Kingdom vs independent clan

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Akka

Sergeant at Arms
So, it might seems a pretty basic question, but I couldn't find an answer, and somehow I realize I never actually really wondered about it until now.

You know it's possible to siege and capture a settlement as an independent clan, so you can get territory even without being a kingdom.
But what I wonder is : what are the fundamental differences between independent clan and kingdom, in game mechanics ?

As a clan, you can't create armies, set policies, give fiefs and have other clans join you.
Is there other changes between independence and kingdom ? How does diplomacy work ? Do you have lower status than being a king that are noticed by characters ? How are you considered by the game (a minor faction ?) and how does it work differently from a kingdom ?
Do other kingdoms declare war on you ? Can you take over the map (with patience :p) without actually needing to make a kingdom at all ?

I don't know if it's just common knowledge I missed or if people haven't really bothered because not being able to get armies or clans is such a deal-breaker, but I wonder how are the mechanical differences and how a "non-kingdom" country is treated.
 
How does diplomacy work ?
todd-howard-it-just-works.gif

I don´t think that the AI cares about you beeing a king or just a dirty peasant.
 
So, it might seems a pretty basic question, but I couldn't find an answer, and somehow I realize I never actually really wondered about it until now.

You know it's possible to siege and capture a settlement as an independent clan, so you can get territory even without being a kingdom.
But what I wonder is : what are the fundamental differences between independent clan and kingdom, in game mechanics ?

As a clan, you can't create armies, set policies, give fiefs and have other clans join you.
Is there other changes between independence and kingdom ? How does diplomacy work ? Do you have lower status than being a king that are noticed by characters ? How are you considered by the game (a minor faction ?) and how does it work differently from a kingdom ?
Do other kingdoms declare war on you ? Can you take over the map (with patience :p) without actually needing to make a kingdom at all ?

I don't know if it's just common knowledge I missed or if people haven't really bothered because not being able to get armies or clans is such a deal-breaker, but I wonder how are the mechanical differences and how a "non-kingdom" country is treated.
As independant clan, you control diplomacy with other factions, factions can not declare war or peace with independant clans.
 
As an independent clan your main advantage is nobody can declare war on you(?1). You can attack a faction, take a fief, pay of peace with a lord of the enemy and it will last until you attack them again. This is supposed to be balanced by it costing a lot more if you do this to a faction again, but it doesn't seem to always work out that way. It should cost say 200k to make peace the first time and then 500K the second time, 800K+ so on. however the enemies situation effects this and if you keep fighting them the price will drop much lower, in some situations they will even pay you for peace. Of course if you take from a rebel faction this part doesn't matter because they go bye bye (?2) after you defeat them.
This advantage can be even further used by doing things like using the perks keensight (225 scouting) and mounted patrols (225 riding) on you main character to prevent lords form escaping you party prisoners and just rounding them all up and slowly taking all thier land at you leisure.
(?1) I've read someone say the AI will attack "player faction" if you're independent, but I haven't seen it yet, if so it's a new change from a hotfix or something.
(?2)Sometimes due to bugs the don't go bye bye, but they're still not much of a problem.

The disadvantages are (1) No army, so no fast raising leadership skill, less potential field power. (2) No policies, you gotta personally sort out all issues and town upgrades and garrisons set ups to maintain security and loyalty! All you! All day every day! (3) No making clan from wanderers or recruiting other clans, just you and your stinky tavern buddies and family too if you're on campaign of course.
(4) If you're only taking from rebels you can end up with fiefs spread out all over, if you then make a kingdom having fiefs bordering so many faction may cause more war declaration against you and be unreasonable to defend.

The best use of this is just as a stepping stone, Taking 1 or a few fiefs (or a faction or 2 ...), getting them all set up and then starting a normal faction to pass policies and create clans and expand.

How are you considered by the game (a minor faction ?)
You cannot become a mercenary but other then that you're treated the same as a landless non-vassal.
Do you have lower status than being a king that are noticed by characters ?
They don't care you'll get "I hurd you took *fief name*" just for taking a fief and few quests will let you choose a extra option, though sometimes this is bugged and tells you you can't because you have no influence.
Can you take over the map (with patience :p)
Yes, however even my patience has it's limits, the most I took solo (with no executions...) was ALL of the khuzait fiefs, all of the Aserai fiefs, the top half of vlandia and a few assorted towns that rebelled else wear. It gets pretty boring but it's fun to try at least once. Although with even more changes to loyalty and security taking this much land alone (no policies) may be more sucky now, too many hideouts and issues.
 
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(4) If you're only taking from rebels you can end up with fiefs spread out all over, if you then make a kingdom having fiefs bordering so many faction may cause more war declaration against you and be unreasonable to defend.
If you are taking fiefs in rebellion, they can end up quite far-flung. But you can trade those that are too far away to maintain for something closer.

Example: My holdings are centered on Sargot. But when I was running around trading horses, I saw that Tyal went into rebellion right in from of me. No time for the Sturgia or the Khuzait to get to it to win it back. So I took it from the rebels. Then I traded it to a Battanian lord for Pen Cannoc, which was right next door to Sargot. I had to pay some cash, but Pen Cannot was much more prosperous and had much better revenue figures, so that was OK. I got Pen Cannoc at a deeply discounted price.

And some Battanian lord is stuck with Tyal way the hell and gone across the board because I don;t they they are programmed to say No.
 
I noticed this one time and it made me wonder, is this the reason why the minor factions (the mercenary clans) don't have a fortress? ? You know, as a sort of oversight by the devs.
Actually there was an oversight before where the minor clan could be given fiefs but they would still leave when they wanted too. This was updated to no longer be possible, I'm not sure if the player could be a merc with a fief before that change or not. I guess probably they would have do some work to sort it out now if they did add bases for the minor clans. However could have them not be fiefs or directly connected to the actual clan parties but more just a place for the player to take on special quests for them or recruit thier special troops, but special gear with special points earned by doing special quests... you know SPECIAL, FUN, like in a video game!
 
Actually there was an oversight before where the minor clan could be given fiefs but they would still leave when they wanted too. This was updated to no longer be possible, I'm not sure if the player could be a merc with a fief before that change or not. I guess probably they would have do some work to sort it out now if they did add bases for the minor clans. However could have them not be fiefs or directly connected to the actual clan parties but more just a place for the player to take on special quests for them or recruit thier special troops, but special gear with special points earned by doing special quests... you know SPECIAL, FUN, like in a video game!
Sounds like I missed a fun update if mercenary clans could leave with their own fiefs.

Oh well I really, really do hope TW actually ends up giving them fortresses to do the things you suggest, because currently you barely ever get to interact with mercenary clans
 
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