Khuzait Solution

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five bucks

Squire
Actually, nomads in RL in the Middle Ages steamrolled the entire map several times :grin:
Might want to be a bit more careful with the words "entire map" as no nomadic empire has ever conquered all of Europe (or all of Asia).

When conquests like those of the Mongols occurred, it wasn't because nomadic horse archery was an inherently superior method of waging war; though it did have advantages. It was due to a combination of many factors. A large factor was that most of the nations they defeated had unstable governments at the time.

Additionally, since you mention RL, Bannerlord's setting is based on the 600-1100 time period in Europe, North Africa and the Near East, and in this time/place, the Avar and Khazar Khanates, some of the inspirations to the Khuzaits in Bannerlord, actually got wiped out. If we wanted to follow real life to the letter, the Khuzaits should actually be the first kingdom to die, rather than steamroll.

Not that I am actually suggesting that. I'd prefer a game where every faction is reasonably balanced, except Battania is a bit weaker as the "underdog" faction, and the Empire factions are predisposed to destroy each other.
I can pass through a whole mass of Kuzaits with a couple of minor arrow wounds... but passing through a clump of Faris... each with a one hit javelin missile... scary stuff.
I wouldn't call losing a third of your health from an arrow while wearing a full set of lamellar, like I did just yesterday when fighting Khuzaits, "minor wounds"
 
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LDominating

Regular
Might want to be a bit more careful with the words "entire map" as no nomadic empire has ever conquered all of Europe (or all of Asia).

When conquests like those of the Mongols occurred, it wasn't because nomadic horse archery was an inherently superior method of waging war; though it did have advantages. It was due to a combination of many factors. A large factor was that most of the nations they defeated had unstable governments at the time.

Additionally, since you mention RL, Bannerlord's setting is based on the 600-1100 time period in Europe, North Africa and the Near East, and in this time/place, the Avar and Khazar Khanates, some of the inspirations to the Khuzaits in Bannerlord, actually got wiped out. If we wanted to follow real life to the letter, the Khuzaits should actually be the first kingdom to die, rather than steamroll.

Not that I am actually suggesting that. I'd prefer a game where every faction is reasonably balanced, except Battania is a bit weaker as the "underdog" faction, and the Empire factions are predisposed to destroy each other.

I wouldn't call losing a third of your health from an arrow while wearing a full set of lamellar, like I did just yesterday when fighting Khuzaits, "minor wounds"
Yea.
The khaganates of the times would get defeated and absorbed into Slavic Principalities.
I.E Sturgia absorbing Khuzait.
 
javelin armed cavalry are next level scary
Do they even hit anything unless they themselves are massed or are aiming at a group.. I swear I let the camera follow them when I'm downed in a battle and they never hit anything when they eventually do throw after aiming for 1 minute.
Then there's the problem of only have 4 javs compared to a horse archer's 1-2stack of arrows
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
I wouldn't call losing a third of your health from an arrow while wearing a full set of lamellar, like I did just yesterday when fighting Khuzaits, "minor wounds"
It is in comparison to being outright one-shot off your horse, regardless of orientation (charging, pulling back, moving parallel) to the guy with a javelin.
 

R1919

Veteran
Yea.
The khaganates of the times would get defeated and absorbed into Slavic Principalities.
I.E Sturgia absorbing Khuzait.
Is this some alternate history?
Additionally, since you mention RL, Bannerlord's setting is based on the 600-1100 time period in Europe, North Africa and the Near East, and in this time/place, the Avar and Khazar Khanates, some of the inspirations to the Khuzaits in Bannerlord, actually got wiped out. If we wanted to follow real life to the letter, the Khuzaits should actually be the first kingdom to die, rather than steamroll.
"Some of the inspirations" but not all - it's more like collective image of nomads, like Huns, Turks, Mongols and etc. And nomads of the Medieval times were OP until late XVII century when professional armies appeared.
 

Danny5

Sergeant at Arms
Better to remove Sturgia from the game - they are dumb and dull. Who ever would play this?
Only people will play them of they want a real challenge to the game, having bad troops, makes the game harder for players
 

LDominating

Regular
Literally how I select which kingdom to join lol
Vlandia/Khuzaits - Easy
Aserai/Empire - Normal
Sturgia/Battania - Hard
No.
Battania/Khuzait -- Easy
Empire/Aserai/Vlandia --- Normal
Your kingdom --- Hard
Sturgia --- Sturgian difficulty.


With Battania spam Archers and cavalry depending on your foe(Vlandia or Aserai if you expant in W Empire).
Their Horsemen have probably the longest spears (235 length) so they won't die that easily unlike a few other Horsemen.
Rest of their troops are pretty good.
Keep Wildlings and the right troop tree in other separate sections and micromanage them,believe me...you'll lose them in the main infantry line.
 

five bucks

Squire
"Some of the inspirations" but not all - it's more like collective image of nomads, like Huns, Turks, Mongols and etc.
Yes, Avars, Kipchaks, Gokturks, Khazars and Mongols are the combined inspiration for Khuzaits, and out of those, only Avars/Kipchaks/Khazars are actually from the place and time Bannerlord is trying to portray, and those three groups got their asses kicked fairly quickly. Goes to show that nomadic horse archers aren't actually that "OP" in real life as a method of warfare, and have actually spent a lot of time being destroyed or marginalized.

Sure they had their times of success, overwhelming in the case of the Mongols, but as I said that was due to a variety of factors, not just that they used lots of bows and horses and didn't live in fixed dwellings.
It is in comparison to being outright one-shot off your horse, regardless of orientation (charging, pulling back, moving parallel) to the guy with a javelin.
No, even then it still isn't. Even in an arcadey game full of oneshots by design, the phrase "minor wounds" would still be nonsensical to describe losing 1/3 of your health.
And I'm not sure who you're helping by comparing one broken overpowered part to another broken overpowered part of the game, as opposed to comparing it to all sources of damage in the game.

Taking 3 damage from a spear is a "minor wound".
 

Aurex

Veteran
WB
Enough is enough!
Khuzait can now steamroll the entire map again.
I can't speak for everyone, and my sample is barely 4 playthroughs - but in all of them the Khuzait either remained stable for the first couple of years or gained one-two castles. They captured Vostrum for a couple days, before it was retook - and all of this while I wasn't involved at all.
Still, the only solution to the Khuzait issue is a final one™
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
I can't speak for everyone, and my sample is barely 4 playthroughs - but in all of them the Khuzait either remained stable for the first couple of years or gained one-two castles. They captured Vostrum for a couple days, before it was retook - and all of this while I wasn't involved at all.
Still, the only solution to the Khuzait issue is a final one™
It isn't clear from the OP but he means tactical battles.
And I'm not sure who you're helping by comparing one broken overpowered part to another broken overpowered part of the game, as opposed to comparing it to all sources of damage in the game.
I don't think javelins are overpowered. They need the advantage to make up for stack sizes when compared to arrows.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
I don't think javelins are overpowered. They need the advantage to make up for stack sizes when compared to arrows.

That's the way I see it. They're a hybrid unit that is capable of 1 hit kills on weaker or fast moving enemies, but the additional spear gives them great value.

I think this thread comes down to tactics tho. Horse archers can be intimidating when you first confront them - especially when you're facing 40 or 50 in one party. But they're pretty frail once you figure out how to be aggressive towards them you can drop them pretty quick. You can even Rambo them into fleeing yourself if you get on their blind side and cut a swathe through them with a good axe or glaive. And once you drop them the Kuzaits don't have a lot else.
 

five bucks

Squire
I don't think javelins are overpowered. They need the advantage to make up for stack sizes when compared to arrows.
Again, your reference point shouldn't be 1 other thing which is way stronger than the rest of things in the game. If arrows and javelins were the only weapons in the game you'd have a point, but they aren't. Both arrows and javelins need to be knocked down a peg in damage output compared to melee weapons.

Sure javelin damage should be higher than arrows, but not at the expense of every other weapon in the game. It should take more than 2 javelins for a T5 troop to kill another T5 troop who is wearing high quality armor. Jereeds can basically do the same damage on a body hit as two-handed melee weapons, but from a distance. It's just stupid.

Nerfing arrow damage against armor significantly will be an indirect buff to javelins, which then makes it possible to nerf its damage as well without making it too weak relative to arrows.
 

murtega

Knight
I don't know what TW did to these horse lovers but something happened a few patches ago that they became miserably weak. They no more summon 1000+ armies, their parties barely exceed 70 soldiers per lord no matter the clan tier and they seldomly hire any minor clan when you even streamroll them. In my last 2 campaigns, we (aserai) simply crushed them with almost no resistance. My bet is on the patch that allowed villages to spawn high tier units but who knows, I'm just sure it wasn't intentional. I'm really not fond of them but sad to see Monchug is forced to make a living from roaming around Calradia chasing looters and winning tournaments if come by.
 
Jereeds can basically do the same damage on a body hit as two-handed melee weapons, but from a distance. It's just stupid.
The thing is the AI misses 7 times out of 10 when using ranged on horseback and then there's the fact that they only have 4-5 ammo so only 1 of those will probably hit
 

five bucks

Squire
The thing is the AI misses 7 times out of 10 when using ranged on horseback and then there's the fact that they only have 4-5 ammo so only 1 of those will probably hit
I dismount T5 Veteran Faris, tell them to hold fire with F4, and they land their shots almost perfectly at mid range to close range and reliably 2shot just about anything.
With that said, if accuracy is such a problem for making javelins do sensible damage, then just buff their accuracy a bit at the same time.
I have noticed that Sturgian Horse Raiders tend to repeatedly barely miss attempts at headshots with javelins. Seems like they consistently aim too high.
I don't know what TW did to these horse lovers but something happened a few patches ago that they became miserably weak. They no more summon 1000+ armies, their parties barely exceed 70 soldiers per lord no matter the clan tier and they seldomly hire any minor clan when you even streamroll them. In my last 2 campaigns, we (aserai) simply crushed them with almost no resistance. My bet is on the patch that allowed villages to spawn high tier units but who knows, I'm just sure it wasn't intentional. I'm really not fond of them but sad to see Monchug is forced to make a living from roaming around Calradia chasing looters and winning tournaments if come by.
In my current campaign on 1.6.5 I wouldn't call them miserably weak or super strong on the strategic level, but they are definitely super strong in tactical battles.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
Nerfing arrow damage against armor significantly will be an indirect buff to javelins, which then makes it possible to nerf its damage as well without making it too weak relative to arrows.
Even if every arrow only did 20 damage (and to be clear, there has been less than zero indication TW will nerf arrow damage) and javelins twice that, arrows would still be a better value, since you can carry almost ten times as many per stack. It would literally make them into a joke weapon like pugios; RP or once-off novelty, zero actual niche.
 

five bucks

Squire
Even if every arrow only did 20 damage (and to be clear, there has been less than zero indication TW will nerf arrow damage) and javelins twice that, arrows would still be a better value, since you can carry almost ten times as many per stack. It would literally make them into a joke weapon like pugios; RP or once-off novelty, zero actual niche.
If both arrows and javelins had their damage reduced against armor, but arrow damage was reduced more, and also javelins got a bit more shield damage (without perks), you'd find the following situation.

Arrows:
+++ Significantly longer effective range
+++ Two slots for bow+arrow can give you ~28 ammunition. Two slots for javelin+javelin can give you ~8 ammo. Three slots for bow+arrow+arrow = ~56 ammo. Three slots for javelin+javelin+javelin = ~12 ammo.
-- Significantly less damage per hit, e.g. 10 hits for a T5 archer to kill a T5 shieldless, armored troop
-- Poor damage against shields, almost totally countered by them
- Cannot be used as a melee weapon
- Takes up two weapon slots, so it cannot be used alongside two melee weapons and a shield

Javelins:
+ Only takes up one weapon slot, as opposed to bow+arrow which takes up two spots minimum. This means it is always useful to any troop or player who has two melee weapons plus a shield, and has no room to carry a bow and its arrows.
+ Can be used as a melee weapon
++ Significantly more damage per hit, e.g. 3 hits for a T5 javelineer to kill a T5 shieldless, armored troop
++ Bonus damage against shields, can render them useless in a few hits
--- A bow+arrow slot gets significantly more ammo as mentioned above.
--- Significantly shorter effective range

Ammo is a big disadvantage and so is range, but there's plenty of small or medium advantages that make javelins with more realistic damage still worth picking or situationally useful.
Tweaks to javelin accuracy, range, stack size etc., can also be done as needed.
 
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