Kreamys Real Warfare Suggestions -> Game concepts, | Faction Goods |, Economy, Infrastructure, Recruiting & Policies

What changes in this compilation would you like to see implemented?


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kreamy

Sergeant
Current as of May 1, 2020. Draft 0.1.1 (Framework laid, WIP)
Recently updates/additions
Super Noble in 2. Added new section May 1, 2020
Clan Policies. Added May 1st, 2020
Please comment constructively so I can incorporate your suggestions to this list.
Feel free to quote and restructure/edit a portion in a quoted spoiler-> please color your changes edits & formats, and strike through old text.

If you want to contribute to &/or discuss this work, feel free to PM me, this includes anyone at TaleWorlds.

My suggestion list to make Bannerlord warfare realistic, deep and not solely focused on in game battles. These can be easily implemented (especially faction goods & faction pool/bank). These act as layers to the core game that are already in place, and provide insulation from the craziness that is made up of hundreds of NPC's + the player.. Some of these features are similar to what has been seen in warband mods, total war game concepts, and others.

TL : DR - From a high level, there are a few changes that are implemented which address areas of economy, policies & modifiers, a quasi-'tech tree', recruitment & troop quality etc. through an added layer of Faction Goods, that uniquely address a large gap in Bannerlord balance, immersion, depth & gameplay. Reading all sections of the post will be to your advantage in understanding and contributing to an easily added awesome capability.

1. Faction Goods + Modifiers + Kingdom policies = a good solution -> Improvements/workshops etc. besides producing items for trade, are 'used' as a basis for equipping your troops, among other central balancing aspects.
These include
A) Faction Goods
B) Infrastructure unique to different fiefs (settlements, towns, castles)
C) Tie into a faction goods / bank pool (ideally these work together, I address this later in the post)

  • How does this work?
Besides the trade items (goods) produced from workshops, factions goods can add be output (like +1 food, +1 militia, +1 loyalty, here it is +1 arms / armor etc, many of them ideally and at a strategic level that is not physically in game for all parties to effect changes on -> ie trade goods currently). Ideally each Town & Castle can have access to the reserve, both supplying and drawing on some supply where they are deficient, which makes for the economy to also function at the macro level -> when you lose fiefs, you also have less to supply & DEMAND for faction goods, therefore a small faction can support itself with small demand, perhaps having an excess in supply, which can be used in trade/diplomacy. In this way, larger factions become harder to sustain, and smaller factions easier to manage and be of use to the large ones.
  • Faction Goods?
Maybe you dont get it to start off with, but have to put a series of policies and unique buildings in place (similar to workshops, but is a larger capital investment and infrastructure that is only available for different tiers of towns. These are different than actual in game trade goods that caravans buy / sell, and so can be isolated from the craziness that happens in game. This will allow easier balancing, and in game balancing by the player and factions.

A kingdom may have 1 capital (tier 3), several towns (tier 2) and villages (tier 1), or tiers of these fiefs. To reach a tier, which provides bonuses & unlocks for infrastructure, several policies/conditions need to be met. So you dont conquer a fief, dump money, and max out improvements. Now you have to work on it over time, bring a prosperity level of X over a 6 month period, have access to certain materials/faction goods minimums etc, and some policies might nullify getting to this higher tier, for some positive/negative tradeoff (more low tier manpower vs economic benefits etc)..

Each of these fiefs can have unique buildings to contribute to this supply chain, making all fiefs a necessary part, and having a unique role (1 provides manpower, 1 provides certain finished goods, 1 provides raw mateials, or they can all provide a mix (for example a village can have its own blacksmith and output some tools, or basic weapons IE 70% raw mats, 25% manpower, 5% finished goods, this will also help balance the supply chain, as each link has some self sufficiency)

Additionally, there is a faction 'pool' (or town/castle can have a split of it), for strategic goods, like ARROWS (again, like this +1 food, +1 loyalty etc, this can be built in im sure, ideally it is a category such as ARMS, which includes armors, arrows, weapons of the industry quality, not the actual trade good). A town that has a low supply of arrows, will run out of them in battle (currently there is unlimited reloads from barrels of arrows on the wall). A faction should be able to severely limit anothers warpower through economic warfare/raiding (not deplete, but limit, whereas the faction ruler will have to take appropriate steps, through modifiying/repurposing industry &/or diplomacy to acquire these goods to make up for the shortage -> this is where your millions of denarii stockpile will have actual use, besides paying a lord to join you, which is mostly dumb.
  • Why take time to acquire?
Adds immersion to game, is a 'side goal' for managing your kingdom, and adds diversity to the fiefs right now which are basic placeholders and all the same.
It also takes time to come into effect, which should help smooth out gameplay. Currently, there are too many peaks and valleys in terms of changes, the game needs to adjust slowly over time (for recruit availability, prosperity, supply of goods etc).
  • What should you acquire?
Certain faction unique trade goods that can be / are monopolized. If anyone is familiar with Total War, some goods had to be acquired for your faction to have certain buildings/industries.

This should add to diplomacy and alliances where UNIQUE trade goods are either sought through conquest or diplomacy, thus adding depth (at the moment, these goods purely circulate in the amalgam of game trade/raid etc.

There should be a higher order of goods that can play a unique balancing/changing role IE faction goods that are not in 'direct' circulation.
  • What about Castles?
Now you are talking. Castles can be automatically fed militias for training (parties that physically are sent to castles through a kingdom policy, or through clan management screen.

Here, equipments are delivered (slower than caravans, but have more guards, and require wagons to cart the goods, which is another good IE analgous to horses). Castles ARE YOUR MAIN source of recruiting good soldiers, garrisons, strong concentric defence system (making these actually difficult to take) and storing of some strategic goods/prisoners.

Your castle needs specific infrastructure, and different castles can have different infrastructures IE swordsman, archery, spearman, horse etc. IF ALL YOUR CASTLES HAVE SWORDSMAN INFRASTRUCTURE, your faction will (or the castles of that faction) will disproportionately raise swordsman, which also requires a specific good. If you cannot feed enough of that good, you cannot equip swordsmen!!!!!
  • How will this affect warfare?
A) Not every city will be a target to purely capture for no basic reason besides territory and income. Now, strategic consideration will be given to attacking / defending (and therefore the garrison you dedicate as well).

B) Kingdoms over the long run who are well managed can have an edge for their troops, and specialization will pay off over time (also allow you to mold your faction) besides the current 'balance' in place (mainly done through troop tiers/equipment -> if you are being smashed, you should adapt your faction on your own and not wait for game balancing fixes. You should be able to fix this on your own!!!!!!!!!)

  • Whats this all about?
Each shop/unique infrastructure will contribute a small fraction to the total output and across the faction these add up to deliver the benefits, and so losing some territory doesnt massively affect the faction 'good' (or supply of)

Settlements with these improvements can have better militia, at the cost of input goods (consumed, like workshops, prosperity require consumption). These input goods come from the strategic reserve and directly from the improvement. IE within a short period, the militia can start having better equipment, more arrows etc from the improvement (or whatever this improvement is intended to do), and at a larger level, this benefits slowly trickle into the faction as a whole. These benefits do not apply 100% to the town, nor 100% to the faction. Instead, an improvement may provide 10% better gear to its militia (IE 1 in 10 better equipped), and 1% to the faction (so, 10 of these improvements will make your faction have 10% of its militia have slightly better equipment.

A better way than straight percentages would be to a ratio of troops, which would better reflect the ability of a 'workshop' to provide outputs (faction armors) based on inputs (trade goods that can also be acquired as faction goods to 'fill in the gap'). So, a ratio of troops can be upgraded across the faction ( IE spawn recruiteable, or are upgrade-able) in proportion to the faction good instead of a fixed percentage of troops (ratios are much better than percentages here, 100% :wink: )
  • What is the benefit?
This will enhance the game mechanics & depth, where not every city is able to have the same improvements (or would it be advantageous to do so, you will see why later) -> to get it, you require a mix of prosperity, average goods over time or unique resource, kingdom policy (and tradeoff). Not enough faction goods = cannot make those troops in high ratios (this takes money out of the equation for troop upgrades, which is a non-factor in 'basically' any stage of the game... certainly a non-factor mid-late)

This allows a segregated 'level of economy' (think of it as a layer, or scale), that the player and NPC can use to their advantage to fix balancing issues, and not affect goods prices directly, rather they can affect other tangible things that these prices/shortages are affecting (ie food supply ****ing your garrison, consumption and prosperity) -> there needs to be a separate level here to balance the scale. So, improvements/workshops can make goods directly, and also contribute to the faction level for balancing (perhaps there are unique slots for majority faction contribution, and workshops that contribute to the town and lightly to the faction goods)
2. Distinction between militia, noble (maybe a 3rd class of troop -> some sort of free man)
  • Militia
Militia will continue to be garbage, but will benefit from some moderately improved equipment (slightly better weapons and armor) + training policies over time. These are militia levies, spearmen, archers etc. They dont go higher than tier 3-4, but as I said, a faction can get slightly better quality from their quantity with the right policies and industries.
  • Freeman
Can make up the core of your good troops. These can be trained (like your imperial infantry etc in the castles previously mentioned).
  • Nobles
Your beastman troops, available from certain fiefs (or all, who cares). Of course, kingdom policy affects this, and industry + prosperity will heavily affect this. Some factions may have tons of nobles, but unable to adequately equip them if the faction is poor, doesnt have the right industry, and maybe doesnt have good relations with lords!!!!

Perhaps FACTION CLANS DONATE A PORTION OF THEIR NOBLES TO THE RULING CLANS CASTLES. Now that, would make for a very interesting added mechanic on relationship, influence, kingdom policies etc, and certainly add tension within factions.

They have the ability after a long time to become super fighters, similar to your companions. Additionally, they can become 'quasi' companions (no access to equipment directly/skills), but are not insta-killed (although of course in permadeath games this is different). So, they can be executed, cannot really be recruited from other factions (IE from your prisoners), and fetch good money for ransoming. The last part might be hard to do, and I dont know if it adds much, besides having a retainer
An alternative/added on nobles is covered in the super noble header below.
  • 'Super'/Minor noble alternative
As mentioned previously, they spawn as 'companion types' (no names, just the class, with regen health, no Taleworlds, you dont needa dropdown to see each individual supernobles health bar, just keep them as active/wounded. No access inventory etc.

These troops will have super combat advantages and other advantages in GARRISONS/FIEFS. YES, keeping all your super nobles in army will have negative effects to your castle/fiefs. These super nobles act as commanders / unnamed notables, a form of minor hero, but is a class instead of an individual. They are analogous to the faction goods I mentioned, but can be physically in the game (or alternatively, these simply function as a veneer, but its so much better to have them IN game)

This will be a big part of kingdom policies and prosperity, loyalty etc. Minor nobles give the faction influence and bonuses (to their fiefs and the accompanying armies, similarly to companions, by a small amount between ~0-5%, depending on the ratio). Having 1 minor noble for every 30-50 men will increase responsiveness to commands, morale, fighting ability etc. This will make for a good target in battles, and a commodity to protect, but not a massive game changer.

Protecting villages from raiding will be more important now, as they will be the source of your minor nobles, and so raiding overtime can decrease the efficiency of a faction by ~0-5% after grinding them over time, executing minor nobles / not ransoming them. Minor nobles should not give negative relations globally when executed, but when doing so has a negative impact on the village they are from (which also takes a long time to produce them).

Therefore, killing these nobles will have negative impacts economically, and for factions troop quality, output etc. over the long run. They are some sort of 'middle man' for training/recruiting/making your kingdom run smoothly, along with the industry/policy component. Right now there is a HUGE disconnect between the whole system, everything is basic and veneered.

May 1st, 2020 Update - These super nobles can function alongside a new recruiting mechanism. Basically, they are 'recruited' proportionally to faction wealth, and their amount can vary according to kingdom policies. These super nobles are representative of your recruiting, like in 1257AD Lance system.

What does this mean? You dont recruit single units, but groups of them, 'led' by a 'super' noble (this noble can die, and is eventually replaced overtime, perhaps a long time, groups of units have less effectiveness without a super noble).

The big kicker -> each super noble denotes the entire group of troops, so you dont have 300 different unit types. Now maybe you have 20-30 super nobles for an army of 300, with various troops in their lance (when you single recruit units after battles, or from prisoners, the super nobles take them into their pools).
3. Kingdom & CLAN Policies
  • Kingdom policies can add a modifier over time
Instead of tiers only dictating & player skills. IE: A train archers policy after 3 years in game will provide a +10 accuracy faction wide or more (or between 3-12, which would allow a range of added skill, which is more realistic than flat benefit).
  • Kingdom policies should also take time to implement fully
Instead of giving an instant bonus, which is totally duncy, unrealistic etc. This forces the player to think ahead, and gives the game MORE TIME to react to changes. A BIG **** UP IN BANNERLORD BALANCING IS DUE TO INSTANT HUGE CHANGES. These changes should take place over time, and focus on AVERAGES, instead of CURRENT inventories. Its totally ****ed up that buying all the food in a town ****s its brains out. Therefore, AVERAGES are a much better way to judge the impact of events, over time, instead of instantly.
  • Clan Policies (Added May 1st, 2020)
Similar to the Kingdom policies, clans should be able to enact their own policies. This obviously should go to a vote within their clan council, thus adding to the levels of relationships one has to deal with. These policies should have effects similar to kingdom, even when you dont have a kingdom (clan level 1-3 you still have parties that recruit and get money etc even if you arent a vassal). The purpose is to introduce kingdom management earlier to the player, bring influence into the game earlier and have the player also deal with their clan to really make strong changes (bigger than the kingdom policies, since they are at a lower level and easier to enforce)
4. Form of Banking (for macro balance)
I think there should be some consideration here for the banks. As I understand it, the caravans and cities have money, and thus purchase/sell goods (i imagine there is some use to having a minimum amount of money as a rule, otherwise purchases cant happen.
  • But what happens when a player sells all goods to city, and no more money is left for them to purchase goods?
I think some form of banking here should apply, perhaps by virtue of the cities notables, who have a stockpile of cash to lend etc, and bring in caravans of goods (since, if their city goes to ****, they risk losing everything they have/their workshops/physical holdings become at risk for pillaging/less food=less garrison/militia = more likely to get conquered)
  • A Faction bank?
Of course this is not very realistic, I think the faction goods + a faction 'bank' (pool of money where taxes go from other clans + the ruling clans fiefs) can have a role or function here. IE when low on faction goods (which can include some global food modifier through this +1 food BS that needs to be averaged over time, instead of instant supply -> here the modifier acts as some instant supply or quasi instant (over a week period) to help stabilize things. The idea is, in a time of war and desperate need, a faction can use diplomacy and trade and resources to smooth out some of their problems, and actually incentivize them to peace / diplomacy, and even incentivize to war if they cannot get certain goods!!

This faction bank will be important to stock and by extension have peace and pursue peace if you cannot use your funds to fix your issues (and thus pursue some form of economic prosperity, either raiding others and selling or growing your fiefs for production / tax -> here, grown fiefs are a target for weak factions, and weak factions can alternatively grow their own fiefs instead. Giving multiple ways to stock the faction bank (passive/active), and so more control to react to changes in the game (for player and NPC)

  • Overall
I think this is a good framework to really bring Bannerlord to a higher level, but more importantly, it can help solve a lot of the issues players are having with balance, which also adds stress to the developers, who have to swoop in and fix another thing, for another issue to pop up etc. I have outlined the way to think about this in my PS to Taleworlds below.
The key here, is for the in game changes to slowly take place over time, which are more affected by averages, than current daily supply (IE, weekly, monthly & quarterly averages, that would more likely have an economic impact), and for this to be gradual (instead of plus +1 militia etc. overnight , 0.1 each week until it reaches the max.

Its totally unrealistic to implement any changes overnight (in the real world!) besides the 'veneer' of the decision IE decision to implementation takes time, and so the changes by virtue should slowly be realized -> this will benefit bannerlord.

PS: Taleworlds -> on economics - consult any economist, or just economic principles to understand that what you have implemented severely hampered the game, and makes it totally ****ed up for your to manage balancing..... Changes in the economy as a whole do not happen over night, and 1 delivery of goods or 1 burned settlement shouldnt destroy the game. There are macro, and micro concepts -> the number one rule in economics is holding all things the same -> the fact is one change creates a spiral of changes, which is why you hold all things constant in a model (which is not realistic, and why they are only 'models'!), or else you would be constantly changing your calculation of this model, as inputs and outputs change due to whatever is set out in the model you are forecasting/changing!!!

This is why it is extremely important for all changes to occur slowly over time & incrementally (which is actually what occurs!), or your changes become faster and bigger ('higher peaks and valleys') and spiral out of control & more broadly -> to have a stabilizing factor to counter balance this from a macro level, instead of micro to macro.


This will also help with food shortages etc, as it will be calculated as an average of consumption/availability, not 0 availability = instant crash. There should be some intermediate here. After lets say, 3 days of no food, the effects start (if a player/npc purchases all food), and the negative effect is cancelled when supply is returned.
 
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Yes very nice indeed! Maybe a bit too much micromanagement for me.

1. Maybe a bit too much micromanagement for me. But I have suggested introducing tradegoods to abstract troopgear where parties need to stock gear to improve the troops they have when fielded. This tradegoods should be created in all fiefs depending on prosperity and buildings, as well as traded. What´s not in the suggestiontread is that some perks in the Stewardship tree should enable creating these goods from spoils/loot.

2. I want manpower in the game of some sort too. My suggestion is to use militia growth as basic manpower(reprecenting both Levy and Freemen) in the sence that when a new party is summoned, it extracts from holding militia counts anc convert them to freemen tree(recruits etc) for a small fee.. This way militia growt is essential for all lords for a quick comeback after a defeat - to be able to field a bew party without weakening defence.

3. I don't understund this part. Early game you and your brother are the clan and your brother can't spend your influence against you? You would probably need another currency or involve fief notables in the politics
 

kreamy

Sergeant
Yes very nice indeed! Maybe a bit too much micromanagement for me.

1. Maybe a bit too much micromanagement for me. But I have suggested introducing tradegoods to abstract troopgear where parties need to stock gear to improve the troops they have when fielded. This tradegoods should be created in all fiefs depending on prosperity and buildings, as well as traded. What´s not in the suggestiontread is that some perks in the Stewardship tree should enable creating these goods from spoils/loot.

2. I want manpower in the game of some sort too. My suggestion is to use militia growth as basic manpower(reprecenting both Levy and Freemen) in the sence that when a new party is summoned, it extracts from holding militia counts anc convert them to freemen tree(recruits etc) for a small fee.. This way militia growt is essential for all lords for a quick comeback after a defeat - to be able to field a bew party without weakening defence.

3. I don't understund this part. Early game you and your brother are the clan and your brother can't spend your influence against you? You would probably need another currency or involve fief notables in the politics
1. So some kind of produced 'upgrade supply/equipment unit' (analogous to war horses for tier 5-7 cavalry?) - but which is not an actual in game armor (which are expensive). - Is this what you are saying?

2. is the manpower constant, or replenishing (such as the current system)? - in your system, it seems like these manpower are always available (to a growing limit), but is not limited by the cost of upkeep to actually having them all (as opposed to the mechanic that you can recruit a limited amount of troops per fief, that are waiting for free). - Is this what you are saying?

3. this is not fully fleshed out, and thank you for pointing it out - you are correct, it doesnt make much sense at the moment.
 
1. So some kind of produced 'upgrade supply/equipment unit' (analogous to war horses for tier 5-7 cavalry?) - but which is not an actual in game armor (which are expensive). - Is this what you are saying?

Yep, upgrading troops cost gear tradegoods and money.(and a (war)horse if target is cavalry as is). The prices I suggested in the thread is maybe a bit low, to not scare players of to easely. Gear is very overpriced in the game, you can field quite an warband on just harwesting looters. This would help balancing the economy towards cheaper standard-gear(at least up to T4) and more expensive troops. War is costly and not a driver in the economy. I know my suggestion is an abstraction compared to yours but I think your is a bit too micromanaging.

2. is the manpower constant, or replenishing (such as the current system)? - in your system, it seems like these manpower are always available (to a growing limit), but is not limited by the cost of upkeep to actually having them all (as opposed to the mechanic that you can recruit a limited amount of troops per fief, that are waiting for free). - Is this what you are saying?

I´m thinking of it building on the current system, yes. The manpower is armed trained peasants. They are working the fields when not defending their home so paying for them is not an option.(you don't pay for them for defending your fief currently). Drafting them into proper recruits does not seem to me as a big deal. I mean, you take 50 from your militia to kickstart a new party. You are paying some gold for it. How much I am open to diskuss. If we consider point 1 as well, you would need to arm them as well, either your way or my way. It could even reduce prosperity as you are removing seasoned workers from the labourforce(Prosperity could also be a recruitment currency, by the way.prosperity over 500 required, 20% gives 50 recruites... Expensive kickstart if you are on 6000 prosperity...).

Taking 50 militias out seems like a small price compared to running around 20+ villages recruiting everything you see. But after a few partywipes, these 50 is a heavy price. No militia means your fief is an easy target.

I don't like how people are magically summoned. Where does the 10th AI lord respawn force come from, while their city is guarded by 700 militias + garrison.
 
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