Khergit Strategy

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AI v AI the Khergits are fierce, but in actual battle they're merely annoying...
Well atleast if ye have any heavy cavalry about... Some strange maths going on behind the scenes in nonplayed battles...  :???:
When I go Nord or Rhod I always drag around a bunch of Merc Cav even if they're expensive, and now after the upgrade they got in the patch they're awesomesauce  :eek:
Without those tho I'd find Khergs a tad bothersome as Infantry... Damn mosquito's...
 
Lord Brutus said:
manekemaan said:
does anyone have an idea why they changed the khergit tactic in warband? (compared to vanilla)
Khergits had a tactic in M&B? They seem more menacing in Warband to me, not that they have a tactic in WB, just that they seem less like a nuisance and more like an actual faction. Maybe an upgrade from mosquito to hornet.

In vanilla the initial Khergit wave would deploy in a line and try to outflank the opposing force before attacking. In Warband, they seem to have returned to the frontal charge tactic, which does make their horse archers much less effective.

That said, I love using Khergits. All my fiefs are in former Khergit territory so the longer any war drags on the more Khergit-heavy my army becomes (faster to levy the local tribesmen than go all the way back to civilized lands). And as I always have my cavalry "follow me" and outflank the enemy line before charging, my own horse archers do a lot more horse archering than the AI ones manage.
 
Maybe I missed the Khergit flanking manuever, but since I'm never totally without heavy cavalry maybe it just didn't matter what they were doing. Individually, only the lancers are a pain to run down. The archers don't seem to have horses fast enough to stay away from me and mine, but maybe that's a false impression.
 
I've always found it to be reversed, VHA usually have Coursers I do believe. Sometimes Lancers will have Coursers too but now they mainly have those Sarranid Warhorses or w/e.
 
I don't think the horses make much difference to the Khergits - the coursers just mean they die quicker and whether they have steppe chargers or not - lancers are not knights.

Until there is an 'avoid melee' command option the Khergits will remain second rate unless your prepared to babysit. I give real credence to Xts strategy of encouraging your vhas to use missiles and then leading the lancers in strikes on selected targets.  But paradox just haven't given the khergits that fundamental ability to skirmish away from trouble and stay mobile.
 
Yes, the "avoid melee" command would be perfect.
It would make these warriors even more deadly on the battlefield.

I've read somewhere in the mod section of a mate who managed to get the Kerghits completely avoid melee until they have shot all of their arrows. This might not be perfect, but it's a VERY good start. :cool:
 
Remedius said:
Until there is an 'avoid melee' command option the Khergits will remain second rate unless your prepared to babysit.
XT_Billy said:
Yes, the "avoid melee" command would be perfect.
It would make these warriors even more deadly on the battlefield.

I've read somewhere in the mod section of a mate who managed to get the Kerghits completely avoid melee until they have shot all of their arrows. This might not be perfect, but it's a VERY good start. :cool:


Horse archers kind of do this if you are sure to put them in a separate division from lancers/other cav so your orders to your heavy cavalry don't go to the Horse Archers, too.

There are already two improvements available: 1) a script to force horse archers to start with their bows when spawned (pairing this with keeping them separate from heavy cav works fairly well) or 2) the "skirmish" order script I've written (though it admittedly works a bit better for foot archers skirmishing than horse archers).
 
Caba`drin said:
Remedius said:
Until there is an 'avoid melee' command option the Khergits will remain second rate unless your prepared to babysit.
XT_Billy said:
Yes, the "avoid melee" command would be perfect.
It would make these warriors even more deadly on the battlefield.

I've read somewhere in the mod section of a mate who managed to get the Kerghits completely avoid melee until they have shot all of their arrows. This might not be perfect, but it's a VERY good start. :cool:


Horse archers kind of do this if you are sure to put them in a separate division from lancers/other cav so your orders to your heavy cavalry don't go to the Horse Archers, too.

There are already two improvements available: 1) a script to force horse archers to start with their bows when spawned (pairing this with keeping them separate from heavy cav works fairly well) or 2) the "skirmish" order script I've written (though it admittedly works a bit better for foot archers skirmishing than horse archers).
Well, you have my respect Sir Knight! :grin:
I hadn't seen your work on this. I've seen something like this implemented in a mod which... ehmmm... I don't remember.
I'll test this thoroughly and report after the weekend.
Thanks for your work and your posting here. :smile:

Is Remedius reading this? :grin:
 
Caba 'drin - big thanks and admiration - this could be what the game and the Khergits have needed all along!

I can't wait for Xt s report.  I admire your ability to write such code and find it frustrating that it takes a fan to complete a job left by the programmers. Is it easy to try these mods for myself?

Xt - can't wait to see how it turns out
 
Remedius said:
Is it easy to try these mods for myself?

If you've never messed with the Module System before, it does take some time to figure out. To try out and piece together code written by others, it is really a complicated case of Copy-Paste that eventually becomes more straight forward with familiarity with the system. There are some tutorials to help you get acquainted, such as Getting Started...but I'd be more than happy to help if you get stuck via PMs or the like.
 
I haven't attempted modding vha for skirmish and I don't know if I will but I persevere with vanilla -

I recently went to my devoted Khergit villages near Halmar and put a vha army together - the idea is that my knights are there for the main job but I ride a courser directing the vha - I usually ride to the back of the main enemy blob and help the vha pepper the enemy in their unshielded areas. Trouble being that a lot of them simply don't use their bows at all. I had one guy who kept straying in front of me as I was about to shoot who spent the whole battle with a club or something in his hand! What is more after about three largish battles the vhas had racked up about three kills between them! Admittedly I only had abt ten and everyone knows how knights destroy all in their path but three in three battles?

I then fought the next battle by holding everyone in position and leading just the vha.  We closed with the enemy and held in an attempt to lay withering fire in the advancing enemy. Trying to maximise fire I (which again was meagre) I left skirmish to the last moment where I discovered some of the vha were still shuffling around to get position and I lost a couple simply cos they got caught in melee'. Despite this they killed a few this time and that was pleasing but it wasn't long before we were right up to the hcav line and I had to release my companions.

I have yet to get them to hold until range and then release them - this will be the next test but I suspect if they circle they will simply eventually crash into some enemy element and die.
 
I'm not sure if this is a reoccurring thing, but I have noticed that when I tell foot archers to "follow me" their rate of fire slows dramatically even if I'm standing still, and some of them even equip melee weapons. They return to normal if told to charge or hold position.  Have you tried leading your VHAs to the back and then setting them to hold position within range?
 
Well, i've "modded" the archers with Caba'drin's script.
Their behaviour is a little "strange".
I played the game only Friday evening, I need much more time to test them in battle.

They seem to work right trying to keep their distance, but i've noticed that their arrow shooting is much less now.
They do try to evade the enemy cavalry that's chasing them, most of the time succeeding, but they also seem to run away without shooting arrows. Against only infantry they are killers, but so they were if used like I suggested in the first page.

I've created a cheated character with tons of strenth and ironflesh in order to watch them perform without worrying of the enemies always chasing me. I also cheat by upgrading them directly from recruits to HA/VHA.

I will test them again and report back.
 
Khergits is horse based army, so i think we need to have bigger and flatter battlefield, and since they can only shoot arrow on the left side, we need to plan flanking rout for them. Like when the enemy turn to charge the horse archer, the lancer will charge. too bad it's hard to order the lancer to charge at the right moment while leading the horse archer your self.
 
lord_Nelson said:
Khergits is horse based army, so i think we need to have bigger and flatter battlefield, and since they can only shoot arrow on the left side, we need to plan flanking rout for them. Like when the enemy turn to charge the horse archer, the lancer will charge. too bad it's hard to order the lancer to charge at the right moment while leading the horse archer your self.

I might have a solution for you.

First, make the horse archers a group.
Second, make the lancers a separate group.

I almost never release my small number of lancers from the duty of following/escorting me except when we have complete dominance on the battlefield.

When the battle starts, tell everyone to follow you. Find the enemy.
Tell the horse archers to hold position before they are within bow range.
Position yourself and your bodyguards slightly behind them.
When all the HA's start shooting, tell them to charge.
Since they are already shooting, they flank to the right, performing their magic.
This is the time when the player and it's lancer team get to business. :twisted:

You can then chase the scattered enemy cavalry, killing them at your leisure (since they're pissed off with the HA), attack the disorganised infantry with hit and run (since their battle line formation is ruined) or decimate the (already occupied with your HA) archers/crossbowmen. Basically, eliminate the biggest threat.

Everything depends on the composition of the enemy army, the terrain and many other factors.
Each battlefield is unique so one tactic that works now may need a little change to work again.

It's a lot easier when fighting, let's say a knight heavy army. They are most easy to defeat. No joking.
They rush to kill your HAs, and while they're wounding them with arrows they get them to chase them, unsuccessfully, because they're much faster than the knights. You just follow with your bodyguard eliminating everyone that's left behind with ease. And if you miss someone, your lancer bodyguard take care of him. :mrgreen:

This way, you get a lot of "easy" kills, earning experience yourself and your army.

A combined enemy needs a little more "strategy".
You have your HAs removing the threat of cavalry (chasing them) which will be taken care after. The enemy archers always prefer to shoot at you instead of your troops. Use this to your advantage, telling your lancers to move somewhere near them drawing their fire without casualties since they move, and not straight at them. Charge yourself and kill 2-3 archers while your lancers are circling. The whole group of archers will start shooting at you. As you circle around them, tell your lancers to follow you and when they're close to the enemy archers charge them and watch how easily they die. You may charge into the fray yourself too.

Then you can concentrate on the MUCH weaker cavalry with the lancers following you and mopping up whoever escapes your warspear. The remaining infantry usually is scattered, making them easy prey for the left over arrows of your HAs and the (always following you) lancer bodyguard.

This is just a little example of the real power the Khergits have, if used right.
A player which is used to have an army of knights, orders charge and watches the slaughter (when they're not stacked together unable to move :lol:) may find the Khergits weak, but they're not.

Hell, I definitely like them, I could write pages and pages talking about them. :smile:
Please forgive any errors, English is not my native language.
 
Xt - man - sounds too good to be true - so the vha start firing and then you tell em to charge and they flank right? Wicked!

Do they hit thier targets? Mine don't seem to - please read above posts. Cos if what you say is true then I will keep my vha as a permanent element in my army.
 
@XT:
First, your English is excellent.

Second, your above post is a very well thought out strategy.

Third, in regard to my skirmish script--yes, the horse archers will not fire when running away (they are effectively routing for a short period) which make it less than ideal. I've not found a solution for that yet...though it is why I noted that the script works much better with foot archers than horse archers. I appreciate you giving it a try and reporting your experience, though.

XT_Billy said:
Tell the horse archers to hold position before they are within bow range.
Position yourself and your bodyguards slightly behind them.
When all the HA's start shooting, tell them to charge.
Since they are already shooting, they flank to the right, performing their magic.

This can be accomplished without the micromanagement with the first "fix" I suggested in my post above: a script that forces horse archers to begin with their bows equipped rather than their light lance or scimitar side-arm. Effectively what your sequence above does is force this swap to bows...scripting it takes away the hastle...and then with their bows equipped they perform fairly well.

 
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