In trying to plan out and design the models and such for this mod, I have already done a fair amount of research. I have been thinking it would be good if others on this board would like to offer their knowledge or advice as well on the types of troopsr we should have for the various regions- as well as ideas for their.
After posting the preview pics of my first transitional armour, I was sent this message by GodHandApostle, which I thought would make a good opener to the topic:
...my reply forgotten,
So there you have it, a long post, but GodHandApostle has put some time and thought into this, so I thought it should be shared with the rest of the team.
After posting the preview pics of my first transitional armour, I was sent this message by GodHandApostle, which I thought would make a good opener to the topic:
Re: Armors for Italy at War
Quote from: GodHandApostole on September 23, 2009, 06:15:14 am
Hello.
Just saw the work you've done for the mod (the new armor) and it's really good!
But, I'd like to ask about some of the future suits you'll make. One important thing about the kind of soldiers in Italy during the late 14th century is that they were mostly non-noble, which usually meant poorly trained in comparison with the rest of Europe knights. The so called men-at-arms. They were mostly merchants and artisans that fought for the city council, but since they were rich enough, they did so using plate armors, warhorses and knight's weapons. I might suggest something similar to Rath0s as well, but something that might be important to give a realistic idea of the Italian situation, is to give the troop tree a secondary branch: if you're aiming at portraying men-at-arms, then those suits are more then perfect. The one you showed, for one, would do with a closed bascinet. Also, men-at-arms rarely had any sort of heraldry, not being nobles. As an alternative, maybe it would work to make a tree dedicated to the Italian barons. The nobles of Italy were not as rich as those in the rest of Europe, so they often used their fathers' or grandfathers' armors with the family heraldry. They still had warhorses, but barded and also showing the heraldry of the family, while men-at-arms would not have it. To represent this difference, it would be great if you could make some armors that look less advanced, somewhat more poor. Something like this one
Or maybe like the first or second from the left in this
Those knights were often independent from the city council and even used to hire foreign mercenaries as guards or to sworn loyalty to either the Pope or to the crown of the south. That could add some realism and, of course, some variety in the equipment of high tier troops
Hope I do not bother you with this message and again great job!
Hello GodHandApostole, nice to meet you.
...
I think I will not make any armours with long surcoats, however, as these pretty much went out of style after the 1350s. Almost every portrayal of a surcoat I've seen after that time is thigh-length. As for the rest of the harness, there will be some with studded leather and splinted cuisses (thigh) and vambraces(forearm), as well as rerebraces (upper arm) of cuir-builli with rondelles as the only shoulder protection. I may make several variations of each armour, with combinations of splint and steel (damn, I've got a lot of work to do!).
As to actually mapping out troop trees... Well, that's beyond my scope for this project. Rath0s will be the one to do that. I was, however, having similar thoughts about the men-at-arms and mercenaries, with a separate branch for militias.
Quote
Those knights were often independent from the city council and even used to hire foreign mercenaries as guards or to sworn loyalty to either the Pope or to the crown of the south. That could add some realism and, of course, some variety in the equipment of high tier troops
This was kind of what I'd been thinking about when I was deciding what kind of stuff the mercenaries would wear- French, and particularly British, armour was fairly advanced due to their constant warring with each-other, and would give us license to add some variety to the armours.
Again, thank you for offering your thoughts on this. If you have any further research you'd like to do for equipment, I'd be happy to hear from you. I think there should be a thread on the board specifically for equipment and troop trees research- after all, I end up spending as much time doing that as actually modeling the stuff.
Regards,
Narf of Picklestink
Thanks for the reply.
The surcoat topic depends mostly on who we're talking about: those nobles loyal to the Pope were most likely very poor in comparison with the rest of the European nobles, wich perhaps (but these are often conjectures) meant a poorer equipment. Italy was a particular case during the middle ages, and even more during the last centuries, because the north was extremly advanced in tecnologies and in armor creation. Milan armors were famous and appriciated in Frace as well as in other kingdoms accros Europe. Instead, the south of Italy and the roman principality(that is how the nobles loyal to the Pope are usually refered) were both "late" in developping war tecnologies. They used mercenaries more then the cities in the north, but that meant their armies were, surely smaller, but more trained. But those small armies were actually led by those poorly equiped but highly trained prices from Rome; they were more or less like the English nobles, where the upcoming merchants and clergy powers were conquering fiefs from them, forcing them to partecipate in the war against France to earn enough with loots to pay their debts. The King also promised to pay the debts himself to those who served in France. This is similar to what guilds and various associations did to the roman principality: merchants from the north took their estates and they where forced to go outside Italy to earn enough to come back and buy their lands again. To portray this aspect, they should also be quite stronger then northern men-at-arms, being veterans. Some of them were probably even former crusaders.
I thought that lornger surcoats could help giving the idea of them being less whealty. But of course this belong more to the troop trees. So it will be discussed elsewhere, I assume
For now, thanks again for the quick reply and I wish you luck for the coming work on the mod!
...my reply forgotten,
The native long surcoat can be retextured as well I think, as done with the Britain at War templar one...that is already something close to a early-to-mid 14th century not-so-wealthy armor
And when I first read the huge number of passages and menpower needed to realize a simple piece of textile, clear it, colour it and stitch it with the heraldry, I came to think it was quite expensive...Not in Venice, since there the textile market was extremly advanced for the period and had a pre-industrial structure, wich worked faster and at a lower cost then in the rest of Italy, thanks to the good relationship they had with Bisanzio (used the Italian word, since I can't remember how it translates in English). Many thinks that relationships with the eastern part of the sea were lost with the end of the Crusaders states, but Venice kept them going until the end of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Turkish invasion. And when the Emperor got tired of them, they even conquered the city, during the fourth crusade.
But is not something strictly needed...it would be already enough to have a version of that templar surcoat with a Pope heraldry, like crossed keys on white or red field.
Last question about the whole armore topic: you plan on realizing some closed helmets as well? Because there are a couple I've found that should look good
So there you have it, a long post, but GodHandApostle has put some time and thought into this, so I thought it should be shared with the rest of the team.
