Killing
- 主题发起人 Obilic
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Jome
Moss 说:
I knew that, thanks.
Jome
I was just trying to look smart.
Captain Pyjama Shark
Grandmaster Knight
Though I would never say that Hitler was a good thing to happen to Germany, because everything that he may have done to help them seemed a bit insignificant when you take the fact that he completely destroyed his nation and was bent on having every single German die before him, Stalin was still worse. I'd take Nazi Germany over Soviet Russia any day.
Also, you guys also seem to be under the belief that every single German was either a die-hard fascist or an anti-Nazi conscript. While yes, the vast majority of any army was unwilling conscripts, there was still a great number of non-Nazi volunteers, who saw the situation as one of "My country, right or wrong." Members of the Wehrmacht were not even allowed to join the Nazi Party.
Also, you guys also seem to be under the belief that every single German was either a die-hard fascist or an anti-Nazi conscript. While yes, the vast majority of any army was unwilling conscripts, there was still a great number of non-Nazi volunteers, who saw the situation as one of "My country, right or wrong." Members of the Wehrmacht were not even allowed to join the Nazi Party.
Jome
Also, some of the germans were also in the underground.
Atleast, so it was here in holland.
Atleast, so it was here in holland.
Captain Pyjama Shark
Grandmaster Knight
Many Germans, especially communists, also fought as expatriates in the FTP and the Maquis.
Jome
Yup.
Captain Pyjama Shark 说:
Yeah, these things we know. Statistically speaking though, very few volunteers weren't believers in the Nazi ideal and it's a little hard to swallow the "I was only serving my country!" line seeing as it was the usual defense for people charged with war crimes after the war. Also what has the fact that members of the Wehrmacht not being able to join the Nazi party got to do with anything? They weren't allowed to hold positions in the political party to prevent the army from having influence on the government, it's got nothing to do with whether or not the soldiers believed in the cause. It's a standard practise in any modern country, a man cannot hold a military position and a position in the government simultaneously.
Kasimir
Knight
Moss 说:No of course they weren't.
They just believed that they were the most pure blooded and superior people on earth and that the slaughter of millions and millions of people, simply because they were inferior races and therefore little better than animals, was perfectly acceptable. They also believed in other hilarious stuff like hollow earth theory.
As for most of the troops, Nazi Germany was ruled with an iron fist. Soldiers did not volunteer, they were conscripted and if they deserted their families would meet with ugly fates. The years they'd spent going through severe hardship caused by the over the top economic sanctions and reparations at the end of the first world war probably didn't help things either.
Also because they were told to do bad things. According to the Milgram experiment, a fairly consistant 61-66% of the test groups for his experiments would be theoretically willing to electrically torture someone to death because a man in a lab coat told them to. They were uncomfortable with it, but they administered what they believed to be fatal electric shocks under what was relatively speaking minor duress. A main point of the experiment was to determine if ordinary Americans would obey immoral orders, as the Germans had done during the Nazi period.
Add in the climate of fear, social conformity from the other 61-66%, economic dependancy, and the belief the rest of Europe was against them (from the sanctions and reparations you mentioned) and suddenly it becomes very easy for most of the country to be pushed into committing horrific acts.
Actually, one interesting note of the Milgram experiment is that the compliance decreased as one was more involved with the process - which presents a whole new aspect of gas chambers, since they were a far more remote way to kill people.
FrisianDude
Archduke
I thought it had been designed in his own era.Moss 说:
Didn't he ask (would-be) car producers to produce a decent and relatively cheap car design? While probably not the best source:
wikipedia 说:
Ofcourse, doesn't change the fact Hitler was a hateful piece of crap. (And mr. Porsche went on his merry way to help design the Tiger I and II and the Elefant tanks.)
Considering that manufacturing of the "People's vehicle" didn't start till after the war, and the general car design was already done two or so years before he asked for it you can't really give him credit for it. Although I'm surprised how old the chassis design is, it hardly changed in the two or three decades it took for the car to become popular outside of Germany.
Although if he could be blamed for the production of the Beetle I'm not sure I wouldn't consider that yet another war crime to his long list.
Although if he could be blamed for the production of the Beetle I'm not sure I wouldn't consider that yet another war crime to his long list.
I don't think you can make much of a case for this at all. At first, when the going was good for Germany, people would volunteer because they would like to be part of restoring Germany's greatness. As things started going south, again it was patriotism that made people volunteer, not Nazi ideals. Insofar as people volunteered for political reasons, they tended to volunteer against Bolschevism rather than for National Socialism.Moss 说:
So... because the guilty say "I'm innocent!", that means everyone who says "I'm innocent!" is guilty? That's kind of the logic you are using here.
Kissaki 说:
It depends on what you define as "nazi ideal". Hitler couldn't manage it, so there's not much hope here
Suggesting people joined up because they advocated the political party is as ridiculous as saying people today join the army because they support The Liberal Democrats. However, in terms of non-political ideology I suspect Moss is correct, largely by default. Lebensraum is simple human nature, "I believe Germans deserve better because I am German, and I want better".
By the ideals upheld by the Nazi party I meant more the "German's first, Superior race" ideal. The idea that their nationality made them different and better, justifying warfare and occupation of other countries. In a sense the concept that was preached was little more than a very extreme form of patriotism.
My apologies, should have defined what I meant by the term.
My apologies, should have defined what I meant by the term.
Sir Lulzalot
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Moss 说:
And a very convenient form of dehumanization. Its a lot easier to shoot at a beast than a human.
Ghoura Agur
Sergeant at Arms
Captain Pyjama Shark 说:
I take it you're not one of those "jews" "useless eaters" or other social undesirables.
Not that they had it any better in mother Russia. Anyhow...when comes that point, after being dragged through the fires of battle too long, when the soldiers start collecting trophies like teeth? That's and interesting point, almost as if when the light of humanity dims.
Captain Pyjama Shark
Grandmaster Knight
Ghoura Agur 说:Captain Pyjama Shark 说:
I take it you're not one of those "jews" "useless eaters" or other social undesirables.
Exactly. I'm no bigot, I'm just telling the truth. I'd be safe. Well, until 1945 and I was thrown into the hail of fire from the Russian army to give Hitler another couple minutes of life. But that's not what the conversation is about, eh?
Captain Pyjama Shark
Grandmaster Knight
That is such a great way to put it.perthy25 说:
