Just another thread about OP Archers.

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Mostly because you fight battles, get infantry and cadvalry killed

Wow, sounds like maybe infantry and Cavalry need some improvements.

Are you aware that my complain is about how easy I can defeat AI using my archers, and it is not related to I cannot beat the AI, right?

You really don't get that complaining about something you're choosing to do on purpose is silly?
Now, if you complained about your infantry and cav dying to easily in battle, that would come across as a more reasonable concern.

 

[Dabos37]

Wow, sounds like maybe infantry and Cavalry need some improvements.


You really don't get that complaining about something you're choosing to do on purpose is silly?
Now, if you complained about your infantry and cav dying to easily in battle, that would come across as a more reasonable concern.

Ok, so I assume that complaining about getting tons of money for using smithing is also silly, right? I should only stop using everything and problem solved, right? What I really find silly is your argument.

 

[Apocal]

Are you aware that my complain is about how easy I can defeat AI using my archers, and it is not related to I cannot beat the AI, right?

You didn't do this -- and haven't, as far as I've seen -- but sometimes posters create "OP pls nerf" threads because they are legitimately unaware of some aspect of the game. It probably seems a bit quaint now, but there were people complaining that Cataphracts and Banner Knights were impossible to resist when the game was new.

But this thread isn't that. I don't think anyone can read the thread, in whole or in part, and come away with the impression that you don't know what you're doing.

edit: you should consider packaging your changes into a mod and putting it up on Nexus. That's one way to get more feedback.

Now, if you complained about your infantry and cav dying to easily in battle, that would come across as a more reasonable concern.

Those issues are inseparable. That which makes infantry and cavalry vulnerable also enhances the effectiveness of archers. Approaching the problem from either direction (archers OP/armor doesn't protect) will get you to the same place in terms of solutions. They all work, but what Dabos has found is one of the cleanier methods that shouldn't impact other areas of the game anywhere near as much as other solutions. For example, Armor Does Something making tournaments take forever because high armor values + crap weapons means you spend minutes whaling on a guy before he drops.

 

[Dabos37]

Seriously stop trying to make this personal. Archers being killing machines able te get hundred of kills in seconds while completely avoiding melee most of the time has no anything to do with if I know or not what I am doing. And the problem is not only if I spam archers, even getting 30% archers in my army, they are killing everything too fast.

And this is not about pressing f4 or letting my archers at home (disagree with this "tip"), it is about I want to enjoy about everything aspect of the game and all things feel balanced and do not make the game feels excessively easy and not challenging just for using them. Playing currently with archers feels like cheating the game (same than using smithing). These things make the game 0 challenging.

EDIT: sorry if I sound rude, it is not my intention.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Approaching the problem from either direction (archers OP/armor doesn't protect) will get you to the same place in terms of solutions.

I disagree because nerfing archers could easily leave us with only impotent units that get killed by recruits and peasants throwing stones because it's not addressing the real issues in the poor performance of those units. I firmly believe archers should massacre the hoards of recruits and low tier troops the AI fields easily, but that high tier units should last much longer in fights, performance much better then lower tiers and be much harder to take down, even for the human player.

 

[Dabos37]

You didn't do this -- and haven't, as far as I've seen -- but sometimes posters create "OP pls nerf" threads because they are legitimately unaware of some aspect of the game. It probably seems a bit quaint now, but there were people complaining that Cataphracts and Banner Knights were impossible to resist when the game was new.

But this thread isn't that. I don't think anyone can read the thread, in whole or in part, and come away with the impression that you don't know what you're doing.

edit: you should consider packaging your changes into a mod and putting it up on Nexus. That's one way to get more feedback.



Those issues are inseparable. That which makes infantry and cavalry vulnerable also enhances the effectiveness of archers. Approaching the problem from either direction (archers OP/armor doesn't protect) will get you to the same place in terms of solutions. They all work, but what Dabos has found is one of the cleanier methods that shouldn't impact other areas of the game anywhere near as much as other solutions. For example, Armor Does Something making tournaments take forever because high armor values + crap weapons means you spend minutes whaling on a guy before he drops.

BTW, can you please elaborate about why "I do not know what I am doing"? I really do not get why complaining about how OP are Archers against the AI (when I am using them) could give the impression that I do not know what I am doing. Am I doing something wrong and for this reason my archers are so OP?. Sorry but I really do not understand the whole point about how bad player I am, and for this reason my archers are OP. This even sounds absurd. Maybe it is something related to my english is not great and I am not being able to transmit the main point here, but my biggest concern is the Archers make battles too easy and I do not even need to intect in battles to win (even when I am outnumbered and strenght power shows that I should lose).

The changes I am using in my "mod" are just related to make the AI block projectiles more effectively, and reduce all bows/crossbows damage (-20% or so). Plus nerf some archers one handed skill. Funny thing is that even with these nerfs, archers are still the most effetive units in almost every battle. After testing some things modding the game, I have come to the conclusion that the problem is not archers' accurary, but dps. Damage or realoading speed is probably the best way to nerf them. Nerfing accuracy does not really make them much worse taking into account that they are still able to hit someone when enemy approach in mass, plus tournaments got pretty silly where nobody was able to hit anyone uning bows/crossbows.

I am not uploading my "mod" to nexus because it is not really a mod and I have just replaced the values in my game files. I really "do not know what I am doing" when we talk about modding the game .

 

[Apocal]

Sorry but I really do not understand the whole point about how bad player I am, and for this reason my archers are OP.

I said you weren't doing that. Your posts are fine and it is clear you know what you are doing.

The changes I am using in my "mod" are just related to make the AI block projectiles more effectively, and reduce all bows damage (-20% or so). Plus nerf some archers one handed skill. Funny thing is that even with these nerfs, archers are still the most effetive units in almost every battle. After testing some things modding the game, I have come to the conclusion that the problem is not archers' accurary, but dps. Damage or realoading speed is probably the best way to nerf them. Nerfing accuracy does not really make them much worse taking into account that they are still able to hit someone when enemy approach in mass, plus tournaments got pretty silly where nobody was able to hit anyone uning bows/crossbows.

Yeah, that was my opinion after testing the nerfed accuracy.

 

[Maximum997]

Am I doing something wrong and for this reason my archers are so OP?

Yes! Gitgud and archers will become weaker XD

 

[Dabos37]

I said you weren't doing that. Your posts are fine and it is clear you know what you are doing.

Sorry for that, I have missunderstood you.

Yes! Gitgud and archers will become weaker XD

hahaha, yes, this is what i was thinking when read in wrong way what Apocal said.

 

[hruza]

You absolutely can, and even if you don't with a simple line, separating your archers in 2 groups will lead to a V formation, with half the archers hitting the flank/back of the enemy while they try to engage your other archers (which you can pull back). This tactic only gets some resistance against aserai, with their fast cavalry and single palace guards who hit your lines killing 12 troops.

Your first sentence contradicts the second. Either you can always get away with enemy not engaging your archers or Aseray can hit your lines. It can't be both.

What the hell do you mean by there's no such army as full tier 3 against AI? Of course there is. I'm talking about me building that army, not the AI.

And I am talking about AI newer building tier 3 army or higher. Saying that player archers are OP is strawman. Everything player is.

Have you ever played khuzait at all? Tier 3 horse archers do some retarded damage and are very easy to amass, unlike leveling up sturgian woodsmen. Also, no, they are not hard countered by javelin cav.

Oh yes they are, I have been countering your horse archers with Sturgian raiders all the time. Which again proves me right and you wrong. Archers are not OP. PI (player intelligence) is.

 

[hruza]

1-Make shield wall an actual wall. Most of the time when i command "shield wall", they would rise their shields and that's it, sometimes they even spread out dunno why.

That happens if you have cavalry grouped with your infantry. Like AI lord on horse. Make then dismount and it should fix the problem.

 

[Kenzo-0-]

Your first sentence contradicts the second. Either you can always get away with enemy not engaging your archers or Aseray can hit your lines. It can't be both.



And I am talking about AI newer building tier 3 army or higher. Saying that player archers are OP is strawman. Everything player is.



Oh yes they are, I have been countering your horse archers with Sturgian raiders all the time. Which again proves me right and you wrong. Archers are not OP. PI (player intelligence) is.

Altough i partially agree you on that, there is only so much you can do with infantary in terms of outplaying your opponent. I think archers are kinda op tools that you can use to crush the ai, i see no reason why a little nerf would hurt. I'm not saying archers should be dumped. No matter how clever you are on positioning your cav, u never get that cav charge and wipe out the enemy troops as clean as a cav unit suppose to do, cav is not op whereas archers are.
Btw ty for that tip on how to fix my shield wall

 

[hruza]

Seriously stop trying to make this personal. Archers being killing machines able te get hundred of kills in seconds

They can't do hundreds of kills in seconds. Trying to exaggerate won't make your arguments more convincing.

while completely avoiding melee

You mean that archers should not fire unless in melee? Avoiding melee is the whole point of any ranged weapon.

most of the time has no anything to do with if I know or not what I am doing. And the problem is not only if I spam archers, even getting 30% archers in my army, they are killing everything too fast.

Funny that "archers are OP" complain only comes from people who play 100% archer armies. It newer comes from people who face archers with cavalry or infantry. And you know why? Because archers suck when under AI command. What again shows that you're wrong and I am right. Archers are not OP, PI (player intelligence) is.

Make AI use shieldwal and stop suicide it's 4 skirmish cavalry at the beginning of the battle and players like you will run back here screaming that everything else is OP and their archer spam doesn't work anymore.

 

[hruza]

Altough i partially agree you on that, there is only so much you can do with infantary in terms of outplaying your opponent. I think archers are kinda op tools that you can use to crush the ai, i see no reason why a little nerf would hurt. I'm not saying archers should be dumped. No matter how clever you are on positioning your cav, u never get that cav charge and wipe out the enemy troops as clean as a cav unit suppose to do, cav is not op whereas archers are.
Btw ty for that tip on how to fix my shield wall

Archers can wipe enemy a, IF enemy are unshielded infantry with little to no protection and b, IF you can prevent enemy to close with your archers. As they should. That's exactly where archers are supposed to be good. And that's exactly what proponents of "archers OP" are complaining about. Which makes no sense. Archers SHOUL be able to shoot unshielded, unprotected infantry masses to bits.

Problem is not in archers, problem is that 90% of the AI armies are masses of unshielded infantry with little to no protection. In Warband archers were no worst then in Bannerlord. They had comparable stats, accuracy, rate of fire and damage per shot. The difference was that in Warband AI automatically put their shield up when under fire (plus lot of tier 1 infantry had a shield).

Do a small test. Attack forest bandit outpost. Take one infantryman with a shield. Order him to shield wall and walk him to the first group of bandits. Walk him all the way 2-3 meters from them and then let him stand there. Make sure he faces them properly. And then you'll see how "OP" archers really are.

Make AI use shieldwal (or make then engage shield automatically like in the Warband) ->> problem slowed.

(Now there is issue that top tier archers are too good in melee in my opinion, but that's separate issue more related to how AI combat works. You would expect soldier with a shield and 1H weapon to have advantage over soldier with no shield and 1H weapon. He doesn't in MB AI combat model)

 

[Gambles]

Archers are indeed an "I Win" button for players who choose to exploit them, same goes for smithing and money. What's odd is TW seem very focused on balancing things instead of adding stuff but haven't touched the two things that if you exploit make the game trivial.

 

[Maximum997]

Archers are indeed an "I Win" button for players who choose to exploit them, same goes for smithing and money. What's odd is TW seem very focused on balancing things instead of adding stuff but haven't touched the two things that if you exploit make the game trivial.

Yes. Lets nerf pottery again

 

[Dabos37]

They can't do hundreds of kills in seconds. Trying to exaggerate won't make your arguments more convincing.



You mean that archers should not fire unless in melee? Avoiding melee is the whole point of any ranged weapon.



Funny that "archers are OP" complain only comes from people who play 100% archer armies. It newer comes from people who face archers with cavalry or infantry. And you know why? Because archers suck when under AI command. What again shows that you're wrong and I am right. Archers are not OP, PI (player intelligence) is.

Make AI use shieldwal and stop suicide it's 4 skirmish cavalry at the beginning of the battle and players like you will run back here screaming that everything else is OP and their archer spam doesn't work anymore.

Literally hundreds of kills in some seconds:



I do not play 100% archer armies, I am just testing armies with dev console.

Archers just suck under AI command because AI does not use them correctly as you can check in my video (AI makes archers charge at the begin for some reason). If AI would only make them fire at max range without making them charge like idiots, so Archers would be also OP under AI command. The only funny thing here is how you are trying to defend something which is cleary broken. Archers are simply 3 times more effective to use than cavalry and infantry, which makes them OP. Archers are simply making battles not fun at all currently.

AI using shieldwall does not change much. AI armies have plenty of unshielded units (not necessarily recruits) which get literally killed in seconds. Here you have another video where AI uses shields and still gets wrecked. It is a bit better though:



concerning this:

" You mean that archers should not fire unless in melee? Avoiding melee is the whole point of any ranged weapon."

I mean that most of my current battles are decided before melee because archers wreck everything in literally seconds.

BTW, I also disagree with player inteligency is what makes archers OP. I can just start a battle without doing anything and archers would still wreck everything. Please just check my videos, it requieres 0 inteligency and I just moved them to a different position and used spread formation. If it is the intelligency you are talking about, then I do not even want to think about a guy who splits archers in groups and actually uses good strategies.

 

[Maximum997]

The only funny thing here is how you are trying to defend something which is cleary broken.

He is just special. He told that Sturgia is super strong when even devs talked about Sturgia problems.

 

[hruza]

He is just special. He told that Sturgia is super strong when even devs talked about Sturgia problems.

Unless you can provide quote of me saying that "Sturgia is super strong", you're a liar. Waiting for the quote...

 

[KSHMR]

to all the people whining about archers OP: git gud or git rekt