Item balancing and additions.

[Leifdin]

Top tier Nord troops have like 30 strength, so we could consider that super badass strong. 15 to 20 is for standard troops. So 20-24 isn't really that much. BTW wearing armour and wielding weapons isn't just about pure brute strength, it's also a lot about stamina and endurance. I think both of those are summed up behind strength attribute.

 

[Windyplains]

The idea here was to develop some form of item progression that the standard game almost entirely lacks.  My goal is to make it so that you have to make some choices on how you outfit yourself as well as your companions as one way of increasing the mod's difficulty without having to go the "raise AI troops to tournament competitor level" kind of route that other mods have done.  On the other hand, I do not want to make it so strict that folks feel like if they aren't a strength based hero that they can't pick up anything beyond leather because that would be silly.  One thing to consider is that with v0.24's release the option to increase your attributes via emblems now exists which should open up a lot of room for customizing one's character, but it will take longer to acquire.

While Bankoleva was beginning work on the itemization he had planned on giving items more of a regional flavor and that's why I implemented the region selector in the "view all items" report.  The idea here was to make variant items that would fit a consistent theme in an area.  Using the Nords as an example here is what he was looking at:

+ Lighter armour (- 15% weight on all nord armour)
+ Stronger Shields (+25% durability/20% resistance on all nord defined shields)
+ Best shield in the game (huscarl shield….. cannot be used on horseback)
+ Focus on Axes (+ 3 damage to all nord defined axes)
+ greater variety of axes at Nord shops

What we shouldn't do is create a bunch of variants for every type of item, but choose some item types that should be more interesting in a given region.  So instead of Nords using a standard wooden shield, they'd be using a Nordic Footman's Shield (or something regionally named) that would only show up in their merchant areas and would be pretty good compared to its standard counterpart.  Ideally this is the kind of equipment that all troops of that region would also be using.  This is one aspect I'd like to keep in the design process and would be curious what other folks think on it.  Doing something along this line lets you implement multiple shields while still having a way of naming them something unique (and using different appearances).

 

[Leifdin]

That's nice

 

[Jarric]

The Nordic Noble Armor is really, really lovely. Embossed straps! Little man-purse! Wherever you guys stole this, steal more!

Balancewise, maybe some of the really old vanilla stuff can be removed. Stuff like Black Armor is an eyesore, and it's pretty much all I get from tournaments once I hit level 18 or so. Good money, but you can't sell it until one of the Useful Contacts NPCs hit 20.

I like the regional planning and cultural advantages through item design.

 

[TrolKabu]

Those items related to factions are a nice addition to the skills for the troops. It makes them even more uniques and focused on the culture of each faction.

 

[Slate024]

maybe some of the really old vanilla stuff can be removed. Stuff like Black Armor is an eyesore

The Black Armor will be re-textured its just not priority at the moment. 

 

[Slate024]

Been working hard the last few days wrapping up the items file, as of right now 90% of native and added armors have been renamed for regions, attached to a specific region(s), added new strength requirements, and minor stat tweaks to accompany the new strength requirements.  This chart below is what I have based it on, there are a few armors here and there with a bit of room as far as strength reqs, not all of the boots and gloves have been given regions or changed yet.  Would like to get more feedback about plate/chain/ boots and who they should belong to.  Right now I see a huge difference in shops after the item overhaul.  I have uploaded the new items file to the drop for our testers to take a look at, and I will continue to update the drop.  There will be some revision I'm sure after some feedback, I figure since we have character abilities and tokens to upgrade, the strength reqs should be better and more balanced.

Today I have started going over weapons charts and building a base strength platform for them, and making weapons region specific, as well as renaming them.



Armor base strength requirements:

ARMOR TIERS
Strength Requirements:
T5 = 24-20  T5 Plate armors.  "No armors require 24, just gave myself some room in case"
T4 = 19-17  T4 Chain mail/Lamellar
T3 = 16-13  T3 Heavy leather/padded mail
T2 = 12-10  T2 Light leather/heavy padded
T1 = 7-0    T1 Light padded/cloth

HELM TIERS
Strength Requirements:
T4 = 18-15  T4 Full helms
T3 = 15-12  T3 Half helms
T2 = 12-9    T2 Light helms
T1 = 7-0    T1 Cloth helms/hats

GAUNTLET TIERS
Strength Requirements:
T3 = 16-14  T3 Plate Mittens/Gauntlets
T2 = 13-11  T2 Lamellar/Scale Gauntlets
T1 = 10-0    T1 Chain Mittens/Leather Gloves

BOOT TIERS
Strength Requirements:
T3 = 16-14  T3 Iron Greaves 
T2 = 13-10  T2 Chainmail Boots
T1 - 9-0    T1 Leather Boots/shoes/leggings

 

[Jarric]

I've always wondered why no developer simply put the STR requirement as the chestpiece weight. Heavy suit of 19lbs chain? 19Str. Superheavy 30lbs plate? 30Str. Saves a lot of maths, no?

 

[Slate024]

I've always wondered why no developer simply put the STR requirement as the chestpiece weight. Heavy suit of 19lbs chain? 19Str. Superheavy 30lbs plate? 30Str. Saves a lot of maths, no?

I bet there is a reason why..

 

[Leifdin]

I've always wondered why no developer simply put the STR requirement as the chestpiece weight. Heavy suit of 19lbs chain? 19Str. Superheavy 30lbs plate? 30Str. Saves a lot of maths, no?

Front plate weights just a couple of kilograms.

 

[Karl XII]

I've always wondered why no developer simply put the STR requirement as the chestpiece weight. Heavy suit of 19lbs chain? 19Str. Superheavy 30lbs plate? 30Str. Saves a lot of maths, no?

There's more to it than that. For example, field plate is easier to wear than mail which is easier to wear than lamelar which is easier to wear than scale. All has to do with weight distribution and flexibility. Think of the difference of how a 60lb ruck feels with or without a frame, and with or without a belt across the hips.

 

[Jarric]

I am academically aware of the wearability of field plate vs mail in real life, but when it comes to game balance, I thought it could have been as simple as "Every 2pts of chest armor needs 1 Str req" or the aforementioned in-game weight.

Would be interested to hear the whys and wherefores of armor formula balancing.

 

[Slate024]

I am academically aware of the wearability of field plate vs mail in real life, but when it comes to game balance, I thought it could have been as simple as "Every 2pts of chest armor needs 1 Str req" or the aforementioned in-game weight.

Would be interested to hear the whys and wherefores of armor formula balancing.

It's not a bad idea at all, I went with a tier system similar to Windy's system he designed for troops. So adding 1pt strength req per 2 points of weight..so a armor weighing 10.0 would require 20 strength?  I think that may just be a bit too high for our design considering most medium to heavy leather armors weigh around 10-13.  There is a bit if wiggle room between armors for strength requirements, and it gets to down to the dirty sometimes and is based on looks and length of the armors and weapons as well.  Mostly the damage of a weapon and weight of a weapon was taken in account regarding strength requirements.  Same for armors, designated into tier categories and basing a strength reqs off of protection/damage and weight was taken in to account as well.  But the highest strength req is 23 for any plate armor.  There will however be a armor set that requires 24. 

 

[zapbib]

I like a bit better the new requirement.

Oh, and Someone said that high tier armor makes you immune to arrow. You might want to check your difficulty level. With full plate and great helm I take a couple point damage from the very basic bowman. It happen regularly that I get hit for like 80 damage from an arrow however, that's pretty much insta-death unless you have perk-boosted health.

Maybe we could do some light plate that don't give that much armor but match padded-leather/chain? I always found it ridiculous to be the king and go around in some scampy leather clothes. It would also helps companions look a bit better.

 

[Leifdin]

Rhodok crossbowmen hit me for 30-40 dmg I thing(1/3-1/4 of my HP) while I wear max or almost max armour.

 

[Jarric]

I actually said "1 Str per 1 weight" or "1 Str per 2 armor", Dawg.

That would make, for example a 15 weight chest armor need 15Str, have +30Body and whatever Leg. I just asked because sometimes it feels a bit random. Why do Byrnies have a lot less leg armor? Why don't the Sea Raider Chain Mail? What's up with Vaegir Sentries and that anvil they're carrying under their substandard gear? That kind of thing.

I'm sure there's a logical algorithm behind it all, was just curious.

 

[Slate024]

I actually said "1 Str per 1 weight" or "1 Str per 2 armor", Dawg.

That would make, for example a 15 weight chest armor need 15Str, have +30Body and whatever Leg. I just asked because sometimes it feels a bit random. Why do Byrnies have a lot less leg armor? Why don't the Sea Raider Chain Mail? What's up with Vaegir Sentries and that anvil they're carrying under their substandard gear? That kind of thing.

I'm sure there's a logical algorithm behind it all, was just curious.

My mistake, its not even fair to compare ANY troops to anything at this point regarding troop stats/tiers etc.  Everything is subject to change until the items file is finalized. The equipment troops have now will be revised anyways since everything is attached to a specific region and renamed, and changes have been made.

That is an interesting take on stats for armors though, I am almost tempted to make a small dload for the updated items for people to test out and give feedback.  The items file is vital, very vital the way I see it.  I enjoy reading feedback from players about this.  I'll talk to Windy and see what he thinks. 

 

[Karl XII]

I am academically aware of the wearability of field plate vs mail in real life, but when it comes to game balance, I thought it could have been as simple as "Every 2pts of chest armor needs 1 Str req" or the aforementioned in-game weight.

Would be interested to hear the whys and wherefores of armor formula balancing.

Not just academic, give fighting in the SCA a whirl.

Anyway, in real life the deciding factor for protection was cash. Or social class. From ancient times to the high medieval, by and large equipment and place in the line of battle was decided by class and the resources that status commanded. All using strength does is create an artificial proxy for this. An interesting proxy for the intangible would be level rather than strength.

 

[Karl XII]

<<The items file is vital, very vital the way I see it. >>

Agreed.

Once items are culture-affiliated, any thought to limiting commissions to equipment associated with the culture of the smith?

 

[Mravac Kid]

If you want to go that way, better to give the smith some sort of bonus for his culture-related items... everyone decent enough can make decent enough armor/weapons of any type (it's not like they're greatly different technologically or something, it's all the same basic principles), but is better at doing his specific stuff. Maybe limit their ability regarding making masterwork stuff from other cultures.