Lets Discuss: The Apparent Issues with NW

[Shepuz]

Regarding melee in NW.. I didn't get the chance to try out MM, but if the spinning in MM was much more common and alot faster than in current NW, then screw MM. I don't want to fight any god damn ballerinas. If I did, I would make my own mod called Balls & Ballerinas. I agree that the overhead stab is somewhat OP, but removal of it would be stupid, it's the only good way to rebel against oncoming infantry on the walls when they climb up the ladders. lower stab just ends up chipping the wall itself, no matter how high you aim, just slowing it down or reducing range would be good enough, but for the love of god, do not touch the melee speed anymore, or if you do, tune it down instead. Just because MM vets are crying that they want to do ninja jumpstabs and play out their ballerina fantasies ingame doesn't mean the game has to be destroyed for new players who most likely dislike it.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

im just gonna say the truth from my heart

I MISS MY MM 

Not the point of this discussion.

Regarding melee in NW.. I didn't get the chance to try out MM, but if the spinning in MM was much more common and alot faster than in current NW, then screw MM. I don't want to fight any god damn ballerinas. If I did, I would make my own mod called Balls & Ballerinas. I agree that the overhead stab is somewhat OP, but removal of it would be stupid, it's the only good way to rebel against oncoming infantry on the walls when they climb up the ladders. lower stab just ends up chipping the wall itself, no matter how high you aim, just slowing it down or reducing range would be good enough, but for the love of god, do not touch the melee speed anymore, or if you do, tune it down instead. Just because MM vets are crying that they want to do ninja jumpstabs and play out their ballerina fantasies ingame doesn't mean the game has to be destroyed for new players who most likely dislike it.

Neither is this. We are not talking exclusively about the new melee system, and definitely not the brutal comparison of the NW and MM systems. Munro is right in saying that NW doesn't hold its players at rapt attention and, in some cases, addiction, as MM did.

The point is, if anyone has any insight or ideas on how this is, please share it. For example: maybe the fact that there was a smaller population in MM provided a less crowded and more intimate gaming experience. Of course, this example can never be truly addressed, as nobody can make hundreds of players stop playing to create a more intimate environment. But that's what discussion is. Ideas are thrown, some are discarded, and some are worked upon.

And for the sake of keeping a calm discussion, don't make brutal comparisons, don't flame, and keep an insightful attitude when reading members' posts. Looking at someone's idea from their perspective might make all the difference.

 

[DanAngleland]

I agree with the OP's verdict on artillery. I never learned how to use artillery in MM but the system in NW means that any piece can be used effectively with one operator plus a spotter for long ranges. In MM it seemed to need more teamwork; now people start teamkilling over who gets to use the cannons. And hitting the target again and again seems a bit too easy to do, certainly more common in NW public games than it was in MM in my memory.

About the OP's comments on spinning though, saying it could be stopped just by blocking down....the attack often hit you in the side, going around the block. That was a deliberate aim of many spinners because it worked so well.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

About the OP's comments on spinning though, saying it could be stopped just by blocking down....the attack often hit you in the side, going around the block. That was a deliberate aim of many spinners because it worked so well.

That's actually quite true. 

I agree that in NW, the melee kept veteran spinners from spinning in every melee opportunity. Still, some people (including me) have found themselves spinning in NW just as easily as in MM.

On a siege server (I forget which), I found myself in the midst of a group of defenders crouched behind a wall. I killed about 3 with normal stabs. The other defenders started to surround me, and (maybe it was due to my high mouse sensitivity) I found myself spinning like an old-school MM berserker. My kill count jumped from its previous 2 kills to 10 in that one engagement. Spinning is still possible. It just takes a certain amount of skill, and a huge amount of luck.

On the case of spinning...its dilution has been a good balance.

 

[Vorlen]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Now it's pretty easy to spot those that use it, and it's common. This, along with inherent flaws in the game (no need to point them out again) make it alot less fun for alot of people, and i know people who have just quit entirely as either one of or a combination of the two points.

People that used to actively practice and be addicted just stopped playing, because why bother trying when the playing field is so skewed?

 

[Hekko]

Regarding melee in NW.. I didn't get the chance to try out MM, but if the spinning in MM was much more common and alot faster than in current NW, then screw MM. I don't want to fight any god damn ballerinas. If I did, I would make my own mod called Balls & Ballerinas. I agree that the overhead stab is somewhat OP, but removal of it would be stupid, it's the only good way to rebel against oncoming infantry on the walls when they climb up the ladders. lower stab just ends up chipping the wall itself, no matter how high you aim, just slowing it down or reducing range would be good enough, but for the love of god, do not touch the melee speed anymore, or if you do, tune it down instead. Just because MM vets are crying that they want to do ninja jumpstabs and play out their ballerina fantasies ingame doesn't mean the game has to be destroyed for new players who most likely dislike it.

Read these two posts that detail very specifically why the turnspeed has to be high.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,242782.msg5876881.html#msg5876881

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,242782.msg5877861.html#msg5877861

My own two cents to that is that without turnspeed attackpriority gets ****ed up, and it's more tied to position, not timing. This may sound fine in theory but, in the most perverse outcome of this infact the logical solution is to not fight at all. I.e. Strafing right is always beneficial, but if both parties strafe right they end up going in different directions away from eachother.


Spinning is of course a side effect-ish of the higher turnspeed, on the other hand, the cure for the side effect is to block down as Munro said in the OP. If you look at Graham and his minions winning one of the groupfighting tournaments you will see that they are not spinning that often at all, because there's no point.

About the OP's comments on spinning though, saying it could be stopped just by blocking down....the attack often hit you in the side, going around the block. That was a deliberate aim of many spinners because it worked so well.

Not true. If he you stand still and the guy spinning stands still and he is in your front arc before the spin he will still be in the frontarc however he spins assuming that you do not spin. If you on the other hand, on your own accord move in a way that allows him to get a rear-arc stab on you; you were moving in the wrong way, spin or no spin. I still get these rear-arc hits on some people in NW, and I didn't spin in MM nor do I do it now.

 

[lolSid]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Now it's pretty easy to spot those that use it, and it's common. This, along with inherent flaws in the game (no need to point them out again) make it alot less fun for alot of people, and i know people who have just quit entirely as either one of or a combination of the two points.

People that used to actively practice and be addicted just stopped playing, because why bother trying when the playing field is so skewed?

I totally agree with this post, the cheating has to stop and lets be honest here; I could name atleast 5 suspected cheaters but where is the system to catch them?

Also, I would be very interested to see the "big" names that get banned due to using an AB'er.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Now it's pretty easy to spot those that use it, and it's common. This, along with inherent flaws in the game (no need to point them out again) make it alot less fun for alot of people, and i know people who have just quit entirely as either one of or a combination of the two points.

People that used to actively practice and be addicted just stopped playing, because why bother trying when the playing field is so skewed?

Well, to be fair, autoblock isn't cheating. It may be banned in some of the more competitive, melee-based mods, but it is a real game option, and therefore a legitimate tactic to use. Some people just don't feel comfortable using "block by mouse movement," and it wouldn't be right or fair to force them to stop using autoblock. Yes, autoblock may be easier to use, but it is still prone to mishaps. And personally, I haven't really noticed, or cared to notice, the number of people who use autoblock.

Maybe a way to prevent the loss of enjoyability and interest of NW through the autoblock would be to instead of thinking, "Autoblock? Let's not play because these people make the game stupid," think, "Autoblock? Hmmm. Maybe I should try to find a way to counter it." Personally, I feel finding a counter would be much more interesting and enjoyable, as well as the sharing of this as-of-yet-unsaid tactic with the community.

Not true. If he you stand still and the guy spinning stands still and he is in your front arc before the spin he will still be in the frontarc however he spins assuming that you do not spin. If you on the other hand, on your own accord move in a way that allows him to get a rear-arc stab on you; you were moving in the wrong way, spin or no spin. I still get these rear-arc hits on some people in NW, and I didn't spin in MM nor do I do it now.

Another good point. 

I totally agree with this post, the cheating has to stop and lets be honest here; I could name atleast 5 suspected cheaters but where is the system to catch them?

Also, I would be very interested to see the "big" names that get banned due to using an AB'er.

Again...not the point of the discussion.

 

[Vorlen]

Well, to be fair, autoblock isn't cheating. It may be banned in some of the more competitive, melee-based mods, but it is a real game option, and therefore a legitimate tactic to use. Some people just don't feel comfortable using "block by mouse movement," and it wouldn't be right or fair to force them to stop using autoblock. Yes, autoblock may be easier to use, but it is still prone to mishaps. And personally, I haven't really noticed, or cared to notice, the number of people who use autoblock.

Maybe a way to prevent the loss of enjoyability and interest of NW through the autoblock would be to instead of thinking, "Autoblock? Let's not play because these people make the game stupid," think, "Autoblock? Hmmm. Maybe I should try to find a way to counter it." Personally, I feel finding a counter would be much more interesting and enjoyable, as well as the sharing of this as-of-yet-unsaid tactic with the community.

I hope you realise i mean autoblock, when the server is set to manual block. If it's a server option thats turned off then that's fair play. But using 3rd party software to activate a feature that has been disabled, is in fact, cheating.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

Well, to be fair, autoblock isn't cheating. It may be banned in some of the more competitive, melee-based mods, but it is a real game option, and therefore a legitimate tactic to use. Some people just don't feel comfortable using "block by mouse movement," and it wouldn't be right or fair to force them to stop using autoblock. Yes, autoblock may be easier to use, but it is still prone to mishaps. And personally, I haven't really noticed, or cared to notice, the number of people who use autoblock.

Maybe a way to prevent the loss of enjoyability and interest of NW through the autoblock would be to instead of thinking, "Autoblock? Let's not play because these people make the game stupid," think, "Autoblock? Hmmm. Maybe I should try to find a way to counter it." Personally, I feel finding a counter would be much more interesting and enjoyable, as well as the sharing of this as-of-yet-unsaid tactic with the community.

I hope you realise i mean autoblock, when the server is set to manual block. If it's a server option thats turned off then that's fair play. But using 3rd party software to activate a feature that has been disabled, is in fact, cheating.

I was not aware of that. Are all the official servers set to manual block?

 

[lolSid]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Now it's pretty easy to spot those that use it, and it's common. This, along with inherent flaws in the game (no need to point them out again) make it alot less fun for alot of people, and i know people who have just quit entirely as either one of or a combination of the two points.

People that used to actively practice and be addicted just stopped playing, because why bother trying when the playing field is so skewed?

Well, to be fair, autoblock isn't cheating. It may be banned in some of the more competitive, melee-based mods, but it is a real game option, and therefore a legitimate tactic to use. Some people just don't feel comfortable using "block by mouse movement," and it wouldn't be right or fair to force them to stop using autoblock. Yes, autoblock may be easier to use, but it is still prone to mishaps. And personally, I haven't really noticed, or cared to notice, the number of people who use autoblock.

Maybe a way to prevent the loss of enjoyability and interest of NW through the autoblock would be to instead of thinking, "Autoblock? Let's not play because these people make the game stupid," think, "Autoblock? Hmmm. Maybe I should try to find a way to counter it." Personally, I feel finding a counter would be much more interesting and enjoyable, as well as the sharing of this as-of-yet-unsaid tactic with the community.

Not true. If he you stand still and the guy spinning stands still and he is in your front arc before the spin he will still be in the frontarc however he spins assuming that you do not spin. If you on the other hand, on your own accord move in a way that allows him to get a rear-arc stab on you; you were moving in the wrong way, spin or no spin. I still get these rear-arc hits on some people in NW, and I didn't spin in MM nor do I do it now.

Another good point. 

I totally agree with this post, the cheating has to stop and lets be honest here; I could name atleast 5 suspected cheaters but where is the system to catch them?

Also, I would be very interested to see the "big" names that get banned due to using an AB'er.

Again...not the point of the discussion.

Hi,

To be frank - you are wrong. There is no way to counter an Auto block as it is just allowing them to block, you realise that we are NOT moaning about the settings but people using third party software to go around the setting.

Which is, as previously explained; cheating.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

As I said, I was not aware of that. Must I repeat my earlier question?

 

[Completenoob]

My own two cents to that is that without turnspeed attackpriority gets ****ed up, and it's more tied to position, not timing. This may sound fine in theory but, in the most perverse outcome of this infact the logical solution is to not fight at all. I.e. Strafing right is always beneficial, but if both parties strafe right they end up going in different directions away from eachother.

Situational awareness and judgement is not a valid skill? I am aware most people dislike even the slightest random and human factors, and prefer it as precise and mathematical as possible, but I fail to see the point in the implied (key word here, no offence intended) idea that “I am more skilled than those 30 newfags there, therefore whenever I am against them I should win them because I am more skilled in dueling, although under any remotedly realistic context it would be a gamble at best and matter of self-judgement.”

Ignoring upperstab BS and certain other things which seems to be common in NW, wouldn't that be a display of skill to know when to do it and possibly how to pull it off by doing something your opponent does not expect? It's almost unfunny by now to see how people are used to predictable melee movement in NW and how they completely lose their **** when someone simply breaks that mold and does something awfully stupid*... and actually wins the fight, or ends up taking out group of enemies before he (or she) is down with the sheer audacity of it.

*As per common arguments and points brought up here in the forum.

 

[Hekko]

My own two cents to that is that without turnspeed attackpriority gets ****ed up, and it's more tied to position, not timing. This may sound fine in theory but, in the most perverse outcome of this infact the logical solution is to not fight at all. I.e. Strafing right is always beneficial, but if both parties strafe right they end up going in different directions away from eachother.

Situational awareness and judgement is not a valid skill? I am aware most people dislike even the slightest random and human factors, and prefer it as precise and mathematical as possible, but I fail to see the point in the implied (key word here, no offence intended) idea that “I am more skilled than those 30 newfags there, therefore whenever I am against them I should win them because I am more skilled in dueling, although under any remotedly realistic context it would be a gamble at best and matter of self-judgement.”

Situational awareness and judgement are of course valid skills, this is what I have been parroting in the cav threads to little avail. However, the problem here isn't inherent to situational awareness, because no matter how situationally aware you are in the situation your options are bad from a system-wide gameplay point of view. Because the best course of action is to not fight at all. I.e. you end up with a holdout problem, where everyone wants to not be the one making sure the fight stays within melee range, so the competitive solution is to not be the one, and if both parties are in it to win it you end up with a stalemate. As such it's vital that attack priority moves back to timing rather than positioning. Don't get me wrong, attack priority shouldn't be too rigid, and it wasn't in MM, but timing should be dominant compared to positioning to a reasonable point.

Also, random = bad, human factor = good, after all, skill is THE human factor. But for it to be skill based randomness has to be limited. Lets put it this way: flipping a coin is very random and very simple, everyone has the skillset needed to flip a coin, yet still there is not really an serious competitive community for coinflipping because it's soley based on random chanse. Where as games of skill are interesting.

Ignoring upperstab BS and certain other things which seems to be common in NW, wouldn't that be a display of skill to know when to do it and possibly how to pull it off by doing something your opponent does not expect? It's almost unfunny by now to see how people are used to predictable melee movement in NW and how they completely lose their **** when someone simply breaks that mold and does something awfully stupid*... and actually wins the fight, or ends up taking out group of enemies before he (or she) is down with the sheer audacity of it.

*As per common arguments and points brought up here in the forum.

Don't get me wrong, alot of the time when veterans die against new people it's a case of the new guy doing something he shouldn't be doing to the degree where the veteran is so suprised/doesn't understand that he does the wrong thing. Hell some of my most efficient procedures in MM were adaptions of things I noticed bad players killed me with. That's the way I picked up implied chambers for instance. Furthermore, understanding these ways of breaking attack priority and other things you "should" do is a mark of an excellent player, however, it also has to be a tempered with an understanding of the risks, shortcomings and counters of things. At the moment though, if one applies those things to strafing right you come up with no extra risk, no shortcomings, and only partial counters, all with the benefit of a quite powerful tool to break the rythm of a duel, to the point where if everyone was playing to win to the max there would be no playing. It's the same with backpedaling really, the only difference is that backpedaling is a necessary evil, strafing right doesn't have to be.

 

[Oposum]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Pretty sure those auto-block thingies aren't mod compatabile so it's quite possible there wasn't such a thing for MM.
I've seen people using it on public servers, it's quite obvious when you see people perfectly blocking everything but their footing is horrible and their attack techniques non-existant. Although it usually takes me 5 seconds longer to kill them than average new player it horribly screws up lower level combat.
There was some script for native which would detect autoblockers, possibly it could be modified and implemented for NW.

Situational awareness and judgement is not a valid skill? I am aware most people dislike even the slightest random and human factors, and prefer it as precise and mathematical as possible, but I fail to see the point in the implied (key word here, no offence intended) idea that “I am more skilled than those 30 newfags there, therefore whenever I am against them I should win them because I am more skilled in dueling, although under any remotedly realistic context it would be a gamble at best and matter of self-judgement.”

Great duelists rarely do well in battle or any team based gametype. Also, great player can be easily taken down by 3-5 average players who show some teamwork (since there are no shields here, lone guy will get slaughtered really fast).
Muskets are the great equalizer here, even the lowliest new player can shoot down the best melee player which ever existed. Melee should be skill based as much as possible and you always have the option to shoot someone in the face if you think you can't handle him in melee.

 

[lolSid]

I will just say one thing.

Rampant cheating. So many more people use the autoblock than in MM. I imagine a few did back in the day as well, but it was a pretty unheard of thing.

Pretty sure those auto-block thingies aren't mod compatabile so it's quite possible there wasn't such a thing for MM.
I've seen people using it on public servers, it's quite obvious when you see people perfectly blocking everything but their footing is horrible and their attack techniques non-existant. Although it usually takes me 5 seconds longer to kill them than average new player it horribly screws up lower level combat.
There was some script for native which would detect autoblockers, possibly it could be modified and implemented for NW.

Situational awareness and judgement is not a valid skill? I am aware most people dislike even the slightest random and human factors, and prefer it as precise and mathematical as possible, but I fail to see the point in the implied (key word here, no offence intended) idea that “I am more skilled than those 30 newfags there, therefore whenever I am against them I should win them because I am more skilled in dueling, although under any remotedly realistic context it would be a gamble at best and matter of self-judgement.”

Great duelists rarely do well in battle or any team based gametype. Also, great player can be easily taken down by 3-5 average players who show some teamwork (since there are no shields here, lone guy will get slaughtered really fast).
Muskets are the great equalizer here, even the lowliest new player can shoot down the best melee player which ever existed. Melee should be skill based as much as possible and you always have the option to shoot someone in the face if you think you can't handle him in melee.

If, the developers did this, I would sit in my chair and watch the "PLZ UNBAN I USE AB ONCE" QQ intensively, so I could lol@ the potential influx of "top" players getting what was always coming there way, as lets be honest we all know who is doing it and this is expecially if you are decent at the game.

Please refer to http://forum.meleegaming.com/global/autoblocker-unban-thread/

Just imagine it.

 

[Completenoob]

Situational awareness and judgement are of course valid skills, this is what I have been parroting in the cav threads to little avail. However, the problem here isn't inherent to situational awareness, because no matter how situationally aware you are in the situation your options are bad from a system-wide gameplay point of view. Because the best course of action is to not fight at all. I.e. you end up with a holdout problem, where everyone wants to not be the one making sure the fight stays within melee range, so the competitive solution is to not be the one, and if both parties are in it to win it you end up with a stalemate. As such it's vital that attack priority moves back to timing rather than positioning. Don't get me wrong, attack priority shouldn't be too rigid, and it wasn't in MM, but timing should be dominant compared to positioning to a reasonable point.

Best course on what regard? Staying alive? Having high K\D ratio? Not wanting to be the shamefur dispray- guy who died early on because e-peen contest? Showing off how predictable and rigid most people are in face of issues which are present in NW melee because they tend to follow this supposedly best course of action?

 

[Hekko]

Best course on what regard? Staying alive? Having high K\D ratio? Not wanting to be the shamefur dispray- guy who died early on because e-peen contest? Showing off how predictable and rigid most people are in face of issues which are present in NW melee because they tend to follow this supposedly best course of action?

Best course of action in regard to winning a 1v1 melee engagement. It's not a case of ridgidity, if anything it's ridgidity and an MM thinking frame that gets people killed, because they do not utilize the supperiority of strafing right. And it's not a case of "supposedly" best course of action, it's quite simply a case of lower turnspeed favouring strafing as a means to break attack-priority.

 

[Completenoob]

I believe it is safe to say we see things differently on this subject, and I will leave it to that.

 

[McEwanMaster77]

Yeah, hi? Hello? Sorry to break up this "discussion" but this seems a bit...off-topic.

You guys have eyes and brains, yes? If you are going to post on this thread and discuss, discuss the things that have been repeatedly emphasized: the effect of ALL the features of NW on the enjoyability of the game for the community. You all (CompleteNoob, Hekko, Oposum, and lolSid) have effectively turned this relatively calm thread into YET ANOTHER raging melee argument. Thank you to CompleteNoob for eventually closing the "discussion" but please, to you guys and everyone else who wants to post here: KEEP IT CALM, THOUGHTFUL, AND ON-TOPIC.

Here in this thread, we want to actually have a chance to change features of NW for the better. With these pointless arguments you can find ANYWHERE ELSE in the forum, you are only bogging down the people who want to help.