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Kickslash
- 主题发起人 Sarranid The Wibba
- 开始时间
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Does the meta actually require skill tho? This is supposed to be a medieval combat game not some Taekwondo game
I think it's interesting there is a new offensive option in the game, it generally is quite hard to force a kill against someone who simply tanks and doesn't take any risks which can be frustrating. The problem occurs when an offensive options becomes too reliable and simultaneously low risk, it then simply becomes the best option, so much so that fights become "who can land kicks best" rather than the trade of blows in a fluid duel, which is what we see in the current version of Bannerlord. However, some people hate the style of fighting using just your weapons without "moves". So it becomes a question of what you want the game to be.
Another thing I have not really seen mentioned is how the kicks break every rule bannerlord has regarding input delays. When jumping, swinging, and even the most basic of defensive tools like manual blocking all have fairly significant windups or delays attached, its pretty weird to see a footpunch to the balls as one of the most instantly responsive inputs a player can give.
Im a college tennis player. We are drilled basically from birth to do our split steps as early as possible because our legs are never going to be faster than our arms at getting into position or moving where we want them to be. Because our feet lag behind our arms so much, players get into their ready position absurdly early, before the ball is even over the net and into our side of the court. The next time you are watching tennis pay attention to the players feet and you'll notice them doing this. It really sticks out.
Im a college tennis player. We are drilled basically from birth to do our split steps as early as possible because our legs are never going to be faster than our arms at getting into position or moving where we want them to be. Because our feet lag behind our arms so much, players get into their ready position absurdly early, before the ball is even over the net and into our side of the court. The next time you are watching tennis pay attention to the players feet and you'll notice them doing this. It really sticks out.
I agree with you 100%. It is too reliable and too easy right now but it should stay an offensive tool and the mechanic of a guaranteed hit if you manage to hit the kick should stay in the game. In the end hitting a kick does require you to position and time well.
I've had fights where the infantry run up and only try to land a kick. Thats their whole strategy for winning the fight. Its not like they're waiting for a chance where my footwork is bad or I'm in a bad position, they just run and click E, and its hard to punish it since they can block my attacks while kicking, I'd hardly call them skilled players, but they do get alot of kills this wayi and fighting them is more frustrating than anything.
Finding a way for kicks to be used agressively isnt that important surely, just make shield hp lower against melee attacks. Most of the turtle players I've found cant block anyway, so once the shield is broken they die.
Finding a way for kicks to be used agressively isnt that important surely, just make shield hp lower against melee attacks. Most of the turtle players I've found cant block anyway, so once the shield is broken they die.
kicks r op
rektasaurus
Squire
IMO kickslashing was easier in Warband, and I thought it was great then. It's harder to get now in Bannerlord, assuming the person being kicked-at isn't standing still, and the punish window on a successful kick is much tighter than Warband. I honestly don't understand the complaints at this time.
I've never used them, but I think kick-jav and kick-shot should also stay in the game - it's a risk vs reward system. If the kicker misses their kick, they have a ranged weapon equipped and are forced to be stationary without being able to block in front of a melee opponent.
For the people getting kicked, literally all you need to do is not run directly at the person kicking. Before you get in kicking range, start strafing and do a side swing - or stop short to bait a kick; the kick has such short range that it cannot hit a target that is not directly in front of the kicker. Learn to move a little better, and you'll find it really isn't a problem.
Having said this, I'm open to being wrong - maybe people have been subject to examples that I haven't seen..
I've never used them, but I think kick-jav and kick-shot should also stay in the game - it's a risk vs reward system. If the kicker misses their kick, they have a ranged weapon equipped and are forced to be stationary without being able to block in front of a melee opponent.
For the people getting kicked, literally all you need to do is not run directly at the person kicking. Before you get in kicking range, start strafing and do a side swing - or stop short to bait a kick; the kick has such short range that it cannot hit a target that is not directly in front of the kicker. Learn to move a little better, and you'll find it really isn't a problem.
Having said this, I'm open to being wrong - maybe people have been subject to examples that I haven't seen..
@chubbychode123 yeah I agree.
I think part of it is that in NA people only recently started using them - for a long time it seemed most people believed that you had to hold attack to kickslash and that it was some kind of unintentional bug when of course you just need to input your attack within like 250ms of a successful kick.
But yeah, if someone is running straight toward you, feint a stab then kick them or just kick them, or S key and overhead.
Now I will agree that blocking during the kick needs to be fixed. Currently you can block IMMEDIATELY after kicking, to the point where you can essentially kick and block at the same time and that has been confirmed as a bug.
I do agree with @Aprikosenmann that kicks are punished in that you're stationary and people can move behind you, but I do think maybe the recovery for a failed kick should be like 200ms longer.
I think part of it is that in NA people only recently started using them - for a long time it seemed most people believed that you had to hold attack to kickslash and that it was some kind of unintentional bug when of course you just need to input your attack within like 250ms of a successful kick.
But yeah, if someone is running straight toward you, feint a stab then kick them or just kick them, or S key and overhead.
Now I will agree that blocking during the kick needs to be fixed. Currently you can block IMMEDIATELY after kicking, to the point where you can essentially kick and block at the same time and that has been confirmed as a bug.
I do agree with @Aprikosenmann that kicks are punished in that you're stationary and people can move behind you, but I do think maybe the recovery for a failed kick should be like 200ms longer.
@WOLFGEIST ah that makes sense.
I'm on the same page with a slightly increased punishment window for a missed kick, maybe 100 ms or so - I duel in OCE a fair bit with other players of >1k hours, and a missed kick is already basically a guaranteed hit against you depending on the movement speed of your opponent, so I don't think it needs to be much worse. Also the blocking after kicking I'm pretty OK with - the punishment for me usually comes from being circled, or being hit while trying to kick. Having said that, I don't really use shields so I kick pretty often and block while kicking, which was also carried over from Warband.
All-in-all I'm pretty happy with it, and would be disappointed if it was no longer a true-combo (I probably would never kick again tbh - the risk v reward balance would completely disappear).
I'm on the same page with a slightly increased punishment window for a missed kick, maybe 100 ms or so - I duel in OCE a fair bit with other players of >1k hours, and a missed kick is already basically a guaranteed hit against you depending on the movement speed of your opponent, so I don't think it needs to be much worse. Also the blocking after kicking I'm pretty OK with - the punishment for me usually comes from being circled, or being hit while trying to kick. Having said that, I don't really use shields so I kick pretty often and block while kicking, which was also carried over from Warband.
All-in-all I'm pretty happy with it, and would be disappointed if it was no longer a true-combo (I probably would never kick again tbh - the risk v reward balance would completely disappear).
No it's definitely easier in Bannerlord, it just works differently so if you try to do it Warband style it isn't effective. In Warband, the kick is a long animation and leaves you vulnerable, as such it's best used defensively. If successful though, it causes a long stun, getting an easy hit.
In Bannerlord, if you hold with a weapon and kick while moving towards them, if you do it properly you can instantly kick them even if they are moving away from you, and then get a free hit in with the held attack. This is because the kick is so fast you don't get stopped long enough while kicking that it lands, and you get the hit off because you were already holding an attack (which also pressures the opponent to block, making them an easier kick target).
edit: maybe easier isn't the right word, but instead far more effective and with much less counter than in Warband, whilst not being very hard to do and with little risk
In Bannerlord, if you hold with a weapon and kick while moving towards them, if you do it properly you can instantly kick them even if they are moving away from you, and then get a free hit in with the held attack. This is because the kick is so fast you don't get stopped long enough while kicking that it lands, and you get the hit off because you were already holding an attack (which also pressures the opponent to block, making them an easier kick target).
edit: maybe easier isn't the right word, but instead far more effective and with much less counter than in Warband, whilst not being very hard to do and with little risk
I firmly support TW reducing the speed of the kick (or giving it a longer wind-up) to limit its offensive capabilities. I recognize that there is a need for a mechanic to kill s keying shield huggers, so i propose instead TW implement a tackling mechanic where the player sheathes their weapon and tackles their opponent to the ground along a vertical line. It will break up the monotony of a fight and make it so winning a 2v1 can happen almost instantaneously, which I'm given to understand is important since in BL numbers > skill. If the tackling is unable to be implemented, they could always give a big windup to the shield bash and let you knock people over that way!
on top of that we should be able to wind up throwing spears to go through shields on close range.
Biyonik
Sergeant
We should also make that you can send a tactical nuke if you have man advantage
I suppose the questions we should consider are:
- What are the purposes of the kick as a game mechanic?
- What should be the risk v reward of kicking?
- Addressing your concern specifically:- should you be able to kick an opponent that is moving backwards?
- Addressing the focus of the poll in this thread specifically:- should the defender have an opportunity to chamber to if kicked?
- Should kick-shot and kick-jav be removed from the game?
- The purposes of the kick are to:
- Interrupt players that are turtling behind shields.
- Be way to change the flow of combat.
- Potentially be a way to give people with ranged weapons (bows, throwing weapons) an opportunity to change weapons when approached for melee.
- With the above purpose in mind:
- The rewards of the kick, if landed, should:
- At least give a guaranteed hit on a blocking shielded opponent - otherwise its primary purpose is completely redundant.
- Perhaps give a guaranteed hit on unshielded and unblocking opponents, depending on how the devs want to balance the game (and I personally prefer this assuming the kick is difficult to land and has balanced risks).
- Give the kicker an opportunity to change weapons.
- The risks of the kick, if missed, should:
- Provide the person being kicked-at an advantage in combat, at a level that balances the advantages of the kick, e.g. a reactable opportunity to hit the person who has missed their kick. Unfortunately, I think the punish-window for missing a kick in the game right now is a little small. Perhaps the window should be increased to improve the opportunity for the person being kicked-at to land a hit. I think Warband had this window timing down quite well.
- The rewards of the kick, if landed, should:
- I think it is necessary to fulfil the primary purpose of the kick as a mechanic to at least allow the kick to hit someone that is moving backwards while blocking with a shield. Whether you should be able to kick someone that isn't blocking with a shield is a point of preference, but I personally think this should be possible too. I was testing this with some friends tonight, and while kicking someone that was moving backwards in a straight line was fairly easy, we were not ONCE able to kick someone that was concious of being kicked and was thus being careful with their footwork. I don't think this is a problem in it's current state, and thus I think the start-up speed of the kick now is quite good.
- Should the defender have an opportunity to chamber if kicked? I think this is a bad idea. Assuming they fix chambering and it becomes reliable (and thus fairly easy for the pros), being able to assuredly eliminate the chance of a getting hit after being kicked eliminates the risk-reward of kicking in the first place, and again destroys the primary purpsose of kicking in the first place - it was just encourage more people to stay behind shields (which in my opinion is the most boring part of M&B combat).
- I think kick-shot and kick-jav are great mechanics. To get either of them, you have to hold a ranged weapon in melee combat, which is usually a guaranteed hit for the person in melee. If the person in melee doesn't run in a straight line at the ranged person, it is very hard (almost impossible) to land a kick on them. Thus I think the risk-reward for this mechanic is already quite balanced.
Cheerio, ChubbyChode.
The above post was great and I mostly agreed with it until the kick jav part. Maybe if the zone of control that bumps the ranged user was increased a bit more then I could be ok with kick jav being an obscure but flashy move(with the above posts “suggestions”) to pull off but not until then.
Thank you for a most eloquent post, "chubbychode". Disagree with the following:
It's the nature of MnB, especially combined classes in competitive environment, that people need to reposition, back off, and survive in situations where they're outnumbered. This necessitates some allowance for backing off while blocking. It was also possible with the current speed of kicks to force a defensive stance by holding an attack immediately after running forward (so the opponent is now forced to be slow and blocking) and so guarantee an easy kick slash, which becomes even difficult to counter in a 1vX situation. I say was because I'm fairly certain the upcoming patch is going to address this.
For me, slowing down the release of the kick is just inevitable to get rid of this, while still keeping the ability to kick people who turtle and s-key permanently, as you can see this and position appropriately.
It's the nature of MnB, especially combined classes in competitive environment, that people need to reposition, back off, and survive in situations where they're outnumbered. This necessitates some allowance for backing off while blocking. It was also possible with the current speed of kicks to force a defensive stance by holding an attack immediately after running forward (so the opponent is now forced to be slow and blocking) and so guarantee an easy kick slash, which becomes even difficult to counter in a 1vX situation. I say was because I'm fairly certain the upcoming patch is going to address this.
For me, slowing down the release of the kick is just inevitable to get rid of this, while still keeping the ability to kick people who turtle and s-key permanently, as you can see this and position appropriately.
