Just another thread about OP Archers.

[Dabos37]

I am not sure about the reason behind archers being soo good in this game and they should be nerfed. The reasons because I find archers so OP in this game:

- They usually get tons of kills in battles and most of the time you can route the enemies, even without having to engage them.
- It is extremely easy to level up archers and get top tier units just fighting some few battles against looters. Try to level up cavalry units and compare, getting top tier archers is way to easy because they are insanely good and able to kill from distance without much risk of losing them.
- They outperform cavalry units in 1v1 in open battlefields which is nonsense.
- Archers make battles too easy.

The problem is that Archers way too accurate and perform too many headshots. The damage is also arguably too high but not the main issue IMO.

I know that some people will say that archers are ok and they do not need a nerf (judging for other threads), but please, test and compare archers with other infantry and cavalry units, and check how effective they are in term of kills and leveling.

Horse Archers are also pretty accurate and should receive the same nerf than regular archers.

 

[Apocal]

I agree with everything you wrote except this:

The problem is that Archers way too accurate and perform too many headshots. The damage is also arguably too high but not the main issue IMO.

Horse Archers are also pretty accurate and should receive the same nerf than regular archers.

Archers of either variety aren't exceptionally accurate. They get a lot of hits, including headshots, because they're firing at tightly-packed formations. Nerfing their accuracy stats, within reason, will leave them just as able to land hits and headshots.

If you nerfed their accuracy to the point where they actually miss a whole formation, it will look outright ridiculous, with arrows flying off in random directions.

 

[Dionaea]

I still have lethal casualties in my armies so until I have 0 deaths in my army like I usually have with horse archers I'd say they aren't OP enough

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I am not sure about the reason behind archers being soo good in this game and they should be nerfed. The reasons because I find archers so OP in this game:

- They usually get tons of kills in battles and most of the time you can route the enemies, even without having to engage them.
- It is extremely easy to level up archers and get top tier units just fighting some few battles against looters. Try to level up cavalry units and compare, getting top tier archers is way to easy because they are insanely good and able to kill from distance without much risk of losing them.
- They outperform cavalry units in 1v1 in open battlefields which is nonsense.
- Archers make battles too easy.

The problem is that Archers way too accurate and perform too many headshots. The damage is also arguably too high but not the main issue IMO.

I know that some people will say that archers are ok and they do not need a nerf (judging for other threads), but please, test and compare archers with other infantry and cavalry units, and check how effective they are in term of kills and leveling.

Horse Archers are also pretty accurate and should receive the same nerf than regular archers.

I think you're assuming and misunderstanding somethings about the game.
1 Cav is garbage and need it's AI and stats changed so it can actually hit things. It been a teency bit improved but needs more.
2 The AI is garbage and does all kinds of stupid things that gets them shot to death for no reason. This needs to be changed.
3 Ranged units will always be an advantage in an open battle, that's what they're for. Do you what an advantage is? It means they are better, they out perform other options.
4 Armor probably need to be increased or changed to reduce damage, maybe. I'm not 100% on this but it's possible. This won't help low level fodder units though, they'll still get shot to death if the AI brings them to a battle, as they should.

I think your entire way of thinking about this is flawed. Something does a good job so it has a problem? The problem isn't other things completely ****ing up all over the place?

They don't have that great of accuracy either. It can take an outrageous amount of time for them to shoot down a few moving enemies.

please, test and compare archers with other infantry and cavalry units, and check how effective they are in term of kills and leveling.
Yeah and lets get a baseball bat and a bicycle and test against it my friends shotgun too.
Of course they're better then infantry. Infantry is for putting in front of archers so they get shot and rammed instead of the archers.
I think Cav needs to be improved a lot and infantry has AI issues, but there no way Infantry can be expected to kill as well as ranged units in the open.

 

[hruza]

they are insanely good and able to kill from distance without much risk of losing them.

Just like in real life.

It is extremely easy to level up archers and get top tier units just fighting some few battles against looters. Try to level up cavalry units and compare

Try forest bandits and come to tell us how easy is to level your archers compared to cavalry. If you engage bunch or half naked dudes with pitchforks and stones with an archer unit, then yes it's going to be easy. As it should be.

- They outperform cavalry units in 1v1 in open battlefields which is nonsense.

No they don't.

- Archers make battles too easy.

False. AI armies been composed of low tier units against player armies made of top tier units is what makes battles easy.

The problem is that Archers way too accurate and perform too many headshots.

False. They don't target heads at all, AI targets torso by default. Even if target is one meter away from them.

The damage is also arguably too high but not the main issue IMO.

Damage is comparable to any other weapons.

I know that some people will say that archers are ok and they do not need a nerf (judging for other threads), but please, test and compare archers with other infantry and cavalry units, and check how effective they are in term of kills and leveling.

I did. My infantry kills archers without single loss.

Horse Archers are also pretty accurate and should receive the same nerf than regular archers.

Sword and spear units are more accurate.


Last thing we need is for archers to be nerffed in to uselessness. What we need instead is AI that can actually use it's units, archers including more competently. Starting with AI infantry engaging shieldwall when under fire.

 

[Morbo513]

To me, the level of accuracy and rapidity of even the basic bows and their wielders border on ridiculous. In Warband, bows were an actual challenge to use, NPC archers would miss much more than they'd hit at ranges > 50m and so would the average player. If you get hit by an arrow in Warband, you either made yourself an easy target, or it took skill and/or good equipment on the archer's part (or volume of enemy archers in campaign/captain battle). I much preferred that dynamic, both in SP and MP.
In BL, the lack of friendly fire, in addition to faster, more accurate and powerful bows, allows archers to shoot into melee combat with complete impunity and score kills without significant challenge.

 

[Dabos37]

I think you're assuming and misunderstanding somethings about the game.
1 Cav is garbage and need it's AI and stats changed so it can actually hit things. It been a teency bit improved but needs more.
2 The AI is garbage and does all kinds of stupid things that gets them shot to death for no reason. This needs to be changed.
3 Ranged units will always be an advantage in an open battle, that's what they're for. Do you what an advantage is? It means they are better, they out perform other options.
4 Armor probably need to be increased or changed to reduce damage, maybe. I'm not 100% on this but it's possible. This won't help low level fodder units though, they'll still get shot to death if the AI brings them to a battle, as they should.

I think your entire way of thinking about this is flawed. Something does a good job so it has a problem? The problem isn't other things completely ****ing up all over the place?

They don't have that great of accuracy either. It can take an outrageous amount of time for them to shoot down a few moving enemies.

please, test and compare archers with other infantry and cavalry units, and check how effective they are in term of kills and leveling.
Yeah and lets get a baseball bat and a bicycle and test against it my friends shotgun too.
Of course they're better then infantry. Infantry is for putting in front of archers so they get shot and rammed instead of the archers.
I think Cav needs to be improved a lot and infantry has AI issues, but there no way Infantry can be expected to kill as well as ranged units in the open.

1- Cavalry is not that bad and it is effective against infantry. On the other hand, cavalry charge is not enough though. The thing is that cavalry is effective against infantry but for some reason, if you charge 30 looters with 30 knights, just 2-3 looters get killed in the initial charge. Something is wrong about this.
2- Yes, AI should make better use of shields, but this does not change the fact about archers are able to do tons of headshots.
3- Cavalry should have an advantage in open battlefields, while archers' advantage should be on sieges and irregular battlefields.
4- I have not a strong opinion about armor, if it should be buffed or not. In any case, this would mean a nerf for archers damage.

Concerning infantry, archers, and cavalry test, it is about how fast we are able to get top tier archers compared to any other type of unit. Getting top tier archers is like 5 times easier than getting top tier infantry/cavalry and it should not be the case. Archers are super easy to level up because they are killing machines and get tons of kills per battle.

 

[Dabos37]

Just like in real life.



Try forest bandits and come to tell us how easy is to level your archers compared to cavalry. If you engage bunch or half naked dudes with pitchforks and stones with an archer unit, then yes it's going to be easy. As it should be.



No they don't.



False. AI armies been composed of low tier units against player armies made of top tier units is what makes battles easy.



False. They don't target heads at all, AI targets torso by default. Even if target is one meter away from them.



Damage is comparable to any other weapons.



I did. My infantry kills archers without single loss.



Sword and spear units are more accurate.


Last thing we need is for archers to be nerffed in to uselessness. What we need instead is AI that can actually use it's units, archers including more competently. Starting with AI infantry engaging shieldwall when under fire.

Archers defeat cavarly in 1v1, I tested and uploaded all videos in this thread:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/archers-need-a-nerf.424434/page-15#post-9469795

about "I did. My infantry kills archers without single loss" - I am talking about fighting a battle against a decent army, not killing 20 Looters with 50 Legionaries.

 

[hruza]

Archers defeat cavarly in 1v1, I tested and uploaded all videos in this thread:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/archers-need-a-nerf.424434/page-15#post-9469795

Cavalry defeats archers in 1v1, I tested and uploaded results too. In the very same threat.

about "I did. My infantry kills archers without single loss" - I am talking about fighting a battle against a decent army, not killing 20 Looters with 50 Legionaries.

Looters are not archers.

 

[Kulgrinda Košmarjus]

Infantry/Cavalry AI is really bad. Archer AI is bad too, but it's harder to notice since they are simply programmed to shoot, which is easy.
Infantry units start chasing cav/other units while standing next to enemy crossbowmen and turn their back to them. Cav units do the same. Infantry shield walls are non existent. Infantry/cav priorities are non existent. Archers can be kited while riding next to them which makes a unit run around whiteout letting out a shot.
The entire battle strategy is non existent ant makes me want to cry. Current shallowness is sad on all levels.
You say 1.43 sieges are better - yeah, they are. But I do a custom battle, go out alone and I can stab an elite infantry squad in the back endlessly while they wait to mount the walls. One guy comes after me out of 30 - I solo him down and keep doing that. Is this going to be fixed? Who knows.
Was warband so bad too? I don't recall.

 

[hruza]

Was warband so bad too? I don't recall.

It was way worst. Archers were next to useless and horse archers were useless completely. AI can now actually skirmish properly. Bannerlord AI is definitely better, lot of problems in sieges are related to pathfinding, rather then AI in general.

One also needs to understand that there are some limits to the AI and it will newer be as good as human brain. There will always be ways to exploit it. It's up to a player to not exploiting them and making his plays more enjoyable.

I don't expect AI to be super smart, I think it just needs bit of polishing. Like infantry using shield wall. That's not a difficult thing to do. Make AI use shieldwall and the same players who spam these "archers OP" threads will come running to complain how their archer spam is not working anymore and demanding that infantry and cavalry are nerfed because they are "OP".

 

[sinusoid]

Only part of this i agree with is friendly fire. I can, and have, killed my own guy shooting into masses, or just a throw/shot going off target, and every other soldier should be able to as well.

 

[Androme1]

The reason Archers are overpowered is because Armour is basically worthless.

 

[Dabos37]

I don't expect AI to be super smart, I think it just needs bit of polishing. Like infantry using shield wall. That's not a difficult thing to do. Make AI use shieldwall and the same players who spam these "archers OP" threads will come running to complain how their archer spam is not working anymore and demanding that infantry and cavalry are nerfed because they are "OP".

I doubt I would complain because archer spam gets nerfed... And yes, part is the problem is that the AI is not able to block arrows effectively, and even without shieldwall, the AI should be able to raise shields faster and in time.

By the way, I have just tested Cavalry vs Archers in Beta 1.4.3, while the situation is now better (maybe due to units now using skills or ninja nerf for archers), Khuzaits Lancers are still getting wrecked against Palatine Guards.

I think archers should get an accuracy nerf, and at the same time, the AI should be able to block missiles more effectively.

 

[Dabos37]

Anyway, even if the AI would be able to block arrows more effectively, units like Palatine Guard are still able to defeat units like Sargeants, even if Sargeants use shield wall:

 

[hruza]

Anyway, even if the AI would be able to block arrows more effectively, units like Palatine Guard are still able to defeat units like Sargeants, even if Sargeants use shield wall:

...in hand to hand fighting. Which undermines your whole point about archers been OP.

 

[Dabos37]

...in hand to hand fighting. Which undermines your whole point about archers been OP.

Not really, I have never said that Archers are OP because Palatine Guards defeat Sargents in shield wall without problems, it was just giving extra information to devs to balance it. Plus not sure if you have noticed it, but most of these Palatine Guards were actually shooting all the time.

Archers are OP because they are too accurate, they perform too many headshots, and because the AI is not able to block effectively.

 

[Ninjaman1277]

...in hand to hand fighting. Which undermines your whole point about archers been OP.

Based on what I've seen I am very pleased by AI using shields properly and strafing in the second attempt.However in all three attempts when Sargeants get to archers they swarm around 4-5 enemies and expose their backs to other archers.It's like they don't care for their life at that point.

 

[Ninjaman1277]

Not really, I have never said that Archers are OP because Palatine Guards defeat Sargents in shield wall without problems, it was just giving extra information to devs to balance it. Plus not sure if you have noticed it, but most of these Palatine Guards were actually shooting all the time.

Archers are OP because they are too accurate, they perform too many headshots, and because the AI is not able to block effectively.

Based on the video you sent,the problem seems to rely on Sargeants AI when they get close to them.

 

[hruza]

Based on what I've seen I am very pleased by AI using shields properly and strafing in the second attempt.However in all three attempts when Sargeants get to archers they swarm around 4-5 enemies and expose their backs to other archers.It's like they don't care for their life at that point.

Sergeants were not under AI. They have been commanded in to shield wall, AI won't do it on it's own. And yes, the way sergeants have been handled by the player in that video leave lot to be desired. The proper way of attacking those archers would be to move them in a formation, rather then ordering them to charge. That way they wouldn't expose their unshielded sides and they would have beaten archers. Moreover once they were in melee, they should have been ordered to drop their shield wall. Shield wall is bad for a melee.