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Khuzait bankruptcy problem

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murtega

Knight
This has happened in 5 different campaigns in a row so I'm convinced that it's not coincidence but rather intended.
Since a few updates ago, Khuzaits started to go bankrupt after a few in game years. Their parties contain just 40-50 soldiers, all high tier, their garrisons almost completely emptied (30-40 men in castles, 60-70 in cities) and they can't even field sizeable armies to conquer anywhere or put a challenge while being conquered. They were quite irritating to fight against before but now they're ridiculously weak that it's not even fun.
My guess is either the cultural bonus change or villages spawning high tier and noble recruits completely screwed up their economy but might be something else. Whatever it is, Taleworlds please fix this.
 

Emperor1997

Squire
This has happened in 5 different campaigns in a row so I'm convinced that it's not coincidence but rather intended.
Since a few updates ago, Khuzaits started to go bankrupt after a few in game years. Their parties contain just 40-50 soldiers, all high tier, their garrisons almost completely emptied (30-40 men in castles, 60-70 in cities) and they can't even field sizeable armies to conquer anywhere or put a challenge while being conquered. They were quite irritating to fight against before but now they're ridiculously weak that it's not even fun.
My guess is either the cultural bonus change or villages spawning high tier and noble recruits completely screwed up their economy but might be something else. Whatever it is, Taleworlds please fix this.
Their culture malus decrease tax income by 25%
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Repeat...
 

murtega

Knight
Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Repeat...
If only causing them to collapse on their own was a proper way of making them weaker...
 

AngryPanCake

Regular
Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too strong"
TW: *nerfs Kuzaits*

Players: "Kuzaits too weak"
TW: *Strengthens Kuzaits*

Repeat...

Bro we get it, you're smart and all...

PS: good one though!
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Sounds like a brilliant new feature to me! I took over the khuzait area first in my recent game so I didn't see them have this problem. The Khuzait vassals I have don't seem to be having problems though, which they would if it were due the to the culture bonus. In fact the khuzait clans are very aggressive and always trying to vote themselves more fiefs. Now I admit, I don't examine their parties or finances, they could in fact be under-manned, but as long as they're making armies and launching sieges it's good enough.

As far as other AI factions, everyone always has too much in their garrison and too many troops IMO. Of course part of it is they accumulate passive income and influence while being held prisoner, then when released, they have plenty of funds and influence to make armies right away. To me it just seems there's very little penalty to the AI factions and only actually holding them all prisoner (or the axe) and taking every fief from them yields a noticeable result. I think there should be bit more blow back for having 90-100% of your faction in prison for a year or several..... I mean what does the world need them for if they can be completely out of the picture so long and everything fine in all the towns?

Also AFAIK, garrison troops won't desert if they don't get their pay, so the AI having temporary money woopsies doesn't even effect the AI that much. If you've got them all prisoner and all thier villages are raided and they ran out of money sometimes because fat garrisons.... tah duh nothing happens!
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
Overall it seems to me in my current 1.70 play that Khuzait is way to weak.

In part I think its due to several things
1. they are generally poor like Sturgia was/is
2. Khuzait lands is littered with too fast bandits, then the peasents need to have improved speed in their lands so they wont be captured all the time.
3. Same difference as the horde of bandits are too fast for the traders aswell, they seem to get taken all the time.
4. Said bandits have lairs - they tank the security etc.

In my play now Khuzait have been eaten up by Northern Empire.
Although due to the mentioned banditlairs that dont get cleared out - the cities they have taken rebel quite frequently.

Most of the starting clans of Khuzait have left them now.

I dont think the core issue is the Khuzait faction on its own, but the steppebandits just being to hard on their already weak finances.

I've traded with a few of them when I notice how bad shape they where in, and several of them had 0 denars..(Clan leaders)

Constantly Khuzait was getting attacked by Northern, Southern and to some degree Aserai, all 3 at once, and no peace.

Again I'm still leaning towards that the bandit cause to much of a problem for the Khuzait, in other lands the peasents can outrun them most of the time, traders have no issues.

I see all the time from Khuzait "named lord have been captued by bandits"..

The whole mechanics of the bandits is abit in need of tweaking/improvment/expansion, since regardless of what the patch notes and devs have said, I've yet to see any lairs been removed besides me.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
I'm looking forward to seeing hwo poor and broken they end up late game! I started my feifing on the other end of the world, I did of course rough the khuzait up a bit as rank 1 merc to gather a pack of KG, but eventually they will likely be the final opponent for me.
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
I'm looking forward to seeing hwo poor and broken they end up late game! I started my feifing on the other end of the world, I did of course rough the khuzait up a bit as rank 1 merc to gather a pack of KG, but eventually they will likely be the final opponent for me.
In my play which is day 1107 they hold only
Chaikand - Oodok - Tepes & Simira castle.
Note my faction havent actually been at war with them AT ALL.
So its not player snowballing them.

But its mostly been NE, and 1 or 2 other factions ganking them.

They have 4 in total clans left and 1 of them is lead by Monchug.

So if the devs cant see how "unfair" the economics is in the game and how it ruins the "balance".
Mostly though its been cause how easy its been for the NE to capture the towns from Khuzait, due to low loyalty/security.
Once the captured town rebelled they may go for peace, then some days after war again.

Naturally if the player had been part of Khuzait, they would have destroyed those banditlairs tanking the security and then also loyalty.
But left to their own devices they are too weak, I know I know 1 year ago I was *****ing about how op they where.
Now that they are balanced in terms of the armypower etc more, there is the severe issue of imbalance of wealth.
And should the "rich factions" loose some ground - they hire mercs all the time.

While it may be "historical" correct in terms of the inspiration behind the Khuzait to some degree, it dont make for good/balanced gameplay.
 

Antaeus

Sergeant at Arms
I don't know how bad they are in my current playthrough. I started my kingdom there. They only have one city left, which I have kept in place for nostalgia. A Kuzait zoo... so to speak.

But they seemed more than capable of funding armies approaching 2000 while they had cities. Once they started losing fiefs their lords jumped ship.
 

MostBlunted

Sergeant Knight
Khuzait weak?

577hz5.png

Haven´t noticed it yet in my 1.7.0 campaign though.
 
For me it's neat, because I like them being poor, as I would anticipate nomads to be. But I can see that it can be annoying if they will collapse on their own in several years
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
AI clans in general don’t have enough income
This is kind of true, unless they are Empire factions.
Those lords are generally quite loaded.

Also some other factions if they are winning alot of battles. (Vlandia typically/Aserai to some degree)

However some factions start out "too poor" like Khuzait(Again I was one of those who felt they where op)(but that was other reasons).
Now soon as they get defeated a few times, they dont have the funds to fill up their ranks enough it seems.

+ the issue of loosing land due to security related to the banditlairs + merchants not reaching destination.

The empire cities start with often 5-7k population, while the others start with 3k.
The difference in income between those 2 is quite significant.
Then add in the villages attached where its 200-400 vs 600+ (which beside the income, also provide more food etc etc).

So yah its an issue that they are so poor they cant even muster enough full strength parties to form armies..
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
For me it's neat, because I like them being poor, as I would anticipate nomads to be. But I can see that it can be annoying if they will collapse on their own in several years
Thats it though, I to agree that its "neat" in a sense that they are poor, same for Sturgia and Battania kind of.
However when it becomes a balance issue..
And in the case of the Khuzait atleast so much that they are removed from the map in than 10-15 yrs by other AI more or less(in my play the faction I've with havent been at war with them at all) yet they have 2 cities + 2 castles left, all the rest is gone.

4 clans left.(Including starting ruleing faction).

They where weak in 1.65 beta for me, but not this weak.

I've started a new play, just to see if it repeats, and it do already look like it.

So I wonder do they playtest the game with all factions before they let it out, like for decades.
To see how it unfolds without player interference.

I'm curious is some of the more savy ppl could do a time-loop to see if its just my experience of that there is somethign to it.
Given that my data is abit limited with being 1 person only played a few "long" games.
But this thread sort of indicate that there is other who experience similar outcome.
 

Zorion_no

Veteran
So I think it may not directly only be that the Khuzait on their own is weak economic and struggle with steppebandits(nerf the speed of those or something something) and that lairs never go away unless a player do something about them - tanking security.

But atm I think there is more the issue of the Northern Empire perhaps that is too strong.
So atm, after they had beaten Khuzait abit, but not really taken land.

Northern Empire is atm about 8k strength with all their merc armies.
However my faction is 7k and we also have some mercs.

But my issue is that NE is at war with us + Khuzait (3k) and at war with WE 7,7k..

And I've not "taken command" as in lead armies, just let the ai do its bit, since typically Garios and his friends do very well in wars.
No not at all.. I see our armies get demolished, I see Khuzait get taken by bandits lol, I see WE get demolished.

Merc clans as pointed out and it finally seems that the devs are gettting their eyes open to it, is "too powerful" in a sense or how it tips the favors in "less than ideal" as in the powerful kingdomes hire them instead of going for peace, and the weak never or rarely hire them.(I'll say this that we've hired and hire more mercs in my faction that I've ever seen so we are on par that way, but Khuzait havent had many if any at all).

The ai is also abit stupid in forming armies.

I think this is part of the issue, that the NE is so rich vs other factions, maybe even vs WE even, so I see their lords with 100-150 parties all the time.
While Khuzait parties rarely go over 80(Monchug with his 40..)

I'm just curious if others see similar patterns or its just "how I play" and how it seems to unfold each time.

I think next play I'll go Khuzait to give'em a fair shot.
Read most of their lands is actually taken by SE in this game and Aserai.
NE just beatem down, then the others declared war and grabbed what they could.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
SO guys with weak/poor Khuzaits: if you siege Chakaind and sit there building all the siege gear and starving them, how many armies show up to fight you? 1? None? 4 or 5 in a row? I ask because to me the concept of poor AI doesn't matter if they still make endless armies. I haven't fought the khuzait since 1.6.4/5 but then they were capable of sending consecutive armies.
 

murtega

Knight
SO guys with weak/poor Khuzaits: if you siege Chakaind and sit there building all the siege gear and starving them, how many armies show up to fight you? 1? None? 4 or 5 in a row? I ask because to me the concept of poor AI doesn't matter if they still make endless armies. I haven't fought the khuzait since 1.6.4/5 but then they were capable of sending consecutive armies.
They form two armies, around 500-600 troops when war starts and can form no other up to even half of that during the entire war, until we decide to make peace. And after two, three wars they're completely gone.
 
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