Learning rate diminishes way too much!

[Reiksmarshal]

I'm really starting to dislike how the learning rate diminishes so fast in all skills no matter what skill you grind. For example I had a 10+ learning rate in vigor perks and I leveled up smithing and my vigor perks learning rate dropped to 4 even though I had a 5 in vigor and 5 focus points. If you max out any one skill you will basically not level anything else unless you grind for hours. I tried to level up my bow and it took hundreds of head shots to level up barely anything.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

The purpose is for you to learn how to use the bow, not the other way around. I mean, the skill, accuracy and speed will increase very little from a certain level, as it would in real life, the bow itself isn't the limiting factor, the user's ability is. So, in fact you are improving, but the bow itself keeps its stats.

 

[Mushbeast]

The purpose is for you to learn how to use the bow, not the other way around. I mean, the skill, accuracy and speed will increase very little from a certain level, as it would in real life, the bow itself isn't the limiting factor, the user's ability is. So, in fact you are improving, but the bow itself keeps its stats.

I think you kind of misunderstood his point.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

I never liked it from the start. They put way too many brakes on leveling at the same time. Learning rate goes down when you go over the learning limit, which you'd expect, but at the same time, for each skill point you learn, the next one takes more xp, and for each level, the next one takes more xp. And on top of all that your overall learning rate goes down as your level goes up. They all combine to make leveling feel painfully slow.

At least in Warband, you knew if you killed a Swadian Knight you were gonna get 288xp, no matter what. Could you imagine if in Warband, as the xp requirement got exponentially higher with each level, the xp awarded per kill went down? So like at level 40 when you need around a million xp to get to level 41, killing a Swadian Knight now only earns you 20xp instead of 288 at the beginning of the game. That's kind of how Bannerlord is now.

But given that the skill system is what it is, your main mistake was in leveling smithing first. Its all too easy to shoot up 15-20 levels right off the bat if you happen to unlock a good component early on, and then that slows down your development of all your other skills. Its better to let companions do all the smithing since they hardly level much anyway.

 

[Lusitani 5th Empire]

I think you kind of misunderstood his point.

Agreed, I just got a little bit exited with the bow thing xD. I'm sure it needs a great deal of balance, they still have to add a ton of perks and all that stuff.

 

[Sidhwen_Khorest]

No, I agree with OP here, diminishing the learning rate seems a bit harsh, especially if you are building a character but you can't use certain skills until later, or you focus early game on something else.

I think the system really should be that it is harder to get level ups (more XP per) as time goes on, but your actual learning rate to earn XP for level ups does not change. Eventually there will be a "max level" where you are maxed in all your skills/abilities and cannot gain more XP, that way you have a character with strengths and weaknesses still, but you don't require hundreds of hours to get your skills levelled.

 

[black_bulldog]

you can't use certain skills until later, or you focus early game on something else.

Imho it's a bad direction to go with the character progression. It's decisions like this that make me think TW hasn't really put any thought it core mechanics of this game.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

Skills already have caps based on attribute + focus point formula see the image for the skill cap. That said learning rate should not go down at all because there are hard caps for skills and you need more and more xp to get to the next level. Without exploiting the game most players will never reach much beyond level 24 that said you are only looking at 5-6 more attribute points total so that doesn't give you a lot to work with as far as boosting rate.

Attributes is another topic but they need to do more than just boost learning rate imo.

 

[mylittletantan]

I think the system really should be that it is harder to get level ups (more XP per) as time goes on, but your actual learning rate to earn XP for level ups does not change. Eventually there will be a "max level" where you are maxed in all your skills/abilities and cannot gain more XP, that way you have a character with strengths and weaknesses still, but you don't require hundreds of hours to get your skills levelled.

Character level is based on the raw xp gained, it is in no way affected by learning rates.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I'm really starting to dislike how the learning rate diminishes so fast in all skills no matter what skill you grind. For example I had a 10+ learning rate in vigor perks and I leveled up smithing and my vigor perks learning rate dropped to 4 even though I had a 5 in vigor and 5 focus points. If you max out any one skill you will basically not level anything else unless you grind for hours. I tried to level up my bow and it took hundreds of head shots to level up barely anything.

Yeah this is my biggest gripe with the leveling/skill system. Especially because it's very hard not to level up because of

Character level is based on the raw xp gained, it is in no way affected by learning rates.

^so even if you try to be cute and not put much FP in say riding and bow thinking you will level slower from combat...... you will still level in combat after maxing them and reduce your overall learn rate.

Smithing makes this issue worse because people can easily shoot up many levels just grinding out javs and 2handers. They turn around and they've killed their growth without gaining anything helpful. I always suggest smithing on companions only because of this, but even without this the leveling is a bad system.

I just feel like I can't really build a character and so many FP and attributes after level 20 or so are just a wasted because nothing I put them in will raise significantly. My points just pile up because I look at my char screen and there's just nothing useful to do anymore.


This is a older pic but in my current game I'm 28 and am sitting on 10 fp and 3 attributes now, Best I could do is raise endurance and control when Riding and bow hard cap. Not very exciting and very over kill. I've long been in the late game set up where my power is fully secure and so the prospect of trying to slowly raise up a new skill is both very unlikely and unnecessary. I tried to see if I could just power level trade (nope) and it's just too tedious and impractical when you could just bulldoze entire factions in the same amount of time and getting 50 skillups! I've considered doing leadership but then I remember the good perks don't work if you're a faction leader and I get upset. Not that I need more clan parties at this point.

I wish I could just use those points for some immediate passive ability rather then skill up....since that's just not going to happen once you get the big balls rolling.

 

[Dradka]

I wouldn't mind so much how the leveling systems currently works if it wasn't for the fact that your learning rate eventually hits 0 well before 330 if you haven't invested any of your points to increase it. Like if they wanted to keep the 330 cap for skills that is fine but the learning rate decrease should be proportional so each level lowers your learning rate by 1/330th of the unmodified learning rate or something like that. I would even be ok with a level based learning rate reduction for really high level characters like once you hit level 30 you will start to lose .01% learning rate for each level beyond that or something like that.

I am fine with different skills having different rates of progress since that is realistic I just don't like it when we have a really low forced skill cap that we can't get beyond.

Smithing makes this issue worse because people can easily shoot up many levels just grinding out javs and 2handers. They turn around and they've killed their growth without gaining anything helpful.

I do have to agree with you at with how smithing currently is even more so since the perks that can help you in areas other then smithing are really deep in the smithing tree. If you could make your own armor, bows and crossbows as well as the other weapons then it would help to make leveling smithing worth it a bit more.

 

[xdj1nn]

I never liked it from the start. They put way too many brakes on leveling at the same time. Learning rate goes down when you go over the learning limit, which you'd expect, but at the same time, for each skill point you learn, the next one takes more xp, and for each level, the next one takes more xp. And on top of all that your overall learning rate goes down as your level goes up. They all combine to make leveling feel painfully slow.

At least in Warband, you knew if you killed a Swadian Knight you were gonna get 288xp, no matter what. Could you imagine if in Warband, as the xp requirement got exponentially higher with each level, the xp awarded per kill went down? So like at level 40 when you need around a million xp to get to level 41, killing a Swadian Knight now only earns you 20xp instead of 288 at the beginning of the game. That's kind of how Bannerlord is now.

But given that the skill system is what it is, your main mistake was in leveling smithing first. Its all too easy to shoot up 15-20 levels right off the bat if you happen to unlock a good component early on, and then that slows down your development of all your other skills. Its better to let companions do all the smithing since they hardly level much anyway.

yeah, you've been around since I've made my first few mini-mega-threads about the Character development, which to me is botched to hell and back.
Than due to some weirdos asking for arena skill increases nerfing, it has gotten even worse by tunneling / narrowing down the amount of choices/ways for one to level their character's skills.

Just downloaded the latest patch, and overall, the major issues for me are still all here and not addressed at all by this point. Meanwhile they've seem to have kept themselves very busy nerfing everything they could possibly think of for some very illogical reason (makes it way harder to test the game when you have to quadruple the amount of grind), so yeah, I'm still very annoyed by their release and their handling of the thing, though I won't lie, somehow I've asked for it, more than once.

Yeah this is my biggest gripe with the leveling/skill system. Especially because it's very hard not to level up because of

^so even if you try to be cute and not put much FP in say riding and bow thinking you will level slower from combat...... you will still level in combat after maxing them and reduce your overall learn rate.

Smithing makes this issue worse because people can easily shoot up many levels just grinding out javs and 2handers. They turn around and they've killed their growth without gaining anything helpful. I always suggest smithing on companions only because of this, but even without this the leveling is a bad system.

I just feel like I can't really build a character and so many FP and attributes after level 20 or so are just a wasted because nothing I put them in will raise significantly. My points just pile up because I look at my char screen and there's just nothing useful to do anymore.


This is a older pic but in my current game I'm 28 and am sitting on 10 fp and 3 attributes now, Best I could do is raise endurance and control when Riding and bow hard cap. Not very exciting and very over kill. I've long been in the late game set up where my power is fully secure and so the prospect of trying to slowly raise up a new skill is both very unlikely and unnecessary. I tried to see if I could just power level trade (nope) and it's just too tedious and impractical when you could just bulldoze entire factions in the same amount of time and getting 50 skillups! I've considered doing leadership but then I remember the good perks don't work if you're a faction leader and I get upset. Not that I need more clan parties at this point.

I wish I could just use those points for some immediate passive ability rather then skill up....since that's just not going to happen once you get the big balls rolling.

that's why I've found (during the time I was actively playing BL) quintessential to download and run mods that 'fix' the entirety of the progression system, like XP multipliers, extra points per level, re-enabling normal XP gains from arena and tournament, etc... When I've balanced that out fine, I was baffled at how good this system could be and how bad it was (and still is, it seems) that I cannot really get around playing without using them.

 

[Reiksmarshal]

At a minimum the first way I would fix this is make the diminishing learning rate only apply to the skills that are being grinded. Or alternatively remove the diminishing learning rate altogether since there is a cap with attribute points + focus points = skill ceiling hard cap.

 

[Marek15]

The current progression system is basically a placeholder with zero balancing.
Not only does the learning rate go down as you level up (base rate = 20 / 10+level), but the required xp to level up rises exponentially.
And on top of that certain activities give way too much or too little xp.
Thankfully modding exist.

 

[Dr-Shinobi]

I'm really starting to dislike how the learning rate diminishes so fast in all skills no matter what skill you grind. For example I had a 10+ learning rate in vigor perks and I leveled up smithing and my vigor perks learning rate dropped to 4 even though I had a 5 in vigor and 5 focus points. If you max out any one skill you will basically not level anything else unless you grind for hours. I tried to level up my bow and it took hundreds of head shots to level up barely anything.

5 / 5 is way to little (medium progress) if you want to become an expert in one area. Also you get main perk points pretty fast to spend so you get faster up little bit later on. However you really need to train those factors to if you want to become an expert fast not just sliding in on an banana shell so to speak. But its not true either (with the statement of dont leveling up other things) because when you choose main perks you do that to in mind of crossing if you have the main points spent in those areas. But saying you want a lot of different at the same time fast is just wanting to grasp for to much in my opinion and not an issue during my playthrus wanting to specialize characters in different areas even if they are crossed.
But if you want to lets say hard cross i usually put secondary points at start in areas where your main is weak then concentrate my main points in the areas who fits my character most or want to specialize in then secondary to max where i want it to be good in to.... then now and then tick in some extra secondaries in the specialization like in what ever your character should be strongest in.

Ex when i did my Robin Hood character. I maxed as much as i could in Agility because i wanted good athletics and bow skill. But since it was an bandit play thru i needed excellent rogue and tactics to. So i had to put some secondaries there to just to keep it up when i leveled up. But since i had good agility from the start (and already had secondaries because tailoring em in from the start) it would tick in that area pretty good anyways since im mostly using a bow and fighting on foot anyways, as for now and then i put in some extra just to boost it a little bit more. For your secondaries i usually only tick em up so you have bit of green space to slowly work on while you specialize on your mains, then you can go for them heavier later when youre up on the top with whatever you want to be best at

 

[Akka]

Not only does the learning rate go down as you level up (base rate = 20 / 10+level), but the required xp to level up rises exponentially.

Yeah, TaleWorlds has some love for exponential curves that they really should throw away. It breaks the game in so many way (experience, but also economy due to ridiculous prices...).