Lancers - Observations, Conclusions and Solutions

[MaHuD]

In cRPG if you have a lance you cannot sheath it.

This is a brilliant soluation as it forces lancers to fight with the lance or drop it in order to use another weapon.

(Basicly in cRPG if you have a lance and scroll for another weapon it auto drops on the floor... so if you are fighting on horseback it's very likely it will be hard to retrieve your lance back whilst being attacked.)

 

[Phalanx300]

Exactly. Which is why it should only be able to be couched. In a charge its still powerfull but not in duels, which is fitting seeing the sources on lances.

Ideally it drops when you change to the sword (could be used in some way for other classes) and with a chance of it breaking when couching.

 

[TADER_BROS_Ltd.]

So yeah, couch only and a longer lance. Same speed for all cavalry. That should probably balance it. Essentially removing the OP of the lancer and bring more balance to all cav.

I think you are ignoring a host of problems that would clearly arise if this was implemented. One of the biggest points of contention presently is the length of the lance, extending it would only increase the whining, and may make lancers actually OP. Couch only would be very lame.

In cRPG if you have a lance you cannot sheath it.

This is a brilliant soluation as it forces lancers to fight with the lance or drop it in order to use another weapon.

(Basicly in cRPG if you have a lance and scroll for another weapon it auto drops on the floor... so if you are fighting on horseback it's very likely it will be hard to retrieve your lance back whilst being attacked.)

+1.

This is probably the only original and thoughtful suggestion I've seen regarding this topic. Its actually quite refreshing to see this. It wouldn't break the mechanics of the game and create a lame cesspool of fail like most suggestions, and would solve the argument of lancers having a backup sword to match sword cav. Although in this case other cav could still have either a longer sword or a firearm.

Admittedly I find this an attractive compromise because I seldom if ever switch my lance in favour of another weapon, usually just to scavenge a gun or in rare extenuating circumstances use a sword for melee.

In any case if you must nerf something to placate the noskill masses, lets have a legit suggestion such as this and not a gamebreaking mechanic to cater to a few vocal whiners.

 

[osdeath]

I'm gonna give you a pro hint or 3 here.

pro tip 1 : block down.
Pro tip 2 : dodge.
pro tip 3 : repeat tips 1 & 2 until lancer eventually does something wrong and then stab them.

There. a former lancers guide to killing lancers.
Because people who block down/dodge are all that really annoy us.
well, apart from Tader, everything annoys him, but that's not the point.

 

[Phalanx300]

I think you are ignoring a host of problems that would clearly arise if this was implemented. One of the biggest points of contention presently is the length of the lance, extending it would only increase the whining, and may make lancers actually OP. Couch only would be very lame.

I'm simply looking at the sources on how lances were used and I think my suggestion would be a realistic representation of that. And essentially balancing it out.

If its only able to be couched then its no problem if its longer. Realistic balance. Kindoff. 

 

[Evanovic]

Mainly directed at Tader:

Firstly, I can cope with Lancers and I have methods to deal with them, I am not complaining here because I can't deal with them, but because I see them as being the hardest thing to deal with (on a stat to stat, position to position basis; discounting 'skills'). And my observations over the last year have told me that on aggregate Lancers are getting better scores than Sword Cav and often dominating the inf side of things too.

(Whoever said that Lancers are better because better players use them is thinking completely illogically and almost ignorantly. There is a fair distribution of good and bad players in all unit areas by virtue of the fact that there is no reason why an average player would not want lance over sword. Most people try everything, and as Hekko says, develop a preference. We have to asume that there are equal skill levels across MM otherwise we're really going to be making narrow judgements. Most things conform to a normal distribution in nature, I see no reason why skill levels in MM don't.)

Lances can attack in 2 ways: couch or jab. I see sword cav only really having 2 effective attack methods: right stroke and left stroke. Each of these is blockable except the couch. Lancers are not limited to jab in one direction, they pretty much have a 180degree angle to construct a jab within, which is pretty much the same as sword cav but with the added range. I don't think you can claim that Lancers are so limited.

When a couch works it only 'insta-kills': horse or man. The situations it does not work in are when your riding path is obstructed at the same time as lance impact would be. For example, when you couch towards a sword cavalryman who is perpendicular you will lose all of the impact of the charge because your riding path is obstructed by his horse; it's just a game engine thing that perhaps limits the couch from being even more useful than it already is. But in many cases, couch is used head-on with infantry and these inf have little defense against it, at least less than they do against sword cav (in both cases inf can evade the cavalryman, in both cases they can shoot at them, but only in the case of sword cav do they have the ability to block).

I don't think couch is comparable to carbines because the former is available almost all the time, whereas Dragoons only really have 1 feasable chance to shoot.

Please don't try this argument that 'lancers are bigger targets than other units'. You may percieve this the case because the only cav left on the field to be shot are lancers! but otherwise it's pretty poorly backed up to make claims on the general populations perceptions of lancers. The very nature of MM battles is so frantic that most players don't have much time to plan anyway. Whatever comes near someone with a gun is usually shot at. I can only see this argument backfiring anyway, because if you claim that lancers are perceived as a greater threat, does that not mean that in some way they are more effective than other cav? because perceptions usually come from experience, people aren't that deluded.

@Spearing: I'm glad you've posted these insights and, at least to me, shown that the most feasable solution, whilst conforming to historical accuracy, is to make the lancer more vulnerable in close-combat melee. I've tried to suggest ideas that might lead to that in some of my solutions and I agree with you that maybe increasing the weight of the lance in-game will bring out this vulnerability in close melee.

@ Hekko, I'm glad you're seeing a bit more with how I'm trying to define these lancers; doing it on a 'ceteris paribus, lancers come out on top' basis, rather than making them out to be obscenely imbalanced. I just seek some small tweaks that would bring them back in line more.

EDIT: I think it's hardly relevant to suggest the CRPG idea: where you can only carry lance if it is wielded, because the lance itself is so damn effective and versatile as it is that I don't think any lancer would even consider disgarding it.  It's a 'solution' to something that is not a problem at the moment. However, it could become a solution if the lance became heavier and more cumbersome in close-combat melee, but I think this would be too detracting from lancers, for both of these ideas to be implmented.

Some people feel like this is an 'anti-cav' thread. It is not, it's a 'rebalance lancers' thread, it's not saying that other sword cavalry should be nerfed in any way. In fact, the aim is to bring that other cav up on par with lancers somehow, OR to bring lancers down to their level. The latter is probably the easiest option, considering that infantry and sword cav are pretty balanced between each other.

Evan

 

[Hekko]

With respect to the lancer vs sword cav argument, the lancer has 1 attack direction, easily blocked by infantry or any foe, while swords have 3. The back up attack is a cumbersome couched lance, which leaves the rider more vulnerable to attack and imposes a heavy manouvering penalty while used. Couches are not in fact "insta-kills" by any means. I often couch horse, rider, or footman and see them live to keep fighting, it all depends on speed and angle. As for the proposal of couches doing less damage than stabs, this only reveals your own ignorance, as I have told you before. Couching delivers the full energy of horse and rider into the blow, through a braced grip, posture and stirrups. Any percieved advantage conferred onto the lancer by his weapon can be balanced by other cavalry having access to carbines(continental), or heavy swords(Britain).

First of all, horses cannot block down.

Secondly, you seem to ignore the fact that lancers have access to light cavalry swords, which then puts the lancer in possession of 4 attack directions, as well as the option to couch.

So now if I present you with the option: a unit with light cavalry sword and a unit with light cavalry sword and lance, you're obviously going to pick the latter, thus we have proved that lancers are supperior to units armed with light cavalry swords and light horses. So if we assume that UtilityLance>0 this is true without a doubt.


The comparison to dragoons becomes a bit blurred by preferences though. Dragoons get carbines but pay for it with slower horses so then it would be the following formula:

UtilityCarbine+SlowerHorse(this has a negative value hence the +)-UtilityLance=X

If X is greater than 0 lancers have an advantage over dragoons. And lets face it carbines are a one of thing that most likely is going to miss anyway so the utility of that is quite small, where as the negative effect of a slower horse is quite large in a cavalry fight, so if we for the sake of the argument assume that UtilityCarbine=-SlowerHorse then you again get to the conclusiong that if UtilityLance>0 lancer have an advantage over other cavalry.

Heavy cavalry gives the following equation:

(UtilityHeavySword-UtilityLightSword)+UtilitySlowestHorse-UtilityLance=X

Again if X is greater than 0 lancers have an advantage. So lets assume that (UtilityHeavySword-UtilityLightSword) is somewhat positive. The negative utility of the slower horse is a bit countered by the additional health which means that it can take a bullet or a slash or two, on the other hand it's less agile so lets assume it's somewhat negative in a cav vs. cav engagement. Which would essentially mean that the additional utility of the heavy cavalry sword is made up for in the loss of agility of the horse. Thus the results again give the conclusion that as long as UtilityLance>0 lancers will have an advantage over other cavalry.

The above calculations ignore any synergies that might exist between the different types of utilities.

However, I feel that I have proved without a doubt that assuming my individual reasoning holds water, that lances do have an advantage, and also that other cavalry types are fairly well balanced.

With regards to the breaking lancer/body sticking proposal, I cannot justify this, as to implement this level of realism you would also have to justify breaking/sticking swords, misfiring muskets, malfunctioning cannons etc.

This I agree with, assuming that it would not be needed for balancing the lancer, asuming the lancer needs balancing.

 

[Evanovic]

Hekko has probably approached the counter argument in a better fashion to mine. Main conclusion: ceteris paribus, lancers come out on top. It's pretty undeniable unless you're going to spit in the face of logic and reason. This thread is not trying to claim that huge disparities exist and that lancers are 'cheap' and 'shameful' to use (although one may easily claim these things in rage moments  ), they are fun to use (I certainly have a go with them frequently), but rather it's to address the imbalance in a reasonable manner, with carefully considered solutions.
 
Evan

 

[Commander Millander]

Block down...

 

[Evanovic]

Block down...

This sort of commenting does not help. You can block most things, it's a prerequisite to the whole argument. Ironically though, the one thing you can't block is in fact an aspect of the imbalance: couching, so I think you should reconsider your post and perhaps make an effort or don't bother at all.

Evan

 

[Rigadoon]

Well as I said on the other thread, in my opinion, lancers are really easy to kill as infantry.

If you're loaded and the lancer is couched...
Just shoot the horse. While couched, the lancer has little maneuverability so they basically have to come straight at you so it shouldn't be hard if you know how to shoot.

If you're loaded and the lancer isn't couched...
Again, try to shoot the horse but it'll be a lot more difficult because they can do fancy maneuvers. Doesn't really matter if you miss because you can just downblock.

If you're not loaded and the lancer is couched
This is probably the hardest one but in some cases, you can sidestep the lance and stab the horse or rider from the side or behind. Again, a couched lance can't turn as easily so side stepping at the right moment and you'll be safe. But if you're going up against a good lancer, you're pretty much dead.

If you're not loaded and the lancer isn't couched
Downblock.

 

[TADER_BROS_Ltd.]

However, I feel that I have proved without a doubt that assuming my individual reasoning holds water, that lances do have an advantage, and also that other cavalry types are fairly well balanced.

Hahahahahahahaha. I actually lol'd so hard when you approached me ingame and even more so when I actually read it. You're a good guy Hekko, and I know you're not trying to demonize a class you cant fight, unlike some in this thread.

However you simply cannot derive mathematical formulas for the interaction of classes in this mod/game. At least not in the way you are attempting to. And if you want to present an argument with mathematical factors, don't cram them into a paragraph of text, present them in a formula of some sort, that way your argument will have some degree of credibility, and not appear as though you are trying to confuse/legitimize your point of view.

Guys, in the end players will decide their own opinions on the subject, based on their experiences. We've heard from quite a few prominent players in here. I think alot of the good players have also made good points. We can present our opinions and discuss, but at the end of it all, I think it really does come down to your skill and ability to fight against lancers.

Follow the protips of Osdeath, study the teachings of Akame, listen to Kator's wisdom, curl up and dive into Spearing's volumes(bring a snack), get pumped up by Banzai's rantings, and be a bawse like Millander/BLOCK DOWN.

O yeah and Evan dodge. I know you have a problem doing it but practice makes perfect buddy. I believe in you.

You will probably find you can fight alot more effectively against this most hated on of classes, formulas or no formulas.

Also Rigadoon has some epic protips. Live n' Learn

 

[Hekko]

Hahahahahahahaha. I actually lol'd so hard when you approached me ingame and even more so when I actually read it. You're a good guy Hekko, and I know you're not trying to demonize a class you cant fight, unlike some in this thread.

However you simply cannot derive mathematical formulas for the interaction of classes in this mod/game. At least not in the way you are attempting to. And if you want to present an argument with mathematical factors, don't cram them into a paragraph of text, present them in a formula of some sort, that way your argument will have some degree of credibility, and not appear as though you are trying to confuse/legitimize your point of view.

First of all, I would be much obliged if you dropped the condescending and patronizing stance you have towards me.

Secondly I actually can, that's how economics work. The light cavalry sword, while not getting that much use acutally does indeed make it this simple.

Also I would kindly ask you not to ignore my complete argument upon the basis of layout, I will edit it to make it clearer, but kindly adress the point that I made.

 

[BraveheartA7X]

Block down...

This sort of commenting does not help. You can block most things, it's a prerequisite to the whole argument. Ironically though, the one thing you can't block is in fact an aspect of the imbalance: couching, so I think you should reconsider your post and perhaps make an effort or don't bother at all.

Evan

If they are couching they are doing you a favor practially just slash at them from the side

 

[Kator Viridian]

Hahahahahahahaha. I actually lol'd so hard when you approached me ingame and even more so when I actually read it. You're a good guy Hekko, and I know you're not trying to demonize a class you cant fight, unlike some in this thread.

However you simply cannot derive mathematical formulas for the interaction of classes in this mod/game. At least not in the way you are attempting to. And if you want to present an argument with mathematical factors, don't cram them into a paragraph of text, present them in a formula of some sort, that way your argument will have some degree of credibility, and not appear as though you are trying to confuse/legitimize your point of view.

First of all, I would be much obliged if you dropped the condescending and patronizing stance you have towards me.

Secondly I actually can, that's how economics work. The light cavalry sword, while not getting that much use acutally does indeed make it this simple.

Also I would kindly ask you not to ignore my complete argument upon the basis of layout, I will edit it to make it clearer, but kindly adress the point that I made.

I was going to reply to the reasoning of equations you put up but I'm going to reply to this one instead.

1) missed about several variables from your equations, including skill level, tactfulness, tilder key use, back attacks, weapon strengths, velocity, couch/not couch, weapon length, weapon power, heavy swords, horse health, infantry health, infantry power, ect.

2) Battles and fights of skill are NEVER numbers. Odds are numbers ... events are not. Mathematical Equation will not work in this context such as mathematical equation has not proved the existance of god ... events cannot and will never be fortold through equations.

A lance is based of skill not power, for example a head hit with a lance is an instant kill, same with a bayonete, both can cause instant kills with stabs to the chest and both will not instant kill with a stab to the feet. The lance has a bit more length and the mobility of a horse ... but suffers a hell of a lot when dismounted (which is another thing you have not taken into account at all if the lancer is dismounted).

The current lancer usage is not overpowered otherwise what I said would be true ... unskilled people would always be winning vs the skilled infantry ... which by the way is not true.

The light cavalry sabre (Which has 3 attack directions not 4! unless you were refering to those weird russian ones I think) has its advantages which you have not considered ... how close they are, the lance is useless up close on horseback (Low none existant blunt damage) the light cavlary sabre then chews them up. Also noting you saying "Horses health" yes you get dismounted as a dragoon but you can now downblock until he takes out his sword and I have done this many occasions and take out his horse to which you can slash him on the floor.

Now I don't know where you got your argument stand point from (possibly from personal experiance difficulties with lancers, hatred of lancers, not wanting lancers in game, people being idiots to you as lancers and boasting on kills, ect) but there is nothing OPed about the lancers, they were strong in real life but in this game they are much much weaker. Also a note from native, the horses have a lot less HP ... or bayonetes do a lot more damage.

 

[Hekko]

I was going to reply to the reasoning of equations you put up but I'm going to reply to this one instead.

1) missed about several variables from your equations, including skill level, tactfulness, tilder key use, back attacks, weapon strengths, velocity, couch/not couch, weapon length, weapon power, heavy swords, horse health, infantry health, infantry power, ect.

The thing is these either equal eachother out or are included in simplified form in the equations weapon power+weapon length = UtilityWeapon

Alot of the things you are trying to include here have no bearing on the point I am trying to make, infantry for instance does not come into it at all. Skill does not come in either, I am not trying to predict the outcome of an engagement, I am trying to prove that lancers indeed have more options at their disposal, that they don't have to pay for and that they thus are better than other cavalry.

To derrive the equations a bit further back, a lancer without a lance is a hussar (or comperable light cavalry man) for all intents and purposes, correct?
Thus you arrive at:

Lancer-lance=Hussar

So if the lance has a positive value and is added back you get to:

Lancer>Hussar

Now the beauty of this is that it doesn't have to quantify how overpowered the lance is, that is up to each and everyone to decide for themself.

2) Battles and fights of skill are NEVER numbers. Odds are numbers ... events are not. Mathematical Equation will not work in this context such as mathematical equation has not proved the existance of god ... events cannot and will never be fortold through equations.

A lance is based of skill not power, for example a head hit with a lance is an instant kill, same with a bayonete, both can cause instant kills with stabs to the chest and both will not instant kill with a stab to the feet. The lance has a bit more length and the mobility of a horse ... but suffers a hell of a lot when dismounted (which is another thing you have not taken into account at all if the lancer is dismounted).

Again, I am not trying to fortell any outcomes. Besides a dismounted lancers has an advantage over other cavalry again, due to the lance:

Dismounted Lancer-Lance=Dismounted Hussar

The current lancer usage is not overpowered otherwise what I said would be true ... unskilled people would always be winning vs the skilled infantry ... which by the way is not true.

Once again my reasoning is not from a infantry vs. lancer point of view. It's about whether or not someone trying to maximize the benefits of the class choise would choose lancer over other cavalry. Also things do not have to be as extreme as you suggest for it to be imbalanced, it's enough for lancers to do disproportinatly well for them to be overpowered.

The light cavalry sabre (Which has 3 attack directions not 4! unless you were refering to those weird russian ones I think) has its advantages which you have not considered ... how close they are, the lance is useless up close on horseback (Low none existant blunt damage) the light cavlary sabre then chews them up. Also noting you saying "Horses health" yes you get dismounted as a dragoon but you can now downblock until he takes out his sword and I have done this many occasions and take out his horse to which you can slash him on the floor.

I am counting the lance as the 4th attack direction.

And lancers have light cavalry sabers too.

Once the dragoons is dismounted it becomes a non-issue though, since he is effectively infantry, which is something I am not touching upon. But to turn the reasoning, if a lancer gets dismounted the dragoon cannot touch the lancer, ever.

Now I don't know where you got your argument stand point from (possibly from personal experiance difficulties with lancers, hatred of lancers, not wanting lancers in game, people being idiots to you as lancers and boasting on kills, ect) but there is nothing OPed about the lancers, they were strong in real life but in this game they are much much weaker. Also a note from native, the horses have a lot less HP ... or bayonetes do a lot more damage.

While I do find an avarage lancer harder to deal with than an avarage sword cavalry man, I still can stay alive ad infinitum against him. Furthermore I am not arguing this from my own point of gain, since I mostly play as line infantry, I am just merly pointing out that if this would be a case where you rationally would try to maximize the power gained from the class choise (within the sub-group of cavalry) the rational pick for a very overwhelming majority would be to pick lancer, since even if you like hussars better you can achieve the same results with a lancer, while still having the OPTION to couch/stab.

Edit: Essentially what I am trying to do here is that if you have some sort of financial arbitrage-ish view on things lancers are better.

 

[Leberecht Reinhold]

A hussar has higher (by a lot) 1h proficency than the lancer, in addition to more riding skill (again, quite a big difference)

 

[Oposum]

Lancers in general are not overpowered, but when played by experienced players (like Tader or Olaf) only way to beat them (if they're not just screwing around) is to shoot them down. Average lancer is not a big threat and can be dealt with easily while the top players will just stay out of your range and attack with lance until you make mistake or they just couch you down. Giving them less maneuverable horses would put even best lancer on the same foot with sword cav.
Also, sword cav is better against inf than lancers, mostly because stab attacks from horse need far more timing and aiming to hit than slashing weapons, and bumpslashing is really easy to do

 

[Hekko]

How much does one handed skill count for when mounted?

The riding skill is equal.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,150652.0.html

Edit: And Oposum, you have to assume equal skill level between the users when comparing the classes, thus since you are one of the best sword cavalry users you have to be compared in the context that you always are facing people like Tader or Olaf.

 

[Sir_Ranger]

Lost my pistol broke my sword but got 3 of them by god.
What sort of lancers I hear you ask.
Pretty sky blue ones, the trick is to get past the lance point then it's abit like killling rabbits.