Is Mythology the turth disguised as a Tale? or a Tale to disguise a Turth?

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Archonsod

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Kleidophoros said:
It doesn't work Archonsod;
Turkic language existed for few million years in form of tamgas and cave drawings.
No, Proto-Turk existed for a while, and there was an earlier Altaic form, Turkish itself has only been around since the 8th century AD though, and it wasn't till the 11th century it was spoken anywhere but Mongolia. Given the modern form of the Mahabharata was written circa 300 BC in Sanskrit, which is an indo-European language and not an Altaic one, it's a bit silly to start thinking the etymology is in any way related. In fact, given Sanskrit is the oldest language that we know of, it would be far more likely that the Turkic words were borrowing from Sanskrit than the other way around (and indeed, given Sanskrit managed to spread not only over Asia but also Europe, not entirely surprising). It'd be a bit like me saying the French were actually English because of the similarity between "bif" and "beef".
 

ancalimon

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Archonsod said:
Given Turks didn't exist until around 300 AD, it would be a bit of a stretch to have them wandering into India in 1000 BC.
No sir, Turks didn't come to this world from space. Turks are not aliens. You live in a dream world, wake up. Turks existed well before 300AD. Just like Seljuks didn't call themselves Turks but Selçuklar, Scythians didn't call themselves Turks but Saka.

Turks are not really a mistery of this world like scientists claim. Middle Asia is not a mysterious land. It is deemed mysterious because Turks are condemned.

Just like Europeans call their ancestors language Proto-Indo-European, I have the right to call my ancestors language Proto-Turkic.

Archonsod said:
Kleidophoros said:
It doesn't work Archonsod;
Turkic language existed for few million years in form of tamgas and cave drawings.
No, Proto-Turk existed for a while, and there was an earlier Altaic form, Turkish itself has only been around since the 8th century AD though, and it wasn't till the 11th century it was spoken anywhere but Mongolia. Given the modern form of the Mahabharata was written circa 300 BC in Sanskrit, which is an indo-European language and not an Altaic one, it's a bit silly to start thinking the etymology is in any way related. In fact, given Sanskrit is the oldest language that we know of, it would be far more likely that the Turkic words were borrowing from Sanskrit than the other way around (and indeed, given Sanskrit managed to spread not only over Asia but also Europe, not entirely surprising). It'd be a bit like me saying the French were actually English because of the similarity between "bif" and "beef".
I'm not even talking about Turkish people. Turkish is a word made up by Europeans to tell us that we are not really Turks but we belong to a different race. They don't accept it when we call ourselves Turks, they say; "no you are Turk"ish" because the Turks that invaded your lands made you Turks". I say no we don't believe in race. We are not a Turk race but we are just a Turk culture. "Turkish" didn't exist during 8th century. The term was created on the last century.

Let me make myself clear. Turks had been migrating since the climate change. They didn't start migrating during 8th century. and to migrate through the harsh lands of Asia, these people must have had reached a superior technology and a culture. To reach a superior technology and culture, their lands must have been like a heaven before the climate change. Scientists tell us about this, ancient books tell us about these.

There were seas like these even during last century: http://www.orexca.com/aral_sea.shtml
Climate is still changing.
Nearly all of these lands were once a huge sea: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/38479/544/The-Tien-Shan-mountain-range-and-the-Takla-Makan-Desert

Turks were victims of a huge cataclysm. They packed and migrated and created new civilizations wherever they went, together with the local population of those lands. These people changed and wave after wave, Turks migrated. After a while the Turks that migrated thousands of years before (that would be me and I was probably a savage back then, while the new comers were barbarians) the last wave of Turks, didn't want the last of the refuges in 1071, there was a war and the East Roman army switched sides and joined Turks because they spoke the same language with them. That's how Turks became rulers of Anatolia once again. This makes Greeks and Turks cousins. They created East Roman civilization together and they were savages. But that wasn't the first known "real" civilization. Because the there was the Turkic civilization in Middle Asia before them and probably just another one before them as well.

This is not rocket science. This is what happened. No need to call all these nations names.
 

Archonsod

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ancalimon said:
No sir, Turks didn't come to this world from space. Turks are not aliens. You live in a dream world, wake up. Turks existed well before 300AD. Just like Seljuks didn't call themselves Turks but Selçuklar, Scythians didn't call themselves Turks but Saka.
Bollocks. Turkish DNA is largely a mixture of European and Near East haplogroups. The word itself not being used prior to the 6th century AD to describe the mixture of peoples living in Anatolia.
Turks are not really a mistery of this world like scientists claim. Middle Asia is not a mysterious land. It is deemed mysterious because Turks are condemned.
Condemned by who? Everyone outside of the neighbours stopped giving a **** about Turkey after the Ottoman Empire collapsed.
I'm not even talking about Turkish people. Turkish is a word made up by Europeans to tell us that we are not really Turks but we belong to a different race.
Funny, the Turkish genome is 64% European.
and to migrate through the harsh lands of Asia, these people must have had reached a superior technology and a culture.
Harsh lands? That would be why the most populous nations of the world actually live there then, right?
To reach a superior technology and culture, their lands must have been like a heaven before the climate change.
Or they could have perhaps not reached a superior technology and culture. Like everyone else in the area?
Turks were victims of a huge cataclysm. They packed and migrated and created new civilizations wherever they went, together with the local population of those lands.
No they didn't, they originated in Northern Mongolia as a wandering nomadic group, as with most Steppe tribes. They later conquered the people of Anatolia and imposed themselves as an elite ruling class.
This is not rocket science. This is what happened. No need to call all these nations names.
This is what happened where, in your game of Civ or something? Because the archeology and history certainly tell a somewhat different story. But I guess it's all a big conspiracy to condemn the Turks or something. Of course, given the superiority of the Turks I guess the only people who could mastermind such an effective and wide-ranging conspiracy would be Turkish, right?
 

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ancalimon said:
I'm not even talking about Turkish people. Turkish is a word made up by Europeans to tell us that we are not really Turks but we belong to a different race.
:lol:
 

ancalimon

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By the way Turkic tamgas are older then Scandinavian runes.

http://www.guardiansofdarkness.com/GoD/god-turanians.html

These are the runes used by Toba Turks who ruled during 386-581 AD



Same as the Orkhon script. Surprise? I don't think so.

These Turks didn't even wander off from China. they are now part of Chinese culture. I wonder who brought the runes to Scandinavians? Oh it was Odin. I forgot.

Check this as this has some information about why I have suspicions about Anatolia being a Turanian nation speaking a Turkic language much much before Seljucks arrived. (you should also know about Sumerian-Altaic language relationship)

SUMERIA, AND THE TURANIAN PEOPLES INCLUDING PELASGIANS
http://www.satanicreds.org/satanicreds/s-t-p.html

PS: Allegro, you asked me that you never seen the AT tamga. Look at t1. That's one depiction of the AT tamga.
The square is the horse (AT). The arrow is the man (OQ)
t1 also means (ascend) to be thrown to Tengri (God) or  (descend) to be thrown to world.  (aşandı?, düşendi?  :lol: )

I think Zeus might be related to Z (OZ) (OZ: shortly; essence of soul)

Here are the Tur nations:
http://www.hunmagyar.org/turan/turan.html
 

ancalimon

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DameGreyWulf said:
Clearly a troll, guys.
How come? I'm just sharing my ideas in the off topic area of the forum on a topic I created. I don't even throw insults like some other people here.
 

Kleidophoros

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ancalimon said:
and to migrate through the harsh lands of Asia, these people must have had reached a superior technology and a culture.
:lol:
Sure, you need superior technology to travel across a half-desert.

Swadius said:
I don't mind a bit of trolling now and then, but at least put some effort in to make it good :???: , or make it in such a way that Poe's law cannot be invoked :Þ.
Assuming you are talking to me, what's funny about what i wrote it that it's pretty close to what the dude thinks. He claims Turks invented writing in 16.000 B.C.
 

ancalimon

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Kleidophoros said:
ancalimon said:
and to migrate through the harsh lands of Asia, these people must have had reached a superior technology and a culture.
:lol:
Sure, you need superior technology to travel across a half-desert.

Swadius said:
I don't mind a bit of trolling now and then, but at least put some effort in to make it good :???: , or make it in such a way that Poe's law cannot be invoked :Þ.
Assuming you are talking to me, what's funny about what i wrote it that it's pretty close to what the dude thinks. He claims Turks invented writing in 16.000 B.C.
Actually you need superior technology, considering other people in the world are not widely using horses, and wheeled homes.
Also you cannot travel long range without having iron accessories with horse. If you are traveling deserts and steppes that's extra important.

If you mean Kazım Mirşan, no actually he never says that. He simply says that Turks had been living in Anatolia for nearly 10000 years using different names for themselves. This makes Sumerian alphabet a modern Turkic alphabet. He simply tried to shed light on a dark page in human history. Also some of his findings probably ended the Indo-European Language theory. History is in a mess right now.

This is why we can't find absolutely Turkic writings.



3. MOBILE LIFESTYLE OF TURKISH PEOPLES

Due to climatic and geographic conditions of Central Asia, Turkish peoples had developed a mobile lifestyle which was best suited to their economic requirements in the steppes of Central Asia. During winters, they would live a sedentary life in "kishlak" areas, their wintering grounds where villages were made of "yurts", i.e., tents that were made of felts and during summers, they would go to "yaylak", i.e., the higher grounds where they would find cooler and agreeable weather conditions as well as good grazing grounds for their animal herds. They had to be able to move fast from place to place and for that reason they had to be light in most of their belongings. Even the representations of their sacred gods had to be on light carryable objects. Their flags, standards, shields, tents, carpets, cloths, wood carvings, and even their shamanic costumes and drums were used as medium for such purposes.

Flags and standards were sacred objects to the Turkish peoples since these emblems represented their gods, kings, people and homelands in Central Asia or in their new homelands. For example, in Oguz Epic writings, Oguz Qaghan declares: "Sun is standard and sky is royal tent", [IK, p. 136]. In this declaration there is the link between Turkish flag and the Sun as a star in the heavens and as the sun-god of shamanism. Therefore, these standards and flags required utmost respect and dignity by Turkish peoples at all times.

In war times, Turkish peoples' flags and war standards would not only reveal their identity to the opposing sides, but would also bring along the representations of their gods to give them courage and moral help needed in their struggle with their enemies. One unfortunate aspect of this kind of medium, from the point of view of modern man, was that these objects were easily destroyed in time by environmental conditions. Hence, they could not be historical message carriers from past into the present. Additionally, the history of ancient Turkish peoples most often was relayed into the future in a more oral form than written. Anything written on heavy durable media could not be readily transported from place to place. It was simply not practical.
 

ancalimon

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Kleidophoros said:
What timeframe are we talking about? Because people were using horses to travel and they had iron accessories for them. And using wheeled homes is not superior technology man :lol: people were building all sorts of ****s.

Okay sorry, 10.000 B.C.
Trying to shed light on a dark page of history doesn't really work when you are not giving any actual proof you know. His findings didn't do ****, i can't believe you are taking him serious cuz noone really does.
He was invited to European History Congress :smile:  I don't actually believe him. But I don't believe in Eurocentric history either because they corrupted truth so much. Actually it won't really change anything in reality. What if they were Turks or not. I don't really care.

This guys thinks mostly the same with me.
http://www.guardiansofdarkness.com/GoD/god-turanians.html

Some of the Silly Myths:

Now, all of this following is pure, unmitigated rubbish and if any such vile tripe was written up in stories about BLACK people - the NAACP would never let anyone forget it.  I doubt the books would ever see publication today. Note how the Turanians are equated with demons or evil deeds.  Pure racism. 

According to the so-called "pygmy" theory, folk memories of Turanian peoples account for the European folklore concerning fairies, elves, dwarfs, etc. By some post-Blavatsky Theosophists, the name was given to the fourth Sub-race of the fourth Root Race.  Note, she's rull of rubbish and a supreme distorter of Vajrayana. However, it is possible that the idea of the bogeyman came from the Tatar word Boga and that the idea of an ogre came from the name of a Turkic tribe called Uygur.  Europeans were terrified of the Tatars. These may be folk memories in Western Europe, but in Eastern Europe, even in the 19th century, they never forgot the war tactics and terror that Tatar conquerers brought. They didn't have to invent stupid myths.  They knew exactly who these Turanians were.

The kingdom had been through dangerous and difficult times,  when powerful enemies like the Prince of the Turanians, leagued with wicked magicians, had gone up against the Persians in war. But now that splendid hero, Zal, mightiest of the warriors of the world, had broken the strength of the  Turanians; the old Shah, Kaikobad, had gone into Paradise; and young Prince Kaikooz ascended to the Throne of Thrones as the twelfth Shah of the Persians, and all his people  cheered his name. Lin Carter, "Rustum Against the City of Demons" (after Firdausi, The Shah Namah, mentioned before)  Note, Lin Carter wrote fiction and all of this is fiction.  Take it instead from the Semitic Book of Esther, part of the Jewish Bible, and one gets the idea that the Persians were dualist-minded, persecutory scum that deserved to be massacred.

The very title of Tur, which they give to their supreme magistrate, indicates theft from a tongue akin to the Turanian. Edward Bulwer-Lytton, "The Coming Race"

A curious Basque story shows that among this strange Turanian people, cut off by such a flood of Aryan nations from any other members of its family, the same superstition remains. Sabine Baring-Gould, "The Book of Werewolves: Being an Account of a Terrible Superstition.  Note that Basques are not Turanian people at all, not even related to them.

The appropriate definition of the name "Turanian" is: any family that ethnologists know nothing about. H.P. Blavatsky, note to "Isis Unveiled: A Master-Key to the  Mysteries of Ancient and Modern Science and Theology."  Note that she is an idiot that didn't know what Uralic and Altaic were.

The occult doctrine admits of no such divisions as the Aryan and the Semite, accepting even the Turanian with ample reservations. H.P. Blavatsky, "The Secret Doctrine: The Synthesis of Science, Religion, and Philosophy."  Note that occult divisions of the human races are as worthless as Biblical divisions.  Note that Blavatsky is stuck in the Aryan versus Semite nonsense, despite what some may claim of her, it's clear.

Granting that the Turanian races were typified by the dwarfs (Dwergar), and that a dark, round-headed, and dwarfish race was driven northward by the fair-faced Scandinavians, or Æsir, the gods being like unto men, there still exists neither in history nor any other scientific work any  anthropological proof whatever of the existence in time or space of a race of giants. H.P. Blavatsky, "The Secret Doctrine: The Synthesis of Science, Religion, and Philosophy."  Note that the Turarnian races were typified as fearsome warriors against whom the European Christians prayed to their God to protect them from.  Again, this is neo-mythological nonsense - it doesn't even have a basis in real mythology of old.  Note that in one story of Odin, he came from the "Land of the Turks" and taught these Scandinavians the runes. That would definitely explain why their later runes are the same as the much older Turkic runes from Orkhon!

This was the Shaman. He seems to have had a  Tartar-Mongol-mongrel-Turanian origin, somewhere in Central Asia, and to have spread with his magic drum, and songs, and stinking smoke, exorcising his fiends all over the face of  the earth. Charles Godfrey Leland, "Gypsy Sorcery and Fortune Telling."  Note that one might come to that conclusion about any Shamanism done by anyone.  Yes, Turanians were Shaman, some still are.  Today, many of them are Islamic. But the racist lingo inherent in this paragraph is nonsense.

"It is a very ancient ceremony," said the priest; "probably Persian, like the baptismal form, although, for that matter, we can never dig deep enough for the roots of these things.  They all turn up Turanian if we probe far enough." Harold Frederic, "The Damnation of Theron Ware; or, Illumination."

"Philologists seem to be fast arriving at the view that when the whole earth was of "one language and of one speech" it was a primitive monosyllabic or Turanian tongue." Note that no Turanian language is or ever was monosyllabic.  Chinese is monosyllabic.  "The word Turanian is most indefinite, for it is taken to include the small, dark, long-headed Dravidian race of India, which penetrated Britain before the Aryan Celt and of which the Basques of Spain are a survival; the long-headed white race of Scandinavian hunters; and the white, broad-headed Mongoloid, whom we chiefly term proto-Aryan, as an early branch of the Aryan race; a race which in prehistoric times spread from Lapland to Babylon, and from India to Egypt and Europe. John Yarker, "The Arcane Schools, a Review of Their Origin and Antiquity, with a History of Freemasonry and Its  Relation to the Theosophic, Scientific, and Philosophic  Mysteries."  Note, more rubbish before they could test mtDNA and nuclear DNA to show that humans spread all over from Africa.  Freemasonry has nothing to do with Theosophy.

A further and rather terrible development of the Turanian times must still be referred to. With the practice of sorcery many of the inhabitants had, of course, become aware of the existence of powerful elementals - creatures who had been called into being, or at least animated by their own powerful wills, which being directed towards maleficent ends, naturally produced elementals of power and malignity. So degraded had then become man's feelings of reverence and worship, that they actually began to adore these  semi-conscious creations of their own malignant thought. The ritual with which these beings were worshipped was bloodstained from the very start, and of course every sacrifice offered at their shrines gave vitality and  persistence to these vampire-like creations — so much so, that even to the present day in various parts of the world, the elementals formed by the powerful will of these old Atlantean sorcerers still continue to exact their tribute from unoffending village communities. W. Scott-Elliot, "Legends of Atlantis and the Lost Lemuria."  Note: this is pure fiction.

"And the hint came of the old name of fairies, 'the little people,' and the very probable belief that they represent a tradition of the prehistoric Turanian inhabitants of the country, who were cave dwellers: and then I realized with a shock that I was looking for a being under four feet in  height, accustomed to live in darkness, possessing stone instruments, and familiar with the Mongolian cast of features!" Arthur Machen, "The Shining Pyramid"  Note: this is pure fiction.

But as I idly scanned the paragraph, a flash of thought passed through me with the violence of an electric shock:  what if the obscure and horrible race of the hills still survived, still remained haunting the wild places and barren hills, and now and then repeating the evil of Gothic legend,  unchanged and unchangeable as the Turanian Shelta, or the Basques of Spain? Arthur Machen, "Novel of the Black Seal" in The Three Impostors; or, The Transmutations  Note: this is also fiction.

Though everybody called them gipsies, they were in reality Turanian metal-workers, degenerated into wandering tinkers; their ancestors had fashioned the bronze battle-axes, and they mended pots and kettles. Arthur Machen, "The Turanians" in Ornaments of Jade  Note: some of the people in Eurasia that are called Gypsies are Turanians, or mixed with Turanans or mixed with Slavic people and they live the Gypsy way of life - but the Gypsies do not have a Turanian origin themselves.  Gypsies originate in India. Note also that this is pure fiction.

M. Pineau, very properly, interprets these dwarfs to mean the aboriginal Turanian race which inhabited Europe before the coming of the Aryans, and passes on, without dwelling on the subject. Arthur Machen, "Folklore and Legends of the North"  Note, this is also fiction. Turanians may have populated more southerly parts of Eurasia as research into Pelasgians and Sumerians, Etruscans and even Scythians (Saka Turks) seems to now show.  However, the Turanians would not be called "dwarfs" by the Indo-Europeans.  If anything, they'd be called horsemen or maybe even Centaurs in myth, as the Greeks called the Pelasgians.

That these hellish vestiges of old Turanian-Asiatic magic and fertility-cults were even now wholly dead he could not for a moment suppose, and he frequently wondered how much older and how much blacker than the very worst of the muttered tales some of them might really be. H.P. Lovecraft, "The Horror at Red Hook"  Since Turanians were Shamanistic either until recent times or presently (some are still Shaman), it is fair to see why a puritanical, race-conscious, Victorian person like Lovecraft would stick this into his fiction. 

"They are known variously as Turanians, Picts, Mediterraneans, and Garlic Eaters. A race of small dark people, traces of their type may be found in primitive sections of Europe and Asia today, among the Basques of Spain, the Scotch of Galloway, and the Lapps." Robert E. Howard, "The Little People"  Note, pure fiction and inaccurate.  Mediterraneans and Picts are not Turanians.  Turanians were always meat eating people that also used dairy from any milk producing animal, including the horse.

Of note, the only "small, dwarfish, dark" people that might have actually been in Europe by way of Egypt, could have been the African Pygmies. Egyptians kept some of them as pets.
 

Kleidophoros

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Kleidophoros said:
What timeframe are we talking about? Because people were using horses to travel and they had iron accessories for them. And using wheeled homes is not superior technology man :lol: people were building all sorts of ****s.

Okay sorry, 10.000 B.C.
Trying to shed light on a dark page of history doesn't really work when you are not giving any actual proof you know. His findings didn't do ****, i can't believe you are taking him serious cuz noone really does.

Oh yeah, edited teh post once again...make your mind before posting man, its annoying.

Writing **** on heavy durable media and marking those spots would be practical.  You know "Anything written on heavy durable media could not be readily transported from place to place. It was simply not practical." doesn't prove nothing; "we can't find **** but they were nomadic, they didn't carry heavy stuff with them but we are pretty sure they invented writing 10.000 years ago."
Some of the Silly Myths:
I really don't know about the others but Lovecraft and Robert E Howard writes fiction.  :neutral:

Your copy-pasting is starting to piss me off really.


ancalimon said:
He was invited to European History Congress :smile:
ı don't really care where he was invited. I don't see his theories being accepted by anyone.
 

ancalimon

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Kleidophoros said:
Kleidophoros said:
What timeframe are we talking about? Because people were using horses to travel and they had iron accessories for them. And using wheeled homes is not superior technology man :lol: people were building all sorts of ****s.

Okay sorry, 10.000 B.C.
Trying to shed light on a dark page of history doesn't really work when you are not giving any actual proof you know. His findings didn't do ****, i can't believe you are taking him serious cuz noone really does.

Oh yeah, edited teh post once again...make your mind before posting man, its annoying.

Writing **** on heavy durable media and marking those spots would be practical.  You know "Anything written on heavy durable media could not be readily transported from place to place. It was simply not practical." doesn't prove nothing; "we can't find **** but they were nomadic, they didn't carry heavy stuff with them but we are pretty sure they invented writing 10.000 years ago."
Some of the Silly Myths:
I really don't know about the others but Lovecraft and Robert E Howard writes fiction.  :neutral:

Your copy-pasting is starting to piss me off really.


ancalimon said:
He was invited to European History Congress :smile:
ı don't really care where he was invited. I don't see his theories being accepted by anyone.
(Tolkien collected myths and combined them into a different myth) I just showed some of the myths in our world. Reading is good, you always get new things. (I especially like to read things I disagree with as these kinds of books usually fixes faults in my way of thinking)

Are you serious?! Who would accept his theories? Europeans have been trying to prove the opposite of his ideas for more than a 100 years and they have gone a long way, and guess what? every single archeological evidence is linked to Indo-European, even Turkic kurgans.
 

Kleidophoros

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You can't blame them with "pure fiction and inaccurate" when they write fiction :lol:

I would say Europeans are ready to accept his theories seeing how "He was invited to European History Congress :smile:"
 

ancalimon

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Kleidophoros said:
You can't blame them with "pure fiction and inaccurate" when they write fiction :lol:

I would say Europeans are ready to accept his theories seeing how "He was invited to European History Congress :smile:"
They accepted his ideas, as they couldn't find the things he did, they didn't have the necessary knowledge. He is extremely intelligent, eccentric and probably stubborn. They probably will make use of his findings.

But this doesn't necessarily mean they will accept and announce that all of them had been wrong all along.
 

Kleidophoros

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ancalimon said:
  Are you serious?! Who would accept his theories? Europeans have been  trying to prove the opposite of his ideas for more than a 100 years and  they have gone a long way, and guess what? every single archeological  evidence is linked to Indo-European, even Turkic kurgans.
 
ancalimon said:
They accepted his ideas, as they couldn't find the things he did. He is extremely intelligent, eccentric and probably stubborn. They probably will make use of his findings.

But this doesn't necessarily mean they will accept and announce that all of them had been wrong all along.
Can you make up your mind? Thank you.

 

Allegro

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ancalimon said:
No sir, Turks didn't come to this world from space. Turks are not aliens. You live in a dream world, wake up. Turks existed well before 300AD. Just like Seljuks didn't call themselves Turks but Selçuklar, Scythians didn't call themselves Turks but Saka.
Then why did Turks just rediscover the things they alerady had when they were "Scyhtians"?
Seljuks were known as Turks through the world, they knew they were Turks. Proto-Turks didnt replace the Indo-European population of the steppes till Xiongnu. Their advance resulted in lots of Scythic tribes in the region migrating to Iran, Hindu-Kush and Ukraine, it's impacts on the civilizations there are recorded.
ancalimon said:
PS: Allegro, you asked me that you never seen the AT tamga. Look at t1. That's one depiction of the AT tamga.
The square is the horse (AT). The arrow is the man (OQ)
t1 also means (ascend) to be thrown to Tengri (God) or  (descend) to be thrown to world.  (aşandı?, düşendi?  :lol: )
What the **** are you babbling about? T1 is merely a LETTER, it's name might be AT but it doesnt stand for the word AT (which means horse and to throw, none of the bull**** you're talking about), it stands for T. Thats like saying alpha letter stands for the word alpha. So when i write "apple" does it read as "alphapipilamedhepsilon"? Gee, what an idiot...
 

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Archonsod said:
Urlik said:
maybe not.
the tales of other races could be references to neolithic tales of early man co-existing with neanderthals and other early hominids that didn't make it through the evolutionary cut.
Possibly so, but unless Neanderthals were capable of annihilating entire armies merely by looking at them with a single red eye I think we can safely say it's bollocks. Similarly, I doubt very many managed to cross the whole of Ireland in a single bound too. Besides which the mythic cycle dates itself to the early Celtic settlement of Ireland, and not a few millenia before. They did include dates you know.

Urlik said:
why shouldn't the oral history be that old?
Well for a start the Celts haven't been in Ireland 20 000 years, and for a second Neanderthals shared the planet with homo sapiens, not homo sapiens sapiens, which is what we are. We don't even know if our evolutionary fore-runners had a language with which an oral tradition could be preserved, let alone the likelihood of anyone carrying it for the requisite length of time.
sapiens sapiens have been around almost 200,000 years
during that time there have been cro magnon and neanderthalensis and heidelbergensis.

tales of "men" who could shrug off attacks could be an amalgamation of accounts from meetings between men and other hominids who were more physically robust.

contempories tell the story and younger generations hear it and it gets embellished.
the story is retold often (along with any other exciting or memorable tales) as there isn't a radio or TV filling their heads with soap operas and pop music every 5 minutes.

and as I said before, it is just a hypothesis (or if you'd prefer, a complete guess)

as for ancalimon, he's just pushing a nationalistic agenda
 

ancalimon

Baron
M&BWBNWWF&S
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I found that there are other mad people.  :oops: :lol:

Gene D. Matlock - What Strange Mystery Unites the Turkish Nations, India, Catholicism, And Mexico - A Concise but Detailed History of Things Divine and Earthly

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28325924/Gene-D-Matlock-What-Strange-Mystery-Unites-the-Turkish-Nations-India-Catholic-Ism-And-Mexico-A-Concise-but-Detailed-History-of-Things-Divine-and

Read Chapter 6 starting from page 40. Name of the chapter is "The Turks Gave Us Our God, Our Holy Cross, the Name of Jesus, and the Holy Trinity"

I'm actually surprised about how different people can reach similar conclusions.

Here is the Hz,Khz the book talks about. I strongly suspect that he is the person and/or entity  and/or idea that was converted into a human God named "Jesus" by some power hungry politician during one of the Ecumenical Councils. This politician killed Christ in his idea and converted him into Jesus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C4%B1z%C4%B1r
Alexander The Great and Hızır
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn

"Al-Khiḍr also figures into the Alexander Romance as a servant of Alexander the Great. Al-Khidr and Alexander cross the Land of Darkness to find the Water of Life. Alexander gets lost looking for the spring, but al-Khiḍr finds it and gains eternal life (see Alexander the Great in the Qur'an).

Some scholars suggest that al-Khiḍr is also represented in the Arthurian tale, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, as the Green Knight.[6] In the story, the Green Knight tempts the faith of Sir Gawain three times. The character of al-Khiḍr may have come into European literature through the mixing of cultures during the Crusades.

It is also possible that the story derives from an Irish myth which predates the Crusades in which Cuchulainn and two other heroes compete for the champion's portion at feasts; ultimately, Cuchulainn is the only one willing to let a giant—actually a king who has magically disguised himself—cut off his head, as per their agreement.

The story is also similar to one told in the Talmud of a journey made by the prophet Elijah and Rabbi Jochanan.[7] The first house where they stay the night belongs to a pious old couple who give the prophet and the rebbe the best of their food and beds. However, the couple's cow dies in the night. Elijah later explains that the Angel of Death came and he persuaded the angel to take the cow instead of the wife. The next house, as in the al-Khiḍr story, is that of a rich miser, and Elijah repairs his wall so that he will not, in having it repaired, find the treasure hidden under it. This story could have been adapted by religious figures to suit Elijah, taking the essence away from Moses having to learn from someone else. This could have been seen to belittle Moses. Hence was adapted to suit someone else."

Hızır is not strictly an element of only Islam. He is said to be the eternal wanderer among Middle Asia Turks and even Siberian Turks thousands of years before Semitic religions existed. It is said that he taught the idea of a single god called Tengri to Turks.
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Also watch a documentary named Zeitgeist and compare with what is being talked about here. (I strongly advice you watch it)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
 

Skot the Sanguine

Sergeant Knight
WBNW
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Just to give you a head's up, Al-Khidr of the Quran post-dates the Arthurian tales.  In fact, the Arthurian tales are older (in the earliest forms) than Islam.  So...if anything Al-Khidr is the Islamic representation of the Celtic-Christian Green Knight :razz:  (Not that I believe any link).