Is Mythology the turth disguised as a Tale? or a Tale to disguise a Turth?

[Merlkir]

Just to give you a head's up, Al-Khidr of the Quran post-dates the Arthurian tales.  In fact, the Arthurian tales are older (in the earliest forms) than Islam.  So...if anything Al-Khidr is the Islamic representation of the Celtic-Christian Green Knight   (Not that I believe any link).

It's a question of how old the Gawain/Green Knight story is, imo it's one of the later courtly traditions.


Anyway, the guy definitely IS mad. His mom was a drug addict and he believes in Atlantis.

Also, Zeitgeist? Really? Don't believe that ****, the whole "Jesus is Horus/Buddha/everyone else.." thing is bullcrap.

edit: upon reading the chapter on page 40 - I can say he truly is just as mad as you. Certainly uses the same bull**** arguments and lack of any linguistic knowledge whatsoever. No sources to back many of his claims, waves thousands of years around a lot, but with no proof, lots of talk about ancient Turkic customs, again - no sources except to what he's heard...This guy is just like you. Very proud of his Ba.Ma, yet still believes there is some conspiracy he needs to expose. Uneducated (clearly, despite his Ba.Ma) in the matters he talks about, willing to accept anyone's word as truth if it fits his bull**** theory.

Congratulations, you may shake hands.

 

[AWdeV]

Congratulations, we may shake heads in stunned disbelief.

Fixed.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

True Merlkir, though I heard that the Green Knight might have had pre-Christian Celtic origins.  Unfortunately I don't have the book where I read that on hand, so I can't really comment more on it.

As for the other stuff....got to love the mystic/Atlantis-Lemuria-Thule believers.

 

[ancalimon]

Hızır is a central figure in Turkic-Altaic mythology. A couple of thousands years later we see him in Islam. According to Islam, he is the tutor of all the prophets expect Muhammed as Muhammed tutored him instead.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Hmm, Islam came about in the 600's....and you say this Hizir character is a couple thousand years earlier?  I think your warped perception of time and its relation amongst civilizations in history is a root to your misunderstanding of history....just like when you implied the Romans still believed in their pagan gods at the time of the fall of the empire, instead of being thoroughly Christian as they really were then.

Nothing is written about (and arguably very little known) the Turks/Altaic people in 1400 B.C.

 

[Allegro]

As a person interested in history of Altaic cultures, and a Turk, I have never ever heard of that Hızır guy. Prolly another made up story, like the most things he keeps presenting as elements of Tengriism. Actually very little is known about that religion and it surely isnt some deep philosophy like Buddhism or Zoroastrianism.

 

[Merlkir]

Funny thing, these re-inventions of history by the opressed are nothing new. During the hellenistic age, under the rule of the Ptolemaic dynasty, a very popular novel was written which said that the true father of Alexander the Great was the pharaoh Nectanebo - an Egyptian. So the great conqueror and hero was an Egyptian, not one of the horrible Greeks who occupied the land at the moment.

 

[ancalimon]

As a person interested in history of Altaic cultures, and a Turk, I have never ever heard of that Hızır guy. Prolly another made up story, like the most things he keeps presenting as elements of Tengriism. Actually very little is known about that religion and it surely isnt some deep philosophy like Buddhism or Zoroastrianism.

You have no idea about your culture Allegro. The people that educated you clearly didn't educate you about Turkic culture. Or maybe you only showed interest in cultures other than Turkic culture. Therefore you don't know enough about Turkic culture.
http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=en&source=hp&q=h%C4%B1z%C4%B1r&**=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=6f836ab86182e0ba

Clearly you don't know about the Celebration Of Spring which is called Hıdırellez:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%B1d%C4%B1rellez

I'm sure you even haven't heard of "Hızır Acil Servis". Do you know how to call an ambulance in Turkey? You call "Hızır Acil Servis"

Hızır reaches people in need and help them according to Turkic tradition and mythology.
So please stop lying and stop implying that I'm lying. I'm not making anything up. Go and ask an Alevi Turk who Hızır is, and he'll probably enlighten you. Go and ask a Turk living in Middle Asia and he'll probably enlighten you too.


You are comparing Tengrism with Buddhism and Zoroastrianism like Tengrism is a religion. It is not a religion, it is the observation and interpretation of nature. "Nature" here being things that people see and live. The first part of the documentary Zeitgeist talks about Tengrism calling it paganism and gives half true, half wrong information.

Tengrism started when the first person wanted to give a sound and/or shape using his body parts (tongue, arms legs, lips, etc...)  to something that existed in nature and thought.

Tengrism is not a religion. Simply because there is no underlying culture, or maybe that culture was destroyed. Tengrism is a thought.

Tengrism is the expression of "high" thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMJCDgLm8lY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8QOdbCEqw&feature=related

Gökhan Kırdar - Praying for Rain (ethnic song about a shaman calling rain):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvmQUK_xhl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQsuHz7C3Mc

Tengri is nature.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGa-3j2bMT0&feature=related

 

[Allegro]

You have no idea about your culture Allegro. The people that educated you clearly didn't educate you about Turkic culture. Or maybe you only showed interest in cultures other than Turkic culture. Therefore you don't know enough about Turkic culture.
http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=en&source=hp&q=h%C4%B1z%C4%B1r&**=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=6f836ab86182e0ba

Clearly you don't know about the Celebration Of Spring which is called Hıdırellez:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%B1d%C4%B1rellez

I'm sure you even haven't heard of "Hızır Acil Servis". Do you know how to call an ambulance in Turkey? You call "Hızır Acil Servis"
Hızır reaches people in need and help them according to Turkic tradition and mythology.
So please stop lying and stop implying that I'm lying. I'm not making anything up. Go and ask an Alevi Turk who Hızır is, and he'll probably enlighten you. Go and ask a Turk living in Middle Asia and he'll probably enlighten you too.

Thats a MESOPOTAMIAN festival you moron, its got nothing to do with Turkic culture. It's got roots in ancient Mesopotamian cultures and lived up to be an integral part of modern Abrahamic religions. I'm talking about a figure called Hızır in TURKIC CULTURE. Not Arabian prophets, not ambulance tags. There is no figure named Hızır in pre-Islamic Turkic culture and current one is not an element of solely Turkic culture, its overall Islamic. Period.

You are comparing Tengrism with Buddhism and Zoroastrianism like Tengrism is a religion. It is not a religion, it is the observation and interpretation of nature. "Nature" here being things that people see and live. The first part of the documentary Zeitgeist talks about Tengrism calling it paganism and gives half true, half wrong information.

Tengrism started when the first person wanted to give a sound and/or shape using his body parts (tongue, arms legs, lips, etc...)  to something that existed in nature and thought.

Tengrism is not a religion. Simply because there is no underlying culture, or maybe that culture was destroyed. Tengrism is a thought.

Tengrism is the expression of "high" thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMJCDgLm8lY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl8QOdbCEqw&feature=related

Gökhan Kırdar - Praying for Rain (ethnic song about a shaman calling rain):  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvmQUK_xhl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQsuHz7C3Mc

Tengri is nature.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGa-3j2bMT0&feature=related

I've stated this hundreds of times to you so far yet you insist on being the ignorant fool you are; you obviously dont know a **** about what religion is. Religion is an interpretation of nature and life. And Zeitgeist doesnt mention **** about Tengriism, its your paranoid mind relating things to Turks and Tengriism. When one talks about Sumers, he's basically talking about Turks to you.

 

[ancalimon]

You have no idea about your culture Allegro. The people that educated you clearly didn't educate you about Turkic culture. Or maybe you only showed interest in cultures other than Turkic culture. Therefore you don't know enough about Turkic culture.
http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=en&source=hp&q=h%C4%B1z%C4%B1r&**=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=6f836ab86182e0ba

Clearly you don't know about the Celebration Of Spring which is called Hıdırellez:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%B1d%C4%B1rellez

I'm sure you even haven't heard of "Hızır Acil Servis". Do you know how to call an ambulance in Turkey? You call "Hızır Acil Servis"
Hızır reaches people in need and help them according to Turkic tradition and mythology.
So please stop lying and stop implying that I'm lying. I'm not making anything up. Go and ask an Alevi Turk who Hızır is, and he'll probably enlighten you. Go and ask a Turk living in Middle Asia and he'll probably enlighten you too.

Thats a MESOPOTAMIAN festival you moron, its got nothing to do with Turkic culture. It's got roots in ancient Mesopotamian cultures and lived up to be an integral part of modern Abrahamic religions. I'm talking about a figure called Hızır in TURKIC CULTURE. Not Arabian prophets, not ambulance tags. There is no figure named Hızır in pre-Islamic Turkic culture and current one is not an element of solely Turkic culture, its overall Islamic. Period.

http://www.erenlerforum.org/erenler/showthread.php?t=12780
Sorry couldn't find an English source. Read the part named: Oğuz Kağan Destanı ve Hızır Anlayışı.
Also I paid special attention to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn

Dhul-Qarnayn (Arabic ذو القرنين ḏū al-qarnayn, IPA: [ðuːlqarˈnajn]), literally "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West.

I'm afraid this once again brings Odin to my mind. And I won't even start to show you the similarities of several mythological Gods and/or leaders.

Islam was brought to Arabs, and it had a different effect due to their underlying culture.
Islam was brought to Turks, and it had a different effect due to their underlying culture.

 

[Archonsod]

Clearly the Arabs are actually Turks though, they've got two 'A's in there and everything!

 

[ancalimon]

Clearly the Arabs are actually Turks though, they've got two 'A's in there and everything!

I reject the concepts of ethnicity and race. I always think that a group of people who call themselves "..." contain within themselves all kinds of people.

But I suspect every religion that is Semitic and every religion that is not Semitic in the world have the philosophy of Tengrism "in their roots".

I think people "wanted to be like" Turks throughout history and they became Turks when Turks had outstanding culture and power "once upon a time". That's how many different nations in the world have the upper identity called "TUR". It is also perfectly possible to lose the TURK upper identity, and many different nations lost it.

Pay special attention to what I try to tell you with "wanted to be like"

What is the upper identity of people living in the United States? Why do they speak English? What will happen to them when United States becomes Divided States? Will they have the same upper identity in 4000 years?

 

[Archonsod]

They'll be Turkish obviously. Americans, two 'A's see. In fact you could probably form it into several words - A Meri Can. So all we need is the entymology for Meri and Can to prove it's Turkish and we're sorted.

 

[ares007]

In support of your point, there is mythology that Davy Crocket once shot a rock which split the bullet causing the two halves to ricochet and simultaneously hit a cougar and a brown bear in between the eyes killing both of them. That is the truth disguised as a tale definitely.

 

[Kleidophoros]

They'll be Turkish obviously. Americans, two 'A's see. In fact you could probably form it into several words - A Meri Can. So all we need is the entymology for Meri and Can to prove it's Turkish and we're sorted.

ololololol

It's AM ER(I) CAN
AM means *****
ER is soldier, men
Can is life, human
so clearly america is where turkish men went for some *****.

 

[Merlkir]

Dhul-Qarnayn (Arabic ذو القرنين ḏū al-qarnayn, IPA: [ðuːlqarˈnajn]), literally "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West.

I'm afraid this once again brings Odin to my mind. And I won't even start to show you the similarities of several mythological Gods and/or leaders.

Yeah, because Odin clearly has horns. Oh wait...

The Horned One is a very widespread eastern name for Alexander the Great. He is talked about in the Quran. So, what does he have to do with Turks, Hizir or Odin?

 

[Allegro]

You have no idea about your culture Allegro. The people that educated you clearly didn't educate you about Turkic culture. Or maybe you only showed interest in cultures other than Turkic culture. Therefore you don't know enough about Turkic culture.
http://www.google.com.tr/#hl=en&source=hp&q=h%C4%B1z%C4%B1r&**=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=6f836ab86182e0ba

Clearly you don't know about the Celebration Of Spring which is called Hıdırellez:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%B1d%C4%B1rellez

I'm sure you even haven't heard of "Hızır Acil Servis". Do you know how to call an ambulance in Turkey? You call "Hızır Acil Servis"
Hızır reaches people in need and help them according to Turkic tradition and mythology.
So please stop lying and stop implying that I'm lying. I'm not making anything up. Go and ask an Alevi Turk who Hızır is, and he'll probably enlighten you. Go and ask a Turk living in Middle Asia and he'll probably enlighten you too.

Thats a MESOPOTAMIAN festival you moron, its got nothing to do with Turkic culture. It's got roots in ancient Mesopotamian cultures and lived up to be an integral part of modern Abrahamic religions. I'm talking about a figure called Hızır in TURKIC CULTURE. Not Arabian prophets, not ambulance tags. There is no figure named Hızır in pre-Islamic Turkic culture and current one is not an element of solely Turkic culture, its overall Islamic. Period.

http://www.erenlerforum.org/erenler/showthread.php?t=12780
Sorry couldn't find an English source. Read the part named: Oğuz Kağan Destanı ve Hızır Anlayışı.
Also I paid special attention to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn

Dhul-Qarnayn (Arabic ذو القرنين ḏū al-qarnayn, IPA: [ðuːlqarˈnajn]), literally "He of the Two Horns", is a figure mentioned in the Qur'an, the sacred scripture of Islam, where he is described as a great and righteous ruler who built a long wall that keeps Gog and Magog from attacking the people of the West.

I'm afraid this once again brings Odin to my mind. And I won't even start to show you the similarities of several mythological Gods and/or leaders.

Islam was brought to Arabs, and it had a different effect due to their underlying culture.
Islam was brought to Turks, and it had a different effect due to their underlying culture.

And what am I supposed to get from that article? Even though it has a biased point of way and implies Oğuz Kağan might have been a prophet sent by Allah, it clearly states that HE WAS NOT THE GUY NAMED HIZIR. Hızır-İlyas belief has deep roots in Mesopotamia, going back till Sumerians.

 

[Merlkir]

Then it's clear, Sumerians were Turks, as shown many times before by Ancalimon.

 

[ancalimon]

http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Cr-Dr/Dionysus.html

Background and Origins.  Dionysus did not start out as a Greek god. His  cult  had its roots in Thrace (north of Greece), in Phrygia (in modern Turkey), or possibly on the island of Crete. Many Greek  city-states  at first rejected the cult of Dionysus because of its foreign origins and its wild, drunken  rituals.  When the cult first arrived in Rome, worshipers held their celebrations in secret. However, in both Greece and Rome, the cult of Dionysus overcame resistance and gained many followers.

Read more: Dionysus - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, Greek, god, story, legend, names, ancient, tree, famous, animal, world, Roman, life, king http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Cr-Dr/Dionysus.html#ixzz0ptpN39TT
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http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Thor.html

Thor's treasures also included a magical belt that doubled his strength whenever he wore it and a pair of goats, Tanngniost and Tanngrisni (both "Toothgnashers"), that pulled his chariot across the sky. Whenever he was overcome with hunger, Thor would devour his goats, only to return them to life with Mjollnir.

Read more: Thor - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, god, ancient, norse, world, life, king, people, evil, strength http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Thor.html#ixzz0ptprRE8v

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http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Thoth.html

Thoth played a key role in the Egyptian story of the afterlife. Known to be fair and impartial, Thoth judged the souls of the dead by weighing their hearts against a feather that represented truth. After recording the results, he told Osiris, ruler of the  underworld,  whether the individual had led a just life. In works of art, Thoth appears as either a human with the head of an ibis—a bird with a long, curved bill—or a baboon that supports the moon on its head.

Read more: Thoth - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, god, story, legend, ancient, life http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Thoth.html#ixzz0ptq9lRJ6

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http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Tiamat.html

In the Babylonian creation story called the  Enuma Elish,  Tiamat was a  primeval  goddess of salt waters and  chaos.  At the beginning of the universe, she and Apsu, the spirit of fresh waters, gave birth to all the gods. Tiamat's son Ea soon challenged and killed Apsu, but he could not defeat Tiamat. Ea then enlisted the help of his son Marduk, who rode out in a chariot to do battle with Tiamat in the form of a dragon. As Marduk approached, Tiamat opened her mouth to swallow him. But Marduk threw a storm into Tiamat's mouth, which prevented her from closing it. Then he killed her by shooting an arrow into her belly. After cutting Tiamat's body into pieces, Marduk used them to create the heavens and the earth.

Read more: Tiamat - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, story, names, creation http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sp-Tl/Tiamat.html#ixzz0ptqfpTDr

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Tengrism

Tengrism is not a religion. It's more like "the way it is"

There is nothing unholy or bad in the world according to this philosophy. This is very important to understand, and this is the most difficult concept to comprehend for cultures that have a thing called "Satan" in their culture. Things that look bad actually exists for a good purpose in Tengrism (this purpse is the will of Tengri which you can call fate).
The Yen Yang according to Chinese is not equal. The Yen part is unholy and feminine while the Yang part is holy and masculine (Chinese think their right shoulder is holy and left shoulder is unholy, male is superior to female). But according to Tengrism, both parts are holy in concept. In Turkic philosophy nothing in the universe can be "lakutsi (not holy, unholy). There is no translation of the word unholy into any Turkic dialect, because there no such a concept called male being superior to woman. Yen part is holy and feminine and calm and wise (İL BİLİCİ), Yang part is holy and masculine and angry and fighter (İL BESLEYİCİ)

İL: This is translated to English as "Social Peace and Balance"

(AL): This is hand for Turkic. Raising and showing your hand means peace. That's were it comes from. The L sound.

İL BİLİCİ: The wisdom of Social Peace and Balance (feminine people staying home and deciding how to rule families, becoming bards, philosophers)
İL BESLEYİCİ: The feeder of Social Peace and Balance (masculine people herding flock, fighting, conquering, pillaging and protecting people)

The Turks called the world they lived on "Jön, Acun (Orta Dünya) meaning "Middle Earth" in English. (I don't think it has anything to do with Lord Of The rings)

But after sometime, somehow the Chinese culture overpowered the Turkic culture and dualism came to Turkic culture. People divided and some choose the powers of Underworld, other choose the powers of Overworld.  And things got complicated.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Ancalimon, seriously, the whole first part of your last post was unnecessary:

Dionysus- It is well established that it was a foreign deity that migrated to Greek religion.

Thor-No comment.

Thoth- No Comment.

.....What does any of this have to do with what we are talking about?  What random crap.

As for Tengrism being "How it is" and not a religion....all religions are, to themselves, "How it is" and philosophies.  Tengrism is no different.

Also, Middle Earth in the LOTR context is from the Germanic mythos.  Don't even start implying that the Germanics were influenced by the Turks.  In fact, that whole Tolkien mythology is based off of Germanic mythology....Dwarves, Elves, Middle Earth, etc.  Not surprising since Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-Saxon history at Oxford.