped.
Do any Quests tie into more rapid or advanced or specialized Perks/Attributes building? That would be one way to liven up the Quests while at the same time helping this issue
No, but gaining relations gives you charm skill(may be bugged in 1.7.1?), one reason why charm is so easy to raise: not having to go out of you way to get it. I agree and wish we could get skills from quests or other activities.

My main overall gripe about the slowness and counter-productive-requirements (medicine) is that the design doesn't seem to understand the TEMPO of the game with the value of skills/perks. If I COULD get high medicine early in the game it would be useful, but later when I have garrisons full of replacement and high relations and perks to recruit/convert new troops easily, then medicine is less and less and less valuable. Same with engineering, some extra speed COULD be useful early on but once you have large party/army and can just sit there and stomp AI armies and get +speed form large part to make the game and what-not, it barely matters.

I does not matter if we get 200+ medicine and engineering when we already finished the entire map! We need it front loaded or it doesn't matter at all and likewise sandbagging progression to raise these skills (getting troops killed on purpose, starving troops, building un-needed siege gear, seiges just to raise skills) just wastes campaign time and is a useless misplay. TBC it's fine you want to do that in your game but it's not a valid argument for the skills/progression being okay.
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
Roguery lvls by siege breaks (10-20 skills per siege break).
"It's good chunks but it requires you to warp your progression around doing them. If you going around looking for them you're not progressing more important parts of the game."

I dont fully agree with Roguery being "important skill" but again thats prolly taste I guess.
But the amount of sweet loot you get at higher roguery vs low, is crazy.
You have like a base x% for sweet loot, but with high lvl's of roguery you get "alot of it".
Granted its dented etc, but still that 1 piece can often be an upgrade to a companion(Like the armor that the lords of Empire wear that is obscene good)(I dont recall the name) And other nice gear that you see on lords.

So normally you would sell the loot for 5-20k - that 1 piece will give you 30k+ (not that many is hard to come by even if you dont exploit, but still)
Roguery isnt half bad imo(but again its a matter of taste I suppose).

I do feel your onto something with some of the skils that is tedious that there is an integer error in one of them.
Like we're getting 0,1xp instead of 0.5xp pr say traded unit. Then add in modifiers to boost it etc etc(this is just numbers I made to illustrate as I have no clue on what the actual values are)
Cause some feels really "smooth" to lvl up, some not as much.

I think that trainers is "ok" in one sense as it would also be a moneydrain(Ideally lets have a tutor function for the kids, so they are better when they are "battleready"(dont take long to lvl them up nicely, but still).
More focus points though or attribute could have a massive imact. Still not sold on the current system, so once its released and this is the final way - I'll mod that myself.(not modding stuff while game is in EA to avoid bugs from mods etc).
 

Helerek

Recruit
It mainly raises from spotting tracks, your chance to see them comes from scouting skills, so until you have about 50 scouting it's abysmally slow and because it is a "chance" to see tracks you can get screwed by rng and some games it takes much longer to reach the same scouting levels.
You only need about 10-15 scouting to spot regular tracks and as I said, maybe it is rng but you still lvl it passively, same as steward. You also get 3-4 for each hideout spotted. So just scout 3 hideouts and it will lvl by itself.
How do you make the engineer use the siege weapon?
I am the engineer? Can't really assign companions to it, didn't get to this part of the game yet with my current playthrough and kinda stopped playing tbf. You could cheese it by geting no ranged units (as they are preferred for siege engines and just killing your archers when they reach the siege weapon. Altho I would prefer if they fixed the ability to use sieges by companions, you even have the cogwheels above them when ordering troops, which might be a hint that it's coming or is bugged.
It's good chunks but it requires you to warp your progression around doing them. If you going around looking for them you're not progressing more important parts of the game.
Yes, but I don't understand. If you want to level roguery your main progression becomes criminal activities. You can just break out anyone from any town/castle you visit. No real need to break your progression or focus. I have roguery maxed to the limit on every character and I never even focused on it.
I just want it known, the BEST way to earn tactics is just to have troops under your control (including armies) kill enemies in LIVE combat. I just feels like nobody knows this. Despite the skill effecting auto-calc, troops killing in live combat levels it much more.
Actually it gives you the exact same experience as auto-resolve.
. The best way is sacrificing troops tho, which sucks a lot... You are forced to loose units to gain levels of Tactics... Really Talewords... Glad we don't get main experience for dying in combat for some skills.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Grandmaster Knight

Peepo93

Recruit
I think the core issue of why the leveling is "boring" basically or not good enough atm isnt directly that we feel forced to do xyz as much.

But the skills overall in some cases dont progress fast enough.
I kinda agree, I don't expect them to rework the entire system. Making the skills level up much faster would be a good compromise.

Arguably bannerlord copied Skyrims leveling system. Use the skill to gain the skill. And Skyrim certainly suffers from the same issue in terms of advancing some skills.

Just food for thought.
While I love Skyrim I can't deny that the game doesn't have issues. Leveling up Destruction magic is insanely slow for example but the game gives a workaround with trainers (it's easier to just become the richest person in Tamriel and buy your destruction up to 100 than leveling it in the "intended" way). Fallout 4 leveling is completely different and is more like the traditional Warband: Kill stuff, do quests, get XP from it and put it into perks. Same as Elden Ring. Just kill stuff, get runes, use these to level up and stronger opponents give more runes. Pretty simple and gets the job done.

Do any Quests tie into more rapid or advanced or specialized Perks/Attributes building? That would be one way to liven up the Quests while at the same time helping this issue
Not sure what to think about that to be honest. Most of the current quests are rather boring than fun, definitely don't want to grind them.


Making skills level up faster (at least some of them) would be the easiest and fastest solution and wouldn't require TW to put much effort into it.
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
I think in the case of a few of the skills its also due to "us" and our choices of difficulty setting.

Like in general medic I see some ppl complain about not leveling up fast enough, have you ever tried higher difficulty settings? so that your troops like get wounded?

This also comes into play with Leadership - the more troops that die - the more your got to hire.
And the difference in Leadership from haveing 1 focus pts to 2 alone is noticable.

I think thats the problem some of the skills level up as I say "naturally" even with 1-2 focus points.
But some "barley move" or feels like it even when we devote 5 focus pts into them(like those mentioned skills trade, leadership(unless you lead armies)(and Leadership once you hit the sweetspot where your buffs improve the morale to 75+ all the time, and it naturally passive skills up).

I think they should lower the threshold as said earlier from 75 to 65, so getting it skilled up without leading parties in armies is "a must".
The other option is to do like VC(Viking Conquest) leave the loot for the men = improved morale (now it only gives xp-buffs when you have the perks for it)(weapons and armor in each their tree).

Dont get me wrong I dont want us to lvl from peasent to warlord in days, but when it takes "years" for some of the skills it feels "not rewarding" too me, feels like a chore/grind.
 

Woyeyeh

Sergeant
WF&SWB
Arena lvling rate is reduced for some reason. Place meant for training has a penalty for training...
I think we should flip this on its head and it would make everyone happy. Skill gain when fighting in the arena should give you the current normal rate of experience gain, but fighting in "real" battles (including alley fights, village fights, prison breaks, anywhere with real consequences) gives you double experience

combat exp gain could also be adjusted based on the level of the enemy you killed, for example if your level is half the level of an enemy you hit/kill, you gain double experience. and if your level is double the level of an enemy you hit/kill, you gain half experience. though i think i wouldn't do the latter where you reduce exp gain for hitting/killing weak enemies, because a lot of the troops you fight throughout the game are low tier. i would just do the former where you gain more experience if you hit/kill tougher enemies
 

Helerek

Recruit
I think we should flip this on its head and it would make everyone happy. Skill gain when fighting in the arena should give you the current normal rate of experience gain, but fighting in "real" battles (including alley fights, village fights, prison breaks, anywhere with real consequences) gives you double experience
Yes and no. I think it would be better to multiply xp with units we fight. For example for hiting T1 looter we get x1 xp. For hiting T5 we get x5 or x2.5. It was same way in Warband. So the best way to lvl later on was to fight high lvl troops and not... looters...
combat exp gain could also be adjusted based on the level of the enemy you killed, for example if your level is half the level of an enemy you hit/kill, you gain double experience. and if your level is double the level of an enemy you hit/kill, you gain half experience. though i think i wouldn't do the latter where you reduce exp gain for hitting/killing weak enemies, because a lot of the troops you fight throughout the game are low tier. i would just do the former where you gain more experience if you hit/kill tougher enemies
I agree with multiplying, but not with dividing. Later on you would only get full xp for nobles. Don't forget enemy rarery has any high troop tiers and sieges are mainly T2 militia :s.
Like in general medic I see some ppl complain about not leveling up fast enough, have you ever tried higher difficulty settings? so that your troops like get wounded?
I play on bannerlord difficulty + 10 int + 5 focus. I got to 125 medicine? By that time I had a full kingdom with 9 towns and 14 castles. Pretty much end game of grinding fights. I believe I should reach 200-250 in all skill with 10 att and 5 focus before creating kingdom. At this rate I will reach maybe 175 medicine when I conquer whole game. What's the point ...
This also comes into play with Leadership - the more troops that die - the more your got to hire.
And the difference in Leadership from haveing 1 focus pts to 2 alone is noticable.
You gain leadership primarly by leading armies. Anything else is mediocre xp gain compared to that.
While I love Skyrim I can't deny that the game doesn't have issues. Leveling up Destruction magic is insanely slow for example but the game gives a workaround with trainers (it's easier to just become the richest person in Tamriel and buy your destruction up to 100 than leveling it in the "intended" way). Fallout 4 leveling is completely different and is more like the traditional Warband: Kill stuff, do quests, get XP from it and put it into perks. Same as Elden Ring. Just kill stuff, get runes, use these to level up and stronger opponents give more runes. Pretty simple and gets the job done.
This sounds like the simplest and most boring solution, but what is funny is it's the most efficient and fun one. I don't know why it's so hard to design a likable skill based character development.
There won't be any neutral towns anymore.
I am pretty sure you can disguise yourself and enter said town/castle and break someone out, but I never played rogue route.
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
I play on bannerlord difficulty + 10 int + 5 focus. I got to 125 medicine? By that time I had a full kingdom with 9 towns and 14 castles. Pretty much end game of grinding fights. I believe I should reach 200-250 in all skill with 10 att and 5 focus before creating kingdom. At this rate I will reach maybe 175 medicine when I conquer whole game. What's the point ...
Like legit if your claim is true, and not just bs me - then you got to be bugged.
There is no way that you can have 125 if you have been the medic for that party unless this is an obsolete patch, and not the current or the beta.

Keep in mind that several of the changes to the beta is sublte but impactful.

On this play I'm doing now I got 5 INT, lowest difficulty (even to how much dmg I take) 2 focus pts and played for just a few days, and I got 55.
I'm not 100% sure what you mean the difficulty is when you say + I'm going to asume you mean "warrior" setting?
Dont get me wrong overall medic is "much slower than it should be" but with that much focus and that high int, that looks like somethings got to be bugged on your end, its slow - yes - but thats - much slower progression than I get when I play on lower settings with less focus and int.

I do totally agree with the last sentiment though "you max out when you conquer the map".
Just feels excessive slow overall for some of the skills.

I'm guessing thats why they got the companions etc to fill in the gaps we dont focus on?
So you got your medic, Engineer etc.
While you focus on other skills.

The simple fix would be to give us back xp pr kill(and also keep this system of learn by doing aswell).
Generic xp = faster overall to next lvl more focus and atributes (which I still think overall is the core issue of some of the progression issues)
 

Peepo93

Recruit
Dont get me wrong I dont want us to lvl from peasent to warlord in days, but when it takes "years" for some of the skills it feels "not rewarding" too me, feels like a chore/grind.
That's exactly the point. Something is wrong when it feels like a chore/grind (especially in a singleplayer game).

This sounds like the simplest and most boring solution, but what is funny is it's the most efficient and fun one. I don't know why it's so hard to design a likable skill based character development.
I'm not saying that the current system in Bannerlord can't work or can't be fun but it's a lot harder to balance and make it fun. It comes with so many problems which needs to be fixed and there needs to be a lot of finetuning.
 

0tto

Regular
Like legit if your claim is true, and not just bs me - then you got to be bugged.
There is no way that you can have 125 if you have been the medic for that party unless this is an obsolete patch, and not the current or the beta.
naw i was in the same boat, won the game, hundreds of fights; medic was 120-150
it's like 20xp per troop wounded then recovered, vs 12,000 - 15,000 xp needed per level

current campaign; all out cheesed it for a few years with recruit fighting, starving, and bad auto-resolves to 175, 17,000 xp per level...
now i just cheat 12-24, 37-49, 62-74, and 87-99

after about 300 fights, most outnumbered, tactics is 150. leveling every 10th fight or so
almost no difference when i fight 10:1 odds

medicine needs work, tactics is ****y

Edit: second line had extra 0
 
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Woyeyeh

Sergeant
WF&SWB
@Helerek yeah, i totally agree with just getting more xp when you kill higher level enemies

i think tactics skill should get leveled up a lot when you win a battle where you had the disadvantage, whether that be autoresolved or manually fought, with experience gained increasing as you are more disadvantaged. if you can win a battle you weren't supposed to win then it clearly shows you know a thing or two about tactics

also i think there was a mod that makes the leveling curve less steep, so that it was easier to gain higher skill levels, i really liked it. because right now the experience needed for a single skill point goes up very exponentially the more skill points you already have which leads to things like needing to kill 2 million peasants or something to get max roguery

because the few trainer perks for heroes (you and companions) quickly lose effectiveness past the few dozen skill points, what if every day all heroes in a party slowly shared their skills over time without needing perks to all other heroes until they reach, say, half of their skill level. if i had some old veteran dude travelling with me with 200 one handed skill then i would slowly gain one handed experience every day until i reached 100 one handed skill, as if i was training with him. and then if old veteran dude dies to an arrow to the face after i get 100 one handed skill and i get a new companion or my son comes of age i can train them until they reach 50 one handed skill. probably too ambitious but maybe someone is looking for some modding ideas here :wink: anyways this trickle down system would be really cool especially right now since training noncombat skills is, as the title says, tedious and unbalanced. so if i were smart i could grab an engineer companion and have them teach me their engineering skills, and i would actually have a reason to keep them alive beyond just making them build catapults for me because if their skills improve they can train me to a higher standard than someone i just grabbed off the local tavern
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
naw i was in the same boat, won the game, hundreds of fights; medic was 120-150
it's like 20xp per troop wounded then recovered, vs 12,000 - 15,000 xp needed per level

current campaign; all out cheesed it for a few years with recruit fighting, starving, and bad auto-resolves to 175, 175,000 xp per level...
now i just cheat 12-24, 37-49, 62-74, and 87-99

after about 300 fights, most outnumbered, tactics is 150. leveling every 10th fight or so
almost no difference when i fight 10:1 odds

medicine needs work, tactics is ****y

Hm.. which version of the game is you play on then - I'm on 1.72 beta atm, since it was relased so my memory could be bit foggy about how bad it was on 1.71.
But I got 2 focus points in medic and same in tactics.
Governing attributes for the tactics is only 4 while for Medic its only 6.

And both are 150+.
Basically if I had put in more focus points I would have been much higher, and certainly if I had put more atributes into it.

Those 2 isnt the skills I "struggle" with how slow/tedious or what you want to call it the most though, they still needs to be faster - thats not the issue.

But the superduperslow that you claim to be haveing is crazy much slower than I'm experience.

When I played for abit earlier today I was on another campaign, "still starting out", and in it I had 50 medic and after 4 battles I now have 68.
Note that in the battles I suffered "heavy losses" cause the other side was outnumbering me heavy, but the AI isnt always the best at strategy at times(or the one I looked up on youtube works very well + peasent army vs my fairly high tiered you do the math)

Basically +18 in a skill after 4 battles with very limited invested in it imo, isnt that bad, hence I'm speculating that we're either on different versions and that its better in 1.72 Beta or if you are also on the same it could be that your bugged somehow.
 

froggyluv

Grandmaster Knight
NW
Not sure what to think about that to be honest. Most of the current quests are rather boring than fun, definitely don't want to grind them.
But what if you gave a whole new set of Quests that could dramatically alter your skill setting. For example 7 Peoples of Importance be assassinated by sniper bow fire -if you do it in a certain amount of time or some other factors -you may get a large boost in that Perk/Skill where as in if you only complete 50% , you get far less. I dont know im just thinking off the cuff -but i just like the chance similar to finding some rare gem or weapon as loot, to have a Quest pay me back big time in reward as like a Special Reward

Just my opinion but id prefer it over the current mindless grind quests
 

Peepo93

Recruit
But what if you gave a whole new set of Quests that could dramatically alter your skill setting. For example 7 Peoples of Importance be assassinated by sniper bow fire -if you do it in a certain amount of time or some other factors -you may get a large boost in that Perk/Skill where as in if you only complete 50% , you get far less. I dont know im just thinking off the cuff -but i just like the chance similar to finding some rare gem or weapon as loot, to have a Quest pay me back big time in reward as like a Special Reward

Just my opinion but id prefer it over the current mindless grind quests
You changed my mind, that sounds cool actually. At first I thought that you wanted to tie skill progress to stuff like caravan escort quests etc ^^
 

0tto

Regular
Hm.. which version of the game is you play on then - I'm on 1.72 beta atm, since it was relased so my memory could be bit foggy about how bad it was on 1.71.
But I got 2 focus points in medic and same in tactics.
Governing attributes for the tactics is only 4 while for Medic its only 6.

And both are 150+.
Basically if I had put in more focus points I would have been much higher, and certainly if I had put more atributes into it.

Those 2 isnt the skills I "struggle" with how slow/tedious or what you want to call it the most though, they still needs to be faster - thats not the issue.

But the superduperslow that you claim to be haveing is crazy much slower than I'm experience.

When I played for abit earlier today I was on another campaign, "still starting out", and in it I had 50 medic and after 4 battles I now have 68.
Note that in the battles I suffered "heavy losses" cause the other side was outnumbering me heavy, but the AI isnt always the best at strategy at times(or the one I looked up on youtube works very well + peasent army vs my fairly high tiered you do the math)

Basically +18 in a skill after 4 battles with very limited invested in it imo, isnt that bad, hence I'm speculating that we're either on different versions and that its better in 1.72 Beta or if you are also on the same it could be that your bugged somehow.
yeah using post mortem on my guy's kids, after they take over they can get 5+ tactic levels per battle
at 140, the leveling drops hard. like walking up a mountian to scaling a vertical cliff sideways

also, i accidentally put a extra 0 in the third line
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
yeah using post mortem on my guy's kids, after they take over they can get 5+ tactic levels per battle
at 140, the leveling drops hard. like walking up a mountian to scaling a vertical cliff sideways

also, i accidentally put a extra 0 in the third line
I do get it that the leveling scaleing drops hard, but "that hard" thats not my experience though.
Dont get me wrong we both agree that its not a good implementation atm no doubt about that.

But since your and others experience "is that vastly different" I'm kind of wondering if its bugged though.
I went to another save where my character is "old" and I never focused at all and I got fairly high values and guessing they would be much higher, since they are capped/red cause you know focus and attribute pts stops the progress at some point(which is imo bad design for sure)(atleast we still get generic xp from it still I think, so its not "totally wasted". (but overall I think thye need to give out more attributes at start of more focus pts.

Ideally someone on the dev team could give some feedback though, to say we're looking into to it, or we're satisfied with the current progression system(aka we need to mod it ourselves which I'll do when the game is relased)
 

0tto

Regular
with default death enabled, everyone should die in a average of 20-50 times falling
pretty much forces the brother to take over after awhile

i think your guy will get to 180 combat skills and 100-150 non-combat skills while brother would get to 200-250 (prob higher if your good, but **** happens)

while companions will basically be stuck at their recruitment levels

imo the fear of death and new character growth is interesting, you can completely change your build and progress your clan. like merchant -> merc -> bandit -> lord -> scrappy king -> recruiting king -> conquering king

but they'll all die by 200 though, and at 300 be too old for it to matter
the worst part is the lack of impact the skills have, in my progress example all those guys do everything just as well as the rest, the merchant can fight just as well as a merc and raid like a bandit
 

Virari

Recruit
So i heard about Bannerlord from Warband by my brother, I bought Bannerlord 2 as a 100% fresh player, never played any of the games before and I instantly fell in love with the game, there were some glitches and bugs but overall it was very enjoyable. I now have 570 hours played and haven't played 1.7.2 since it was released ( the game since 1.7.2 ) due to visual glitches like red eyes on NPC it really bothers me so I just simply won't play until that is fixed

But throughout my 570 hours, I have to agree, Medicine, Tactics, Scouting, and Athletics all are very hard to level up, and while sure Athletics you can cheese level it. It shouldn't have to be that way, even with 10 points into intel and max points into medicine itself, it's still very hard to level up... ( leadership seems fine, as you can easily get it to 125 within 1-2 years and as time goes on much higher, as it should be like that

I have finished 6 games and 20+ messing around games but it is always those skills that just kill my motivation, even when I'm 40-60 constantly at war and such, medicine barely is past 75 even though I try my best to wound units and level up my skill, it shouldn't be like that at all... or at least massive xp gains depending on troop count/tier

Devs I love your work, and your vision but please just focus on fixing these skills and the economy <3 sorry if this is a little off-topic it's my first post
 
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