Just another thread about OP Archers.

[mylittletantan]

I don't know. We have a few modders here though. Hopefully they won't get spicy if I tag them.
@mylittletantan

No problem.

Do you know if there is a way to reduce base accuracy for all archers?

Easiest way would be to just reduce accuracy of all bows in spitems.

Otherwise you can use dnSpy or something like it to edit the dlls/make a mod.

To reduce Ai accuracy you can edit the method SetAiReleatedProperties (either directly edit the dll or use harmony to add a postfix to the method) in the class AgentStatCalculateModel in Taleworlds.MountAndBlade.dll. The last properties AiRanger(Lead/Vertical/Horizontal)Error probably directly impact Ai accuracy so just reducing/increasing them should work.

Or to reduce everyone's(including player's) accuracy you can modify the method UpdateHumanStats (either directly edit the dll or use harmony to add a postfix to the method) in the class SandboxAgentStatCalculateModel in SandBox.dll. Reduce/increase all the accuracy related properties in agentDrivenProperties.

 

[Dabos37]

@mylittletantan

Thank you very much for this! I have changed the values in Taleworlds.MountAndBlade.dll and now I can notice the difference:

Vanilla:



Modded (I have made archers too innacutare, it has been just for testing):




Do you know where could I change the AI for units blocking projectiles more effectively in line formation (without using shield wall). That would be great. Thanks again for the help and sorry for asking so many questions.

(I would also love to find a way to change the formation AI to avoid the AI sending its archers in first line without shooting like idiots, but it is probably much more complicated to do)

 

[Dabos37]

Ok I have found this in the same ddl file and in same class ( AgentStatCalculateModel ):

agentDrivenProperties.AiRaiseShieldDelayTimeBase = -0.75f + 0.5f * num;

Changed for this:

agentDrivenProperties.AiRaiseShieldDelayTimeBase = 2f + 0.5f * num;


The result:




As you can see, units are now able to block proyectiles pretty well even if not in shield wall formation. Not sure why someone thought that making the AI dumb at blocking projectiles is a good idea.

I really do not have any idea about coing and all the consequences of this change, but it works for the moment and everything looks ok xD.

 

[Thistle]

Very OP, I agree

 

[mylittletantan]

As you can see, units are now able to block proyectiles pretty well even if not in shield wall formation. Not sure why someone thought that making the AI dumb at blocking projectiles is a good idea.

I really do not have any idea about coing and all the consequences of this change, but it works for the moment and everything looks ok xD.

I would assume that property is used for both melee and ranged attacks, have you tried fighting 1v1 against ai with high/low skill shielded units?

 

[Dabos37]

And here you have an actual battle with the mod *archers accuracy untouched in this mod, just shield parameter modified(>

I would assume that property is used for both melee and ranged attacks, have you tried fighting 1v1 against ai with high/low skill shielded units?

Yes, everything looks ok for the moment, melee fight is exactly the same as before:



@mylittletantan again, thank you very much for the help!

 

[Captain_Octavius]

agentDrivenProperties.AiRaiseShieldDelayTimeBase = -0.75f + 0.5f * num;

Changed for this:

agentDrivenProperties.AiRaiseShieldDelayTimeBase = 2f + 0.5f * num;

Great find! It's kinda odd because you'd think your change would actually increase the delay, but your video shows otherwise.

 

[Dabos37]

Great find! It's kinda odd because you'd think your change would actually increase the delay, but your video shows otherwise.

The thing is that I started checking this parameter which makes more sense to be related to AI using shields to block projectiles:

agentDrivenProperties.AiUseShieldAgainstEnemyMissileProbability = 0.1f + num * 0.6f + num3 * 0.2f;

I have even changed this line to:

agentDrivenProperties.AiUseShieldAgainstEnemyMissileProbability = 200f + num * 200f + num3 * 200f;
(yes, I have no idea about what I am doing xD)

But nothing did happen.

And yes, I also thought that I should decrese the AiRaiseShieldDelayTimeBase value rather than increase it, I just tried to increase as last resort. Not sure if it is something related to I really do not understantcode and it works as it should or there is a bug or something else.

 

[Marajah]

They don't. High tier units outperform low tier units. Advantage of archers is that they can fight at range without getting in to contact with enemy melee units. As they should. Therefore in some situations player can get away without sustaining any casualties.

Well, how is killing everything sustaining less, if any casualties not outperforming?
A tier 3 imperial archers army will wreck anything in sp. You may argue they might get rolled on the ground by a full tier 5 equivalent, but there is no such army against the AI. Tier 3 khuzait horse archers are just godly, though. Uncontested wrecking ball of the game (but yeah, you gotta cheese sieges. Still, the option is there to win the game with them)

 

[Marajah]

@mylittletantan

Thank you very much for this! I have changed the values in Taleworlds.MountAndBlade.dll and now I can notice the difference:

Vanilla:



Modded (I have made archers too innacutare, it has been just for testing):




Do you know where could I change the AI for units blocking projectiles more effectively in line formation (without using shield wall). That would be great. Thanks again for the help and sorry for asking so many questions.

(I would also love to find a way to change the formation AI to avoid the AI sending its archers in first line without shooting like idiots, but it is probably much more complicated to do)

This looks nicely balanced to me
Gotta test it in other scenarios to check if it won't break or cripple other archers completely, but it's promising. They are still strong, but those are top tier and at least there's been a melee

 

[Dabos37]

This looks nicely balanced to me
Gotta test it in other scenarios to check if it won't break or cripple other archers completely, but it's promising. They are still strong, but those are top tier and at least there's been a melee

I am currently playing a campaign where infantry units actually use their shields to block projectiles, plus I have slightly nerf archers accuracy, also a nerf 20% damage for all bows, crossbows, stones, and nerf a bit some archers one handed skill because some of them are pretty OP in melee like Palatine Guard.

This could look like a huge nerf for archers, but funnily enough, they are still pretty effective and 50 Palatine Guard units are still able to win the same battle you are looking in that video against Vlandian army xD. My campaign is being much more enjoyable though.

 

[hruza]

Well, how is killing everything sustaining less, if any casualties not outperforming?

Because you can't always get away with not getting in to contact with the enemy.

A tier 3 imperial archers army will wreck anything in sp.

Nope.

You may argue they might get rolled on the ground by a full tier 5 equivalent, but there is no such army against the AI.

There is also no such army as full 3 tier against AI. AI armies are tier 2, may be 2.5 tier at average.

Tier 3 khuzait horse archers are just godly, though. Uncontested wrecking ball of the game (but yeah, you gotta cheese sieges. Still, the option is there to win the game with them)

Until they meet Sturgian horse raiders. Then they are dead tier 3 Khuzait archers. I did not play with last beta however, I don't know how modified raiders with reduced ammo work.

 

[Marajah]

Because you can't always get away with not getting in to contact with the enemy.



Nope.



There is also no such army as full 3 tier against AI. AI armies are tier 2, may be 2.5 tier at average.



Until they meet Sturgian horse raiders. Then they are dead tier 3 Khuzait archers. I did not play with last beta however, I don't know how modified raiders with reduced ammo work.

You absolutely can, and even if you don't with a simple line, separating your archers in 2 groups will lead to a V formation, with half the archers hitting the flank/back of the enemy while they try to engage your other archers (which you can pull back). This tactic only gets some resistance against aserai, with their fast cavalry and single palace guards who hit your lines killing 12 troops.

What the hell do you mean by there's no such army as full tier 3 against AI? Of course there is. I'm talking about me building that army, not the AI.

Have you ever played khuzait at all? Tier 3 horse archers do some retarded damage and are very easy to amass, unlike leveling up sturgian woodsmen. Also, no, they are not hard countered by javelin cav.

 

[Apocal]

Also, no, they are not hard countered by javelin cav.

Eh, perhaps not hard countered in the absolutist sense of a running man meeting a brick wall, but being counter-charged by javelin cavalry not only kills or unhorses are fair number but it also disrupts their Cantabrian circle and the horse archers scatter. One scattered, their poor individual accuracy makes them far less effective. Of course, if the javelin cavalry all get killed and the Cantabrian circle gets re-established, then yeah, they'll go back to being effective.

But it definitely does work to counter them, in my experience.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

What the hell do you mean by there's no such army as full tier 3 against AI? Of course there is. I'm talking about me building that army, not the AI.

I think it's incomprehensible to most people that you're complaining about something you choose to do, that the AI doesn't do. You-no-like-you-no-do

 

[Dabos37]

Sometimes you simply end with tons of archers withou een going for it. Mostly because you fight battles, get infantry and cadvalry killed, and then recruit prisioners. Infantry and cavalry die while archers do not, so even if I start with 30% Archers party, I ends with +50-60%.

 

[Kenzo-0-]

Ok, i've read all the comments and watched the videos. I've got 300 hours in game so i kinda know what's going on as well. Here's what i think;
Archers are performing better than they should, but not necessarily just because they are way too OP, it's about others are being kinda sh*t as well. Archers should always be effective but that doesn't mean the rest should suck. I also can't understand how can they see at night, they got night visions or something? To fix the balance i think theese little changes could be added to the game. Even one of them would at least somewhat fix the problem.

1-Make shield wall an actual wall. Most of the time when i command "shield wall", they would rise their shields and that's it, sometimes they even spread out dunno why. Infantary should go literally shoulder to shoulder and make a proper shield wall. The ones on front should protect their legs and the ones behind should make a sloping wall and the wall should move in harmony. Also even if shield wall is not build, why not raise your shield while running thorugh rain of arrows?

2-Nerf their accuracy a bit, at night they are not suppose to be as effective since they are relying at the moonlight alone to see. For daytime, decreased rate of fire alone would decrease the amount of opness archers have.

3-Increasing the amount of xp and gold required to upgrade the archer troops will decrease amount archers for both ai and the player. Altough this looks like a temporary fix, when combined with some other changes, this can reduce the archer spam for parties.

4-Weakening projectile damage at distance can give a chance to infantary for closing in at least. It feels like the moment they reach the sweet spot, 1/4 of them gets taken down. If that distance (when the green bar starts to raid the killfeed) is reduced, then perhaps infantary can take on archers.

5-Actual armors and shields would save the day. Feels like an armor does not protect it's owner.

6-Not about archers but pls, "Make cavalry great again!".

 

[Silly joker]

Lol the archers, which are tier 5, will of course have the upper hand if you order a charge from that far away. As hruza has said, You need to command them to move in formation as close to their unit as you can, preferably attack from one side at first so they can overwhelm the end of the archer unit and mow down the rest in a line formation charge.

Another thing that I have noticed is because all units are right-handed, the side you are shooting from matters. Infantry wield their shield in their left hand so if archers are shooting at them from the left, it will be blocked. In the case of your video, since it is just a test and there are no other formations to consider, you should move your sergeants in shield wall formation to your right.

In large battles, because the AI is ****, it is useful to just have your infantry in shield wall and hold fire until enemies are close enough. Archers are best behind them and on a hill whenever possible. If you have horse archers place them to the left side of your shield wall to shoot at charging infantry at their weapon hand. Your cav is best used as clean up or to draw attention to expose the weapon hand of enemy infantry to archers. Depending on the situation you may choose to order your horse archers to follow their sergeants because it is the only significant AI improvement from Warband.

With careful timing and repositioning, you can **** on the AI. I set my battle size to 1000 and the most I have been able to kill 1000 troops at best.

 

[Maximum997]

OP or not OP, but archer heavy army is just way more easy to play.

 

[Dabos37]

Lol the archers, which are tier 5, will of course have the upper hand if you order a charge from that far away. As hruza has said, You need to command them to move in formation as close to their unit as you can, preferably attack from one side at first so they can overwhelm the end of the archer unit and mow down the rest in a line formation charge.

Another thing that I have noticed is because all units are right-handed, the side you are shooting from matters. Infantry wield their shield in their left hand so if archers are shooting at them from the left, it will be blocked. In the case of your video, since it is just a test and there are no other formations to consider, you should move your sergeants in shield wall formation to your right.

In large battles, because the AI is ****, it is useful to just have your infantry in shield wall and hold fire until enemies are close enough. Archers are best behind them and on a hill whenever possible. If you have horse archers place them to the left side of your shield wall to shoot at charging infantry at their weapon hand. Your cav is best used as clean up or to draw attention to expose the weapon hand of enemy infantry to archers. Depending on the situation you may choose to order your horse archers to follow their sergeants because it is the only significant AI improvement from Warband.

With careful timing and repositioning, you can **** on the AI. I set my battle size to 1000 and the most I have been able to kill 1000 troops at best.

Are you aware that my complain is about how easy I can defeat AI using my archers, and it is not related to I cannot beat the AI, right?