Is it just me or is the combat AI of soldiers really bad?

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Mithras

Sergeant
WBNWM&B
I feel like all soldiers just run into battle like headless chickens, without blocking or keeping any sort of distance from the enemies. Therefore they die super fast and the melee battle is over in no-time.

I always feel like battles would be much better and longer if AI wasn't so suicidal. Like, even a looter should have some sort of sense of self preservation.
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
Yeah, the only thing the AI is good at is shooting bow or xbow at things in big blobs in front of them. Anything else it's poor performance with big risk of **** up. Even things that look impressive are often just a simple "weapon is longer" thing, like khans guard in melee, look impressive but it's just thier weapon swings and connect easier, not because of any smart fighting. Infantry needs to be baby sat and used very particularly or it all just trades away.
 

Grank

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WBNWVC
Yes they do. Even worse is that they sometimes walk into melee without intending to fight. Just walking to a point and whoopsie doodle an enemy walks in and beat him on the head.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
I genuinely still don't see anything of what we were told here and here and if for Taleworlds this is working as intended... oh boy... this castle is standing on a foundation of toothpicks 😌 🎻 .
 

Mithras

Sergeant
WBNWM&B
I genuinely still don't see anything of what we were told here and here and if for Taleworlds this is working as intended... oh boy... this castle is standing on a foundation of toothpicks 😌 🎻 .
Yeah, I vaguely remembered that patch but it seems like they completely broke it again.

Or the AI just goofs up whenever there is >1 enemies around, which is 99.9% of the time.
 

NPC99

Baron
M&BWBWF&SVC
I genuinely still don't see anything of what we were told here and here and if for Taleworlds this is working as intended... oh boy... this castle is standing on a foundation of toothpicks 😌 🎻 .
I'm sure they did what they claimed. However, I wonder how much was subsequently dumbed down again to cope with the storm of performance problems on low spec pcs. The low minimum pc spec and intended consol port may be incompatible with their smarter ai at big battle sizes. Maybe once the game goes to consols they'll consider an upgraded pc version with much higher minimum specs. I'd buy it.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Yeah, I vaguely remembered that patch but it seems like they completely broke it again.

Or the AI just goofs up whenever there is >1 enemies around, which is 99.9% of the time.
Since the first moments of the closed beta there have been problems that have not been corrected in both SP and MP at the level of AI logic. One of these for example is the bad implementation of the Fallback command which has been broken since then; a command that of course and note the sarcasm... works better in Warband.

Here are two videos in meme form putting the finger on the problem:
I'm sure they did what they claimed. However, I wonder how much was subsequently dumbed down again to cope with the storm of performance problems on low spec pcs. The low minimum pc spec and intended consol port may be incompatible with their smarter ai at big battle sizes. Maybe once the game goes to consols they'll consider an upgraded pc version with much higher minimum specs. I'd buy it.
I know that the transversal performance issue is something recurrent and plausible, however if you apply RBM you will see a "more logical" AI on the battlefield both at group and individual level. I don't know what kind of black magic the RBM guys have conjured up but I can assure you that I haven't noticed any alteration in performance and my rig is no master race (i7 2600k + 8Gb + 1060 gtx 6Gb + W10).
 

AngryPanCake

Veteran
@Terco_Viejo
Watching the HA video made me realize how many arrows my 30 or so HA loosed in order to kill half a dozen looters! You are right, a lot of wastage!

As far as BL battles are concerned, it is true that they are quite quick...very quick indeed!
Total War battle are Epic, but BL battles are Exhilerating! I think they worked on the moral in this patch in order to make the battles longer, not sure whether it is working yet, I guess we players are here to test and provide feedback.

Years ago, when I worked with a modding team for Rome 2, I was working on troop morale because we felt at that time that the battles were too quick/short. Increasing morale had helped, but the side effect was huge casualties at the end of the battle.

Currently, even though the battles are too short, I am enjoying them more than Total War battles (I know, it's crazy I'm saying that because I'm a hard core fan of the Total war franchise). BL battles feel like you are actually there, in the fray, the heat of it.

Of course there are improvements to be done, for instance when I order my 50 men infantry formation to advance hoping they are going to march towards the enemy infantry formation, they act like the dog who sees a squirrel! An enemy single HA rides near them and the whole 50 men deviate from their main target to engage the lone HA.

A few patches ago, I was playing mostly custom battles and was very impressed with the AI, I set up my infantry in a defensive stance, the whole enemy formation marched towards my formation. MC alone on a horse outflanks the enemy, a few men turn to face their shields towards the MC who's shooting arrows, but the whole enemy formation is moving towards the defensive formation. So, I don't know what happened between then and now.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
@Terco_Viejo
Watching the HA video made me realize how many arrows my 30 or so HA loosed in order to kill half a dozen looters! You are right, a lot of wastage!

As far as BL battles are concerned, it is true that they are quite quick...very quick indeed!
Total War battle are Epic, but BL battles are Exhilerating! I think they worked on the moral in this patch in order to make the battles longer, not sure whether it is working yet, I guess we players are here to test and provide feedback.

Years ago, when I worked with a modding team for Rome 2, I was working on troop morale because we felt at that time that the battles were too quick/short. Increasing morale had helped, but the side effect was huge casualties at the end of the battle.

Currently, even though the battles are too short, I am enjoying them more than Total War battles (I know, it's crazy I'm saying that because I'm a hard core fan of the Total war franchise). BL battles feel like you are actually there, in the fray, the heat of it.

Of course there are improvements to be done, for instance when I order my 50 men infantry formation to advance hoping they are going to march towards the enemy infantry formation, they act like the dog who sees a squirrel! An enemy single HA rides near them and the whole 50 men deviate from their main target to engage the lone HA.

A few patches ago, I was playing mostly custom battles and was very impressed with the AI, I set up my infantry in a defensive stance, the whole enemy formation marched towards my formation. MC alone on a horse outflanks the enemy, a few men turn to face their shields towards the MC who's shooting arrows, but the whole enemy formation is moving towards the defensive formation. So, I don't know what happened between then and now.
I should start by saying that the HA video meme was recorded in some previous versions and nowadays it is supposedly corrected (plausible) 🎷 :iamamoron: .
-------------------

For me three fundamental issues need to be consolidated here in this combat system:

-Adjustment to "Warband levels" of the damage/protection calculation formula.
-Jitterning
-Formation cohesion (attacking and defending to a greater extent in a total war-ish style).

That would be the essentials. On top of that would be the individual logic (how the agent attacks/defends in his different tiers) + group logic by formation and role (f.e. pikemen vs footmen? what is that? :iamamoron: ). Sadly the game has not made me change my mind and I keep the same opinion that page after page I wrote in this thread.
 

NPC99

Baron
M&BWBWF&SVC
I know that the transversal performance issue is something recurrent and plausible, however if you apply RBM you will see a "more logical" AI on the battlefield both at group and individual level. I don't know what kind of black magic the RBM guys have conjured up but I can assure you that I haven't noticed any alteration in performance and my rig is no master race (i7 2600k + 8Gb + 1060 gtx 6Gb + W10).
That suggests that TW built the capabilities but failed to implement them effectively, which would be deeply disappointing.
 

skoonting

Recruit
I know that the transversal performance issue is something recurrent and plausible, however if you apply RBM you will see a "more logical" AI on the battlefield both at group and individual level. I don't know what kind of black magic the RBM guys have conjured up but I can assure you that I haven't noticed any alteration in performance and my rig is no master race (i7 2600k + 8Gb + 1060 gtx 6Gb + W10).
My understanding is that the vanilla AI uses the tactics skill to determine how smart they are at making battlefield-decisions but that it's somehow broken in vanilla. RDM apparently disables this system entirely, so every AI lord is functioning to its fullest potential at all times. I'm sure they've done some tweaking of values and whatnot to change certain behaviours, but I don't think they changed anything massive about it.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
That suggests that TW built the capabilities but failed to implement them effectively, which would be deeply disappointing.
You know I have enough powder to reply with some sarcasm of my own; however I won't.... I won't do it because it's so sad the situation if it was really like that...

For example, take a look at this Native vs RBM comparison video showing a unit of skirmishers.


In comparison it's like night and day and there is no performance impact whatsoever. Maybe @Philozoraptor can talk more in depth about it if he feels like commenting.

Now imagine your 2.0 version of the English wars mod for Bannerlord and how the pike and shot tactics would be represented. I'm telling you, absolutely a disaster.

Bannerlord Native should have those types of roles (pikemen I mean) already fully polished so that period mods (antiquity with phalanxes, renaissance-modern with pike squares, etc) only have to apply a coat of paint, not a matter of basic mechanics and dynamics.

My understanding is that the vanilla AI uses the tactics skill to determine how smart they are at making battlefield-decisions but that it's somehow broken in vanilla. RDM apparently disables this system entirely, so every AI lord is functioning to its fullest potential at all times. I'm sure they've done some tweaking of values and whatnot to change certain behaviours, but I don't think they changed anything massive about it.
If they are just tweaks then why hasn't Taleworlds unleashed the Kraken yet? :iamamoron:
 
Vanilla skill based tactics simply mean that at 0 skill only tactic used by AI is charge, and I mean literally charge on all troops. We also removed some tactics because they were broken and did not work properly.
 

Horked

To be fair, now we have 1k vs 1k = 2k bots in one game, AI + all the combat calculations incl. physics, not to mention horses and projectiles, quite demanding. AI can be improved for sure, I just dont think its a priority right now when they just optimized for 2k battles, need to see what bugs it will generate and fix those, then maybe after that, AI could be improved. Thats how Id do it anyway, but then im not a dev :grin: Im sure they know its poor and it will be improved in future. One of the main prides or grails of all the devs I know and talked to is to make good AI. Patience friends :grin:

 
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To be fair, now we have 1k vs 1k = 2k bots in one game, AI + all the combat calculations incl. physics, not to mention horses and projectiles, quite demanding. AI can be improved for sure, I just dont think its a priority right now when they just optimized for 2k battles, need to see what bugs it will generate and fix those, then maybe after that, AI could be improved. Thats how Id do it anyway, but then im not a dev :grin: Im sure they know its poor and it will be improved in future. One of the main prides or grails of all the devs I know and talked to is to make good AI. Patience friends :grin:

What do you mean by 2K battles? When you choose 1k vs 1k battle you will get 500 vs 500 with 500 reinforcements on each side.
 

Mithras

Sergeant
WBNWM&B
I know that the transversal performance issue is something recurrent and plausible, however if you apply RBM you will see a "more logical" AI on the battlefield both at group and individual level. I don't know what kind of black magic the RBM guys have conjured up but I can assure you that I haven't noticed any alteration in performance and my rig is no master race (i7 2600k + 8Gb + 1060 gtx 6Gb + W10).
Heh, I didn't know about that mod. Will definitely give it a try.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
Heh, I didn't know about that mod. Will definitely give it a try.
It's definitely a gameplay changer as far as in-mission battles is concerned; it's a different philosophy I'd say.

Practically all my little tweaks published on nexus have RBM compatibility, I don't play without it enabled; I recommend it whenever I have the chance.

It's really fortunate that RBM exists, but it's sad that what the game offers by default doesn't pass the mark with something as basic and fundamental as the combat system.
 
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