Let the player be able to influence AI opinions

[Blood Gryphon]

Right now the player has no way to actually shift the opinions of individual clans on any kingdom decision (War, peace, policies).

Yes kingdom policy proposing AI should be added to game also. Currently they are proposing policies nearly random. Only their characteristics are effective. There should be better AI and if clans need influence they should propose policies giving extra influence or if clans need gold they should propose a policy giving extra gold.

This recent post from @mexxico has got me thinking about how to improve the bare bones decision opinions system. I think with a mechanic that allows you to spend either influence (noble way) or spend money (devious way) to change/shift a clans opinion towards some proposal that you want to make is what is desperately needed to make a real politics system and bring life to the world.

What I imagine is that the player (and even the AI) could actively spend resources (influence or gold) to shift the opinion for each potential decision that the AI would have an opinion on. Here are some examples.

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So lets say I'm tired of the war with Vlandia and want to make peace receiving tribute from them, right now no one in my faction supports the idea of that.

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The only thing I can do is spend 1540 influence to overrule everyone and piss them off. I have no way of convicing them to change targets (support peace for current war and support a new war with another faction).

We should be able to talk with each clan and spend a smaller amount of influence or money (amount based on relation) to change their opinion on it to support it. I should only have to convince over 50% of clans if I'm willing to spend the time to influence them. We should have both choices of overruling everyone or having to spend the time/resources to convince the majority of lords to agree with me instead, essentially the choice to be a dictator or a diplomate. So along with Mexxico's idea to have the AI change their opinions to reflect their current situation, the player could influence them as well.

Lets say I wanted to make a claim on a fief that another clan has, I should be able to convince other clans that I should be the rightful ruler of that fief and have them support me taking the fief. Or lets say another lord is building support to take my fief away, I should be put in the situation where I have to start convincing lords that it should be mine. This could be the start of inter faction rivalries that don't involve fighting each other.

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Lets say I wanted to take it a step further and get this rival clan of mine expelled from the kingdom so I have a chance of getting all of his fiefs.

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We should be able to talk to other lords and influence/pay them to support to expel them. Id honestly say make every transaction (influence or money) to shift someones opinion incrementally change opinions, instead of flipping it completely. Or let us have a choice on how much to spend and how drastically to change their opinion.

@emrozdemir I imagine having a new popup UI that shows each clan and where they fall on the spectrum of support so its easier to tell where everyone stands on a decision. So you'd have a top layer button like this for each potential decision proposal

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That would open up a screen like this, that would inform you what clans you need to sway either toward yes or no.

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With this kind of easily accessible information, the player can then plan how they want to go about convincing the AI lords to support or not support a potential proposal.

With a reason now to actually visit and talk to other clans leaders, I think a new messenger system will be needed so that you can continue to play the game without it turning into a constant chase lords across the map simulator. I do think a way to add some incentive to actually chase lords around to speak in person, would be to give a noticeable bonus to the player when they are in person compared to when they just send a messenger. I'm thinking either the character gets increased opinion change (+25% instead of only +15% if a messenger comes) or its cheaper (influence/gold) to do it.

This could give a reason for feasts to comeback (during peace times only) or even create the opportunities to call or join an army and use that chance to talk politics.

So what does everyone think about something like this?

 

[stevehoos]

Put Mexico in charge of the entire development.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

+1

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Yeah, this is kind of a no-brainer. Even Warband let you ask lords to support you in a fief or marshal vote. It seems like such a basic interaction that I can only think that they just haven't gotten around to coding it yet.

 

[Alfonso_M]

+1

 

[Blood Gryphon]

It seems like such a basic interaction that I can only think that they just haven't gotten around to coding it yet.

I hope this is true.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

+3 (+2 from using his last influence points)

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

I hope this is true.

If i remember correctly there is quite a bit of dialogue that just isn't activated so who knows

 

[black_bulldog]

I think one of my biggest issues with BL is the whole idea of influence as a commodity. The way you can accumulate it, save it, and later spend it on stuff feels incredibly gamey to me. Inho it's a bad system that we're trying to find ways to fix when it should just be scrapped.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I think one of my biggest issues with BL is the whole idea of influence as a commodity. The way you can accumulate it, save it, and later spend it on stuff feels incredibly gamey to me. Inho it's a bad system that we're trying to find ways to fix when it should just be scrapped.

To me it made sense that you would be doing favors/winning battles for a kingdom to gain influence and eventually using it to influence others to essentially call in favors, but I thought it would be a lot more like the way I described it above.

 

[black_bulldog]

To me it made sense that you would be doing favors/winning battles for a kingdom to gain influence and eventually using it to influence others to essentially call in favors, but I thought it would be a lot more like the way I described it above.

It's not that the fact that there is influence in the game it's how they made it a commodity and even put your tally near the denars that kind of killed it for me. I get what TW was trying to do and I think your proposals make sense in the current system, but it's just I don't really care for that system.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

It's not that the fact that there is influence in the game it's how they made it a commodity and even put your tally near the denars that kind of killed it for me. I get what TW was trying to do and I think your proposals make sense in the current system, but it's just I don't really care for that system.

I see your point now, you are definitely right about it feeling more like a commodity rather than my current reputation and how much weight I can throw around.

 

[Apocal]

We should be able to talk to other lords and influence/pay them to support to expel them. Id honestly say make every transaction (influence or money) to shift someones opinion incrementally change opinions, instead of flipping it completely. Or let us have a choice on how much to spend and how drastically to change their opinion.

I'm just quoting this part because it seems to the core of your idea.

Two questions:
First, how do you see Charm interfacing with this? As a modest boon or a kind of Hail Mary attempt if you really need to convince someone but can't afford it with your resources on-hand? Or anything else?

And secondly, what is the counter to a player going into North Korea-mode and holding all the fiefs -- or at least all the towns -- so they can generate large amounts of influence and/or denars per day, then use that surplus to buy off everyone else in their kingdom?

I'm not saying I don't like the idea, because I do.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I'm just quoting this part because it seems to the core of your idea.

Two questions:
First, how do you see Charm interfacing with this? As a modest boon or a kind of Hail Mary attempt if you really need to convince someone but can't afford it with your resources on-hand? Or anything else?

And secondly, what is the counter to a player going into North Korea-mode and holding all the fiefs -- or at least all the towns -- so they can generate large amounts of influence and/or denars per day, then use that surplus to buy off everyone else in their kingdom?

I'm not saying I don't like the idea, because I do.

Great questions.

1. I think you've hit it pretty well, it could be a factor that boosts your opinion change % or it could be used like it currently is with dialog options that would rng whether the lord is convinced and swayed to your opinion. Like I mentioned it would be cool to have both choices to send a messenger which isn't as effective or in person conversations that would be your best chance but more of a pain to do.

2. See this is where I think letting the AI play this game of clan politics as well would come into play to stop a too powerful clan. So think of our current idea for alliances between smaller kingdoms to keep bigger ones in check, but for clans. So clans who are amassing to much power get a top dog tag and others start to get jealous and scheme to vote fiefs away or something. I also think traits should still be used as kind of key guidance for Lords general attitudes where some opinions are concrete, like a noble lord might not vote to expel another noble lord. We definitely need some kind of limitations so that everyone isn't at the will of the player completely

No worries, if we like the idea we need to dissect it.

 

[black_bulldog]

Great questions.

1. I think you've hit it pretty well, it could be a factor that boosts your opinion change % or it could be used like it currently is with dialog options that would rng whether the lord is convinced and swayed to your opinion. Like I mentioned it would be cool to have both choices to send a messenger which isn't as effective or in person conversations that would be your best chance but more of a pain to do.

2. See this is where I think letting the AI play this game of clan politics as well would come into play to stop a too powerful clan. So think of our current idea for alliances between smaller kingdoms to keep bigger ones in check, but for clans. So clans who are amassing to much power get a top dog tag and others start to get jealous and scheme to vote fiefs away or something. I also think traits should still be used as kind of key guidance for Lords general attitudes where some opinions are concrete, like a noble lord might not vote to expel another noble lord. We definitely need some kind of limitations so that everyone isn't at the will of the player completely

No worries, if we like the idea we need to dissect it.

If TW would do something along these lines it would certainly bring a lot more depth to interactions between lords and clans. I would hope that the seriously think about something like this. Point 2 sounds so interesting and it would make every playthrough unique and add a ton of replayability to a game that gets very stale late.

 

[MRay]

There is already a design in the works related to this but it's early to talk about it(and not my place to talk about it since I'm not the one in charge of those changes). Our design team recognize this aspect of the decision making mechanic and working on a new design.

They understand that players feel powerless in situations where even though they have the influence/power to change decision outcomes, they have no way of doing it while the decision making is taking place. This can include swaying voters that are supporting other outcomes, or even lords who are "undecided". And since the player can do this, AI lords can also sway other lords too, depending on their influence in the kingdom.

This is my take on it and might change in the future but know that we're planning on changing some aspects of the decision making in kingdoms.

 

[Apocal]

There is already a design in the works related to this but it's early to talk about it(and not my place to talk about it since I'm not the one in charge of those changes). Our design team recognize this aspect of the decision making mechanic and working on a new design.

They understand that players feel powerless in situations where even though they have the influence/power to change decision outcomes, they have no way of doing it while the decision making is taking place. This can include swaying voters that are supporting other outcomes, or even lords who are "undecided". And since the player can do this, AI lords can also sway other lords too, depending on their influence in the kingdom.

This is my take on it and might change in the future but know that we're planning on changing some aspects of the decision making in kingdoms.

Alright, that's cool. Thanks for the update.

 

[HugoTheFrenchMan]

There is already a design in the works related to this but it's early to talk about it(and not my place to talk about it since I'm not the one in charge of those changes). Our design team recognize this aspect of the decision making mechanic and working on a new design.

They understand that players feel powerless in situations where even though they have the influence/power to change decision outcomes, they have no way of doing it while the decision making is taking place. This can include swaying voters that are supporting other outcomes, or even lords who are "undecided". And since the player can do this, AI lords can also sway other lords too, depending on their influence in the kingdom.

This is my take on it and might change in the future but know that we're planning on changing some aspects of the decision making in kingdoms.

Thanks

 

[a_ver_est]

Yeah, this is kind of a no-brainer. Even Warband let you ask lords to support you in a fief or marshal vote. It seems like such a basic interaction that I can only think that they just haven't gotten around to coding it yet.

+1

Having a minimum politics options is a must, otherwise all this clans stuff is completely useless. Your example was very good one, in WB the efforts to improve a relationship with someone has some rewards like ask for him/her support into kingdom votes. BL should have something similar.

Great to know that TW has plans to improve this!!!

 

[Blood Gryphon]

There is already a design in the works related to this but it's early to talk about it(and not my place to talk about it since I'm not the one in charge of those changes). Our design team recognize this aspect of the decision making mechanic and working on a new design.

They understand that players feel powerless in situations where even though they have the influence/power to change decision outcomes, they have no way of doing it while the decision making is taking place. This can include swaying voters that are supporting other outcomes, or even lords who are "undecided". And since the player can do this, AI lords can also sway other lords too, depending on their influence in the kingdom.

This is my take on it and might change in the future but know that we're planning on changing some aspects of the decision making in kingdoms.

Thanks so much for taking the time to inform us, great to know that something like this is in the works. ?