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It actually IS possible to block arrows with sword.
- 主题发起人 Harmi
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If it helps to think of it in another way, think about how and why lances are effective on horseback. All of the energy of the horse & rider is focused down to the head of the lance, and if the horse is charging then there's a ton of energy to transfer through that small point. You want to keep your lance pointed in the same direction your horse is going, so you can hit them square on with the head of the lance and not glance off of them at an angle. On the other hand, if your horse is going at no more than a brisk walking pace and you hold your lance angled away from your horse 30 to 45 degrees then when you hit someone with the head of your lance you have less energy to transfer and will be doing it less efficiently, because your lance's angle is difficult to brace between yourself and the target. Your target will be pushed back by the lance, but they will also be pushing the lance further outward from your horse, which means some of your energy is being redirected away from their body as if they were parrying the blow.Harmi 说:Okay, I an amateur and I can't add more to this. You might be right and I wrong. But where are Mythbusters when we need them?
Arrows work the same way, but on a much smaller scale. With an arrow fired at high speed from a strong bow, directly at a target, your bow will impart the greatest possible energy into the arrow and from the arrow directly into your target, focused effectively on a very small point. With a slow arrow that is approaching off-axis to the target, you will have less energy total and inefficient energy transfer.
Something I didn't mention before is that arrows used in warfare are typically quite heavy, fired from high draw-weight bows, and have low static spine (less spine = less flexible arrow shaft). There were so many arrowheads used that it's impossible to make any generalized statements about those, but shafts for war had to be strong & shot at high speed to be effective. Low draw-weight bows like those used in the previous videos shoot best with low weight, high spine (more flexible) arrows, and the shots performed are all done at low speed for the bows that are used because they aren't fully drawn. None of that is conducive to getting an effective shot down range.
For a modern day, real life situation where the damage potential of a given bow & arrow is a serious consideration, we can look at hunting laws. Many states in the US have legal minimums for deer hunting with bows, most commonly for bow draw weight, but also for bow length, arrow weight, and arrowhead style, sharpness, and diameter. The absolute lowest bow draw weight requirement I have seen required by law for any state that has a requirement is 30lbs, and the arrows must have broadheads. Keep in mind, this is for shooting an unarmored, unclothed target, weighing the same as a healthy & average height adult woman, at close range with a razor-sharp cutting head fired from a fully drawn bow. In other words, better conditions than you'll ever get on a battlefield, and more powerful than what is demonstrated in these videos.
Harmi
Squire
Orion 说:If it helps to think of it in another way, think about how and why lances are effective on horseback. All of the energy of the horse & rider is focused down to the head of the lance, and if the horse is charging then there's a ton of energy to transfer through that small point. You want to keep your lance pointed in the same direction your horse is going, so you can hit them square on with the head of the lance and not glance off of them at an angle. On the other hand, if your horse is going at no more than a brisk walking pace and you hold your lance angled away from your horse 30 to 45 degrees then when you hit someone with the head of your lance you have less energy to transfer and will be doing it less efficiently, because your lance's angle is difficult to brace between yourself and the target. Your target will be pushed back by the lance, but they will also be pushing the lance further outward from your horse, which means some of your energy is being redirected away from their body as if they were parrying the blow.Harmi 说:Okay, I an amateur and I can't add more to this. You might be right and I wrong. But where are Mythbusters when we need them?
Arrows work the same way, but on a much smaller scale. With an arrow fired at high speed from a strong bow, directly at a target, your bow will impart the greatest possible energy into the arrow and from the arrow directly into your target, focused effectively on a very small point. With a slow arrow that is approaching off-axis to the target, you will have less energy total and inefficient energy transfer.
Something I didn't mention before is that arrows used in warfare are typically quite heavy, fired from high draw-weight bows, and have low static spine (less spine = less flexible arrow shaft). There were so many arrowheads used that it's impossible to make any generalized statements about those, but shafts for war had to be strong & shot at high speed to be effective. Low draw-weight bows like those used in the previous videos shoot best with low weight, high spine (more flexible) arrows, and the shots performed are all done at low speed for the bows that are used because they aren't fully drawn. None of that is conducive to getting an effective shot down range.
For a modern day, real life situation where the damage potential of a given bow & arrow is a serious consideration, we can look at hunting laws. Many states in the US have legal minimums for deer hunting with bows, most commonly for bow draw weight, but also for bow length, arrow weight, and arrowhead style, sharpness, and diameter. The absolute lowest bow draw weight requirement I have seen required by law for any state that has a requirement is 30lbs, and the arrows must have broadheads. Keep in mind, this is for shooting an unarmored, unclothed target, weighing the same as a healthy & average height adult woman, at close range with a razor-sharp cutting head fired from a fully drawn bow. In other words, better conditions than you'll ever get on a battlefield, and more powerful than what is demonstrated in these videos.
I don't think the arrows would have very high angles when in the air if ever wanted to have such curvy performance in some forest duel kind of situation. If you have less than 5% angle when hitting the target, it won't take too much from the effectiveness. (at least I believe so) So, I am talking about very low mid-air curves. However, I think this is one of those topics that cannot be settled by just trying to imagine how it would perform. Somebody would for real need to test it.
Orion 说:If it helps to think of it in another way, think about how and why lances are effective on horseback. All of the energy of the horse & rider is focused down to the head of the lance, and if the horse is charging then there's a ton of energy to transfer through that small point. You want to keep your lance pointed in the same direction your horse is going, so you can hit them square on with the head of the lance and not glance off of them at an angle. On the other hand, if your horse is going at no more than a brisk walking pace and you hold your lance angled away from your horse 30 to 45 degrees then when you hit someone with the head of your lance you have less energy to transfer and will be doing it less efficiently, because your lance's angle is difficult to brace between yourself and the target. Your target will be pushed back by the lance, but they will also be pushing the lance further outward from your horse, which means some of your energy is being redirected away from their body as if they were parrying the blow.Harmi 说:Okay, I an amateur and I can't add more to this. You might be right and I wrong. But where are Mythbusters when we need them?
Arrows work the same way, but on a much smaller scale. With an arrow fired at high speed from a strong bow, directly at a target, your bow will impart the greatest possible energy into the arrow and from the arrow directly into your target, focused effectively on a very small point. With a slow arrow that is approaching off-axis to the target, you will have less energy total and inefficient energy transfer.
Something I didn't mention before is that arrows used in warfare are typically quite heavy, fired from high draw-weight bows, and have low static spine (less spine = less flexible arrow shaft). There were so many arrowheads used that it's impossible to make any generalized statements about those, but shafts for war had to be strong & shot at high speed to be effective. Low draw-weight bows like those used in the previous videos shoot best with low weight, high spine (more flexible) arrows, and the shots performed are all done at low speed for the bows that are used because they aren't fully drawn. None of that is conducive to getting an effective shot down range.
For a modern day, real life situation where the damage potential of a given bow & arrow is a serious consideration, we can look at hunting laws. Many states in the US have legal minimums for deer hunting with bows, most commonly for bow draw weight, but also for bow length, arrow weight, and arrowhead style, sharpness, and diameter. The absolute lowest bow draw weight requirement I have seen required by law for any state that has a requirement is 30lbs, and the arrows must have broadheads. Keep in mind, this is for shooting an unarmored, unclothed target, weighing the same as a healthy & average height adult woman, at close range with a razor-sharp cutting head fired from a fully drawn bow. In other words, better conditions than you'll ever get on a battlefield, and more powerful than what is demonstrated in these videos.
Lol only one comment to add to your amazing explanation.
Don't under sell live animals.
The average person does not want to be shooting a deer with a low poundage bow. 30 pounds might be the minimum, but like you'd be amazed at how much tracking is involved because people don't get in their lethal shot.
And boars..... They charge at you. A boar encounter would be the absolute worse.
So a dude with full plate armor... comming at you... You wouldn't want be caught alive with that trick shot bow.
There are a lot of hunting accidents documented in history. Now some of them are people falling off their horse, but others are people getting maulled by stags.
The air's drag on the fletching will steadily straighten the arrow's angle to match its flight path, while it changes that flight path, and will eventually put the head back in line with the shaft. That means, any curve that you impart to the arrow's flight will happen during the first few dozen yards. For shooting at a target behind cover, you could just shift over about 5 feet and get the same shot, WITHOUT losing 90% of your hitting power. Worse, you'd need to take several shots to get the bow angle and draw right for the range to target, otherwise it would curve too much or too little at that specific distance and miss, so you'd end up wasting 3 or 4 arrows to take one pathetic weak shot on target. Basically, it's a neat stage trick, but absolutely useless for a combat situation. The shooter in the video has had plenty of time to test and refine those techniques under controlled and unchanging conditions, but put him at some unknown distance to a target and he won't hit it on the first shot or two.
To put it bluntly, this is not something that was done historically in battle, and not something that needs to be included in the game, unless the game is supposed to be about elven archers and magical weapons.
To put it bluntly, this is not something that was done historically in battle, and not something that needs to be included in the game, unless the game is supposed to be about elven archers and magical weapons.
All true. While the minimums are as low as 30# you definitely run the risk of not getting a clean kill. As draw weight goes up, that risk goes down (to a point, because shot placement is still the deciding factor). Can it be done? Sure. Should it? My state allows deer hunting with any centerfire rifle or pistol cartridge, should I go hunting with a compact 9mm pistol? Hell no.wormydowg 说:
Honved 说:
In a similar vein, I believe the first arrow fired in the second video hits the first target, the one the archer is trying to shoot around. Even he says you have to practice the distance, angle, etc. for each and every shot before you can do it reliably. Perhaps someone who had done basically nothing but shoot bows since the age of 4 could reliably hit within the first three shots, but then you run into the problem of lower arrow speed, increased angle of impact, and all the other problems ya'll mentioned.
idk, I've seen people nagging Lars for a long time, yet all I see is talk and no actual "debunking". It'd be good if he started testing the effectiveness of his "trick-shots" against various kinds of protection, see what would be possible and what wouldn't hehehe
At any rate, I don't doubt many of the things he says, like how modern archery actually teaches to draw arrows wrongly. The whole crossing the arrow on the opposite side of the hand and blabla makes for a real mess when it comes to intuitive usage, and more often than not ancient tools were everything but counter-intuitive.
I've seen around some theories that archers would actually shoot from shorter distances while the long distance rain of arrows would be used much less often. Some talk around about the subject also sort of points out that Welsh and English longbow-men would be more focused on long distance slow firing rates while most would shoot almost at point blank (I'm exaggerating, medium range, like archers would walk with infantry and shoot in-between them, etc...) But idk, I've just read some theories...
At any rate, I don't doubt many of the things he says, like how modern archery actually teaches to draw arrows wrongly. The whole crossing the arrow on the opposite side of the hand and blabla makes for a real mess when it comes to intuitive usage, and more often than not ancient tools were everything but counter-intuitive.
I've seen around some theories that archers would actually shoot from shorter distances while the long distance rain of arrows would be used much less often. Some talk around about the subject also sort of points out that Welsh and English longbow-men would be more focused on long distance slow firing rates while most would shoot almost at point blank (I'm exaggerating, medium range, like archers would walk with infantry and shoot in-between them, etc...) But idk, I've just read some theories...
All I know is, I better not see arrows getting blocked by upraised fists.
Triune Impurity Rites 999 说:
Perk Taleworlds pls
Can we not? Even their most famous battles were won only after long and gruesome melees.Harmi 说:
Harmi 说:
Ancient Babylon and Assyria utilized archers in large numbers to shower an opposing force from a distance, which was somewhat effective against lightly armored or unarmored levy troops, not so well against well armored and shielded professionals. Many of those archers also carried spears or other melee weapons and became part of the regular fighting line as the armies closed. Chariots and horse archers, on the other hand, were more likely used for riding up fairly close to an enemy, releasing an arrow from 10-20 yards range, then riding off. It's not good for the archer's health if he's still holding a bow when the opposing army reaches him, but that's not nearly as much of a problem for mounted troops. Some skirmishers on foot were still willing and able to advance close to an opposing army's front line and deliver low-angle shots with enough force to be dangerous, and then run, and various specialists and techniques were used to counter them. There are also accounts of mixed bow and sling use, one arcing high angle fire to force the enemy to cover themselves from above, while the other advanced closer to take lower-angle directed shots, forcing them to lower their shields.
I would say that claiming the English longbow to be a completely new and unfair tactic would be completely wrong. Bows were used in combat since antiquity, and the French had already witnessed (and suffered from) the Welsh longbow (which is often mistakenly accredited to the English) when they first invaded the British Isles centuries before. The English (many of them formerly French nobles, and still technically vassals of the King of France) just fielded them in larger numbers, and utilized terrain to put the French knights at a disadvantage, to make up for the inferior numbers of their own knights. It wouldn't have worked if the French hadn't tried to outdo each other, arguing over who was to take the lead and glory for such a clearly easy victory, and then rush straight into the trap.
CaptainLee 说:Triune Impurity Rites 999 说:
Perk Taleworlds pls
Oh my Christ on the Cross
I hope it is possible, just so difficult that even most skilled people get shot at more than they block. Shields and armor are what protect you against arrows really well, swords don't.
Ranged weapons are something any army should always have. But they don't win the battle themselves. Even if your army is entirely focused on ranged combat, it still needs to close into melee sooner or later.
If ranged weapons in medieval era before gunpowder won battles, they were expections. And expectional stories often become more popular than average every day stuff.
I would like to see lot of, at least high tier, melee soldiers in most armies in Bannerlord being armed with basic ranged weapons. Some have war darts, some have slings, some have bows or throwing javelins. They should not cause many losses, but they would soften up the enemy a bit. And ofc melee soldiers should always loose to dedicated ranged soldiers in any ranged combat.
Not all heavy cavalry should have crossbow, but few of them. Say every 5th maybe, with far lower skills with it than dedicated ranged troops.
Don't double post, please. -Orion
Precisely. Ranged weapons by themselves don't win battles unless it is rare expection that then becomes so well known because it was something extraordinary. Ranged weapons can do somewhat little against soldiers who wear protection. But any arrow you shoot at them increases your chances of winning the melee fight. That is (one reason) why many Byzantine Cataphracts carried bows and even were said to have javelin which they would throw at enemy. War darts were also very common, basically being more advanced version of throwing rocks. And slings were propably quite common even among non-ranged units not because they were super effective, but because how incredibly easy it is to carry around and how plentiful ammunition is for it (even though professional/dedicated slingers did use shots which were more advanced than just rocks which you pick up anywhere).Do not look here 说:
Ranged weapons are something any army should always have. But they don't win the battle themselves. Even if your army is entirely focused on ranged combat, it still needs to close into melee sooner or later.
If ranged weapons in medieval era before gunpowder won battles, they were expections. And expectional stories often become more popular than average every day stuff.
I would like to see lot of, at least high tier, melee soldiers in most armies in Bannerlord being armed with basic ranged weapons. Some have war darts, some have slings, some have bows or throwing javelins. They should not cause many losses, but they would soften up the enemy a bit. And ofc melee soldiers should always loose to dedicated ranged soldiers in any ranged combat.
Not all heavy cavalry should have crossbow, but few of them. Say every 5th maybe, with far lower skills with it than dedicated ranged troops.
Don't double post, please. -Orion
I did like how in VC almost every melee soldier carried javelins of some sort. As you said, they could use them to soften up incoming troops or, like I did, wait until the enemy breaks, then let the javelins loose to net let anyone get away . No survivors!
. No survivors!
Like how you can counter melee attacks and couch lances with your firsts in warband?Triune Impurity Rites 999 说:
If you are really, really REALLY skilled, then you can definitely go all iron fist on someone with a sword in Warband.
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