Lets Discuss: The Apparent Issues with NW

[TheBoberton]

Ah yes, I've heard changing lightbulbs when the power's out helps a lot. To put this frankly;

Shooting is the same as it was in MM. I have, in fact, confirmed this on my many visits back to MM.

Artillery has two options at this point. To take on a Secession-like system, or to use my suggested axis-control method.

However, the core of the problem is, in fact, melee. This is because of the fact that the others have simple fixes.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

However, the core of the problem is, in fact, melee. This is because of the fact that the others have simple fixes.

Simple fixes perhaps, but easy to apply? We'll have to see. What do you suggest?

 

[RainDropz]

I think the game is fine. 

 

[Menelaos16]

I demand a more intuitive cannon system while we wait for TW to give us the go for the patch.

quickedit; pls

 

[lolSid]

As I said, I was not aware of that. Must I repeat my earlier question?

Ahh, I didn't sorry about that, haha.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

I demand a more intuitive cannon system while we wait for TW to give us the go for the patch.

quickedit; pls

Do you have any ideas on how to change it? It doesn't have to be an original idea.

As I said, I was not aware of that. Must I repeat my earlier question?

Ahh, I didn't sorry about that, haha.

No problem. 

 

[jbebes]

I think the game is fine. 

Its playable, but if you are like half the community and do competitive melee, then you will realize, its so random/weird

 

[Hekko]

Yeah, hi? Hello? Sorry to break up this "discussion" but this seems a bit...off-topic.

You guys have eyes and brains, yes? If you are going to post on this thread and discuss, discuss the things that have been repeatedly emphasized: the effect of ALL the features of NW on the enjoyability of the game for the community. You all (CompleteNoob, Hekko, Oposum, and lolSid) have effectively turned this relatively calm thread into YET ANOTHER raging melee argument. Thank you to CompleteNoob for eventually closing the "discussion" but please, to you guys and everyone else who wants to post here: KEEP IT CALM, THOUGHTFUL, AND ON-TOPIC.

How is the discussion off-topic? The point of the thread was to discuss the underlying problems to why these issues arise (which isn't really unique to this thread, but still.) And Turn-speed certainly is one of these things, certainly more so than the most of the points raised in the OP. Not making a brutal comparison is silly, because if things were fine in MM and in NW they are not something has changed, and a part of solving the problem would be to identify the cause of the problem.

Here in this thread, we want to actually have a chance to change features of NW for the better. With these pointless arguments you can find ANYWHERE ELSE in the forum, you are only bogging down the people who want to help.

The arguments are not really pointless though, if your points cannot stand up to their counter-arguments chanses are your points are bad. The OP contains an example of this. It claims that more accurate shooting is the cause of a plethora of problems. Solution is to make shooting less prevalent. When infact, shooting is as accurate as before and the problems are as prevalent in melee only enviorments as on the battle server. This would imply that by fixing shooting you are infact not going to reach the desired results. So it's not really helping.

Also, I think it's unfair to say that we have no interest in helping: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,231452.msg5537105.html#msg5537105
We've identified alot of problems, by testing things properly and by submitting the stuff to scrutiny where stuff has mostly held up.

 

[rejenorst]

I demand a more intuitive cannon system while we wait for TW to give us the go for the patch.

quickedit; pls

Do you have any ideas on how to change it? It doesn't have to be an original idea.

A new algorithm that detects if the firer is trolling and returns the cannon ball to sender.

 

[Oposum]

The arguments are not really pointless though, if your points cannot stand up to their counter-arguments chanses are your points are bad. The OP contains an example of this. It claims that more accurate shooting is the cause of a plethora of problems. Solution is to make shooting less prevalent. When infact, shooting is as accurate as before and the problems are as prevalent in melee only enviorments as on the battle server. This would imply that by fixing shooting you are infact not going to reach the desired results. So it's not really helping.

Only change regarding shooting is that everyone has lower athletics, so it's easier to land shots. Which is surprising to me, since in NW I can sometimes top servers while playing as camping skirmisher and usually I hit 7/10 shots with rifles while on MM I would hit 1/20 shots. I seriously doubt that lower athletics alone turned me from crapshot to decent marksman.
IIRC devs said they toyed with something to make shooting more skill based but what exactly seem to be unknown.

 

[damonkey]

After the patches, not much mechanic-wise that I can suspect to discuss here without causing a flame war. The main thing I find wrong isn't with the game, it's with the community. It just doesn't feel like a tight knit cohesion of people anymore. Yes, this happens when a game is sold and a lot of people buy it, and it's great having a lot of people, but no one knows anyone anymore. Furthermore, I just simply miss the days when there was one single Linebattle, that all the Regiments could fit into at once. The Linebattle, speaking as an NA regiment leader at the time, was a weekly social event, rather than some big competitive hogwash. The regiments gathered into the game, they put what they had learned that week to the test (in terms of regiments who had trainings), and regiment members and leaders discussed with each other, having a generally laid back time. It just seems today, with no one truly knowing another, it's just "LETS WIN" instead of "It's the weekend, just lay back and have some fun." I know there are still elements of the latter, but for the most part it's just become a battle that regiments require their men to attend.

 

[rejenorst]

I have begun to notice that it can be extremely difficult at times to tell if a man is doing an upper or lower bayonet stab. Feint spamming makes this more harder to detect. In most cases players aren't experienced enough to Feint spam but the highly experienced one's can pull it off really well and will generally win the fight save for some random factor.

I don't find that the melee is broken but I will say that between experienced players the age of epicly long melee duels is over.
That in itself may be a good thing to cut down wait times and the ability of experienced players to mow down entire legions of newbs but then i dunno.

 

[lolSid]

I have begun to notice that it can be extremely difficult at times to tell if a man is doing an upper or lower bayonet stab. Feint spamming makes this more harder to detect. In most cases players aren't experienced enough to Feint spam but the highly experienced one's can pull it off really well and will generally win the fight save for some random factor.

I don't find that the melee is broken but I will say that between experienced players the age of epicly long melee duels is over.
That in itself may be a good thing to cut down wait times and the ability of experienced players to mow down entire legions of newbs but then i dunno.

Hi Rejenorst,

You are right here, awesome players are no longer the "red barons" of the battle field. Personally I think everyone is equal now and I say this very loosely as I personally believe that the skill ceiling is about as high as those in a hobbit's doorway.

So, Rejenorst Baggins - what needs to happen is simple and I will explain as un-thoroughly as I can, as it is 3 am.

What needs to happen:

Add stun mechanic to OH chamber
Make OH slower and redundant than a down stab
Increase turning time and movement speed

Basically, I would love for the game to feel more fluid like mm3 was and bare in mind that this list is about as comprehensive as my tired self can muster at the moment!

 

[rejenorst]

They seem like reasonable suggestions. One thing to remember though is that while suggestions sound great and easy, implementation and the resulting gameplay can always bring a sleuth of new problems or unforeseen consequences. I'd be happy to see the devs or modders experiment with it though just to see whether it helps.

I dare say you will have another batch of people complaining with each new balance/feature etc. That's just the nature of the beast.

EDIT: When you say increase turning time and movement speed you are saying to make turning slower while running faster?

 

[lolSid]

They seem like reasonable suggestions. One thing to remember though is that while suggestions sound great and easy, implementation and the resulting gameplay can always bring a sleuth of new problems or unforeseen consequences. I'd be happy to see the devs or modders experiment with it though just to see whether it helps.

I dare say you will have another batch of people complaining with each new balance/feature etc. That's just the nature of the beast.

If the developers require guinea pigs, they need only ask the 15e (or any established NW regiment for that matter), as I think we would happily test and tell them if it is not of decent standards or whether it makes the game more rage worthy.

I mean, if we are willing to cry on the forums about it - we have to be willing to test the new potential changes to the melee system, surely?

Edit

We are a reactionary bunch anyway, wanting to go back to the good old days!

 

[GoldenEagle]

Also, NW battles are better? That may not be true. MM Linebattles were honorable and efficient. All I see in NW is complaints about firing out of formation, and other than those complaints, all that I see during the LB is firing out of formation. Where did this come from?

To be honest, sometimes I do it my self, BUT its because if I EVER stop in a line, I get a bullet to my face. The muskets are so accurate that im scared to stand infront of em

 

[Completenoob]

After the patches, not much mechanic-wise that I can suspect to discuss here without causing a flame war. The main thing I find wrong isn't with the game, it's with the community. It just doesn't feel like a tight knit cohesion of people anymore. Yes, this happens when a game is sold and a lot of people buy it, and it's great having a lot of people, but no one knows anyone anymore. Furthermore, I just simply miss the days when there was one single Linebattle, that all the Regiments could fit into at once. The Linebattle, speaking as an NA regiment leader at the time, was a weekly social event, rather than some big competitive hogwash. The regiments gathered into the game, they put what they had learned that week to the test (in terms of regiments who had trainings), and regiment members and leaders discussed with each other, having a generally laid back time. It just seems today, with no one truly knowing another, it's just "LETS WIN" instead of "It's the weekend, just lay back and have some fun." I know there are still elements of the latter, but for the most part it's just become a battle that regiments require their men to attend.

Makes me wonder how bad line battles gone wrong can be. Public server *****fests (those occasions they happen) between regiments are almost worse than your usual re-enactor hogwash and bickering IRL where very hungry soldiers complain about your low quality button(s) while they can't even march for ten seconds in full field gear before they pass out, or complain about blisters or [insert something here that you just want to laugh. Hard.]

 

[BetaKnight]

MM = Only Down stab
NW = Only Upper stab
(It's not an argument its a fact from what I've experienced)

 

[jbebes]

MM = Only Down stab
NW = Only Upper stab
(It's not an argument its a fact from what I've experienced)

No. No. No.
And to have the nerve to say its a fact. No.

The lower attack is still used, and used a lot, but people have the idea that spamming up attack will be an autowin for them. While they are upper attacking, at the same time Im lower attacking at only a couple feet away, I will get it. The lower attack from what I've experience is faster then the up attack plus the lower attack give you more view instead of having the bayonet ahead of your face. If I can use the lower attack, I will.

 

[Vorlen]

MM = Only Down stab
NW = Only Upper stab
(It's not an argument its a fact from what I've experienced)

No. No. No.
And to have the nerve to say its a fact. No.

The lower attack is still used, and used a lot, but people have the idea that spamming up attack will be an autowin for them. While they are upper attacking, at the same time Im lower attacking at only a couple feet away, I will get it. The lower attack from what I've experience is faster then the up attack plus the lower attack give you more view instead of having the bayonet ahead of your face. If I can use the lower attack, I will.

Lower attack is in fact slower. It can be mechanically proven.
It also has less range. I think Hekko has video proof somewhere, but it has been tested.
It has less damage
It bounces more often (That is my guessed evidence from playing experience)
Chambers on the lower attack have a MUCH higher percentage turnover rate. I can quite confidently kill someone chambering their downstab, most people will block an overhead chamber though, it's weird how the mechanics work, i don't understand this one myself (Once more... based from my own experience)

Sorry, it is worse. Not unusable, but worse.