Inverting the inputs of combat

[Captain Nivek]

Hello to everyone!

I recently got my beta key and have been playing non-stop for the last days and been enjoying myself enormously! ...atleast most of the time.

The problem i'm having is the directional input system. For me it doesn't make any sense in its design since it doesn't feel intuitive at all.

Original:
1. Drag mouse for direction
2. Click mouse button to ready/block
3. Release mouse button to attack/stop block.

The problem occurs when for example i'm fighting someone and he's passing on my right, so i'm turning my mouse consistently towards my right to keep up with him, which gives me the directional input to strike him from my right side aswell. If I would like to strike him from the left, I have to flick my wrist to the left and click at the same time which can be hard to do as fast as possible when you want to keep track of your opponent. So what ends up happening is I want to do two inputs at the same time, left and right, and therefore half of the time i get the attack direction I want, that is the left side attack and the other half is attacks from the right side, all because i'm trying to keep track on my enemy at the same time. Spending so much of my focus just to get my character to attack from the direction i want is not intuitive.

So how I would like to see the directional input system change? Quite simple, just mix the orders from the current system.

Alternative system:

1. Click mouse button to ready/block
2. Drag mouse for direction
3. Release Mouse button to attack/stop block

I believe this "small" change would make it feel a lot more responsive and less disorienting for new players. (I don't know how many times I've forced my camera to look at the ground just to get my character to do a thrust with his spear)

Also, I do not suggest that this would become the primary system, I know how much time players have invested to master this system. However, I would suggest for it to become an alternative for more casual players.

 

[Caps]

that would make the combat feel super laggy imo(blocking already got a super long delay), just try to keep the enemy centered in your screen you will master it someday

 

[Captain Nivek]

that would make the combat feel super laggy imo(blocking already got a super long delay), just try to keep the enemy centered in your screen you will master it someday

Perhaps i'm wrong but I'm not sure I agree on that. The delay is the amount of time it takes for you to move the mouse after clicking and as far as I see it you can move it even before and after clicking and it will register instantenously along with your movement. The thing is it's easier to click and flick the mouse then to click during the flick of the mouse.

 

[Caps]

so when should the block happen then after u flick the mouse? you would need to click in advance everytime then. You might wanna try inverse from warband, not sure if they will implement it in bannerlord or not.

 

[Captain Nivek]

so when should the block happen then after u flick the mouse? you would need to click in advance everytime then. You might wanna try inverse from warband, not sure if they will implement it in bannerlord or not.

"so when should the block happen then after u flick the mouse?" -- Yes

"you would need to click in advance everytime then" -- Yes, kinda like draggin the mouse in the direction in advance in the current system, but now you're not trying to control the camera at the same time you're just deciding to block. [EDITED]

"You might wanna try inverse from warband, not sure if they will implement it in bannerlord or not." -- Not sure what the "inverse" is, however Bannerlord has a inverse directional input available but it does not fix the issue, just inverses the input.

 

[Mabons]

This is something you inherently get used to. It's part of the learning curve. And in any case, doing a left swing while someone is going around your right is the worst option anyways, it will be slower to hit, will most likely not hit in the correct part of the animation, and with the current wide arcs of swings your more likely to hit something else before you hit the opponent.

FYI, if someone is coming to your right, readying a right swing, you can also block right(even though you should block left for the correct block) here, as long as the weapon will physically touch your blade then the block should work.

 

[Captain Nivek]

This is something you inherently get used to. It's part of the learning curve. And in any case, doing a left swing while someone is going around your right is the worst option anyways, it will be slower to hit, will most likely not hit in the correct part of the animation, and with the current wide arcs of swings your more likely to hit something else before you hit the opponent.

Not sure the point of this text, it's mostly just explaining why you should attack from the right and not from the left. Ok.

FYI, if someone is coming to your right, readying a right swing, you can also block right(even though you should block left for the correct block) here, as long as the weapon will physically touch your blade then the block should work.

You do give a good example here on why my suggested system could be an improvement. "though you should block left for the correct block" <-- Exactly my problem, I should block left but i need to turn right to keep track on the enemy but the current system supports a right block far easier than a left block in that situation.

 

[Namakan]

For reference, could you share with us how many hours you have spent playing the beta and how long, if at all, you played Warband?

 

[Captain Nivek]

For reference, could you share with us how many hours you have spent playing the beta and how long, if at all, you played Warband?

I was part of the latest beta key release and i'm now at 15 hours in Bannerlord and around 325 hours in warband according to my steam account.

 

[Mabons]

Not sure the point of this text, it's mostly just explaining why you should attack from the right and not from the left. Ok.

I'm explaining that because no one complains about such a thing once they've played a little more because naturally no one swings left when an opponent is on their right.

You do give a good example here on why my suggested system could be an improvement. "though you should block left for the correct block" <-- Exactly my problem, I should block left but i need to turn right to keep track on the enemy but the current system supports a right block far easier than a left block in that situation.

You completely did not read my post correctly.

Imagine you are standing facing someone, and they move to go around your right hand side, holding (from their screen) a right swing. Normally you would block left which means you have to look left, press RMB, and then look right. But as per a suggestion back in Warband beta (from myself) the devs implemented a way in which you can block right in this situation and it will block the attack despite it being the normally wrong block.

I repeat, this is in the game already, it was a part of warband.

 

[sniparsexe]

I should block left but i need to turn right to keep track on the enemy

It isn't that hard (welp at least isn't that hard in Warband) you don't have to move your mouse too much, just a cm would block an attack, then you can continue to track the enemy (this is the case in Warband, didn't play Bannerlord yet.)

 

[Captain Nivek]

I'm explaining that because no one complains about such a thing once they've played a little more because naturally no one swings left when an opponent is on their right.

Also, why wouldn't they swing from the right when it's ten times more difficult to swing from the left? Yes, i get your point.
You're talking about what to do in different scenarios but i'm talking about giving the player possibility to do whatever they want in different scenarios.

I'm saying it's hard to give input to my character to swing from the left side.

You're saying the wisest thing to do is swing from the right.

Your message is missing the point, i'm not talking about what to do in random scenarios.
I'm saying the input system is crooked. It's guiding you towards always making a right swing when players are passing on your right side because of the input system. So if the enemy is blocking your attack from the right side and you want to do an attack from the left side to counter it, then the input system is working against you.

You completely did not read my post correctly.

Imagine you are standing facing someone, and they move to go around your right hand side, holding (from their screen) a right swing. Normally you would block left which means you have to look left, press RMB, and then look right. But as per a suggestion back in Warband beta (from myself) the devs implemented a way in which you can block right in this situation and it will block the attack despite it being the normally wrong block.

I repeat, this is in the game already, it was a part of warband.

And here, same thing. I'm not talking about how to handle different situations, i'm talking about the input system.

It isn't that hard (welp at least isn't that hard in Warband) you don't have to move your mouse too much, just a cm would block an attack, then you can continue to track the enemy (this is the case in Warband, didn't play Bannerlord yet.)

Yes, that is how the system works. My point remains, it's counter-intuitive.

 

[darksoulshin]

Hello to everyone!

I recently got my beta key and have been playing non-stop for the last days and been enjoying myself enormously! ...atleast most of the time.

The problem i'm having is the directional input system. For me it doesn't make any sense in its design since it doesn't feel intuitive at all.

Original:
1. Drag mouse for direction
2. Click mouse button to ready/block
3. Release mouse button to attack/stop block.

The problem occurs when for example i'm fighting someone and he's passing on my right, so i'm turning my mouse consistently towards my right to keep up with him, which gives me the directional input to strike him from my right side aswell. If I would like to strike him from the left, I have to flick my wrist to the left and click at the same time which can be hard to do as fast as possible when you want to keep track of your opponent. So what ends up happening is I want to do two inputs at the same time, left and right, and therefore half of the time i get the attack direction I want, that is the left side attack and the other half is attacks from the right side, all because i'm trying to keep track on my enemy at the same time. Spending so much of my focus just to get my character to attack from the direction i want is not intuitive.

So how I would like to see the directional input system change? Quite simple, just mix the orders from the current system.

Alternative system:

1. Click mouse button to ready/block
2. Drag mouse for direction
3. Release Mouse button to attack/stop block

I believe this "small" change would make it feel a lot more responsive and less disorienting for new players. (I don't know how many times I've forced my camera to look at the ground just to get my character to do a thrust with his spear)

Also, I do not suggest that this would become the primary system, I know how much time players have invested to master this system. However, I would suggest for it to become an alternative for more casual players.

My answer is an automatic yes.
For 2 simple reasons:
1) Systems must always be tested and to test them you need to implement them.
Saying no a priori does not make any sense, especially if you do not make statistical analyzes that give feedback on the goodness or not of the tested system.
2) I had proposed your idea months ago, but not for bannerlord, but in feedback for gothic remake.
That game, in its time, was the bearer of innovation, as was mount and blade for its field.
And in the spirit of that innovation, I didn't want them to use that slow fighting system they took from for honor.
So I proposed a combat system that in summary is like what you propose ..
The nice thing is that I had the inspiration from mount and blade (and also from super smash bros).

 

[Mabons]

/snip

For crying out loud I explained it in perfect detail and you've completely missed it both times.

A SYSTEM THAT HELPS THIS IS IN THE GAME ALREADY JUST NOT IN THE WAY YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

 

[Rafalongo]

(I don't know how many times I've forced my camera to look at the ground just to get my character to do a thrust with his spear)

An experienced player only needs to make a minimum movement and at the right moment to give direction to the blow or block. It is part of the expertise.

And in any case, doing a left swing while someone is going around your right is the worst option anyways, it will be slower to hit

Exactly, it is a very bad decision, you must take advantage of the direction of the movement to hit harder for speed, when someone moves away from you, giving him a lunge is weak, when someone approaches, he is stronger.
And also, the system it proposes has the same problems of simultaneous use of the camera and the direction of the blow. It doesn't fix anything, it just changes it.

 

[Captain Nivek]

For crying out loud I explained it in perfect detail and you've completely missed it both times.

A SYSTEM THAT HELPS THIS IS IN THE GAME ALREADY JUST NOT IN THE WAY YOU'VE DESCRIBED.

And that system you're talking about is the one where you block right but you turn your character to defend from an attack from the left so the blade still blocks?
Because if that's the case you need to read this thread once again. If it's not, please enlighten me again on what system you're talking about.

An experienced player only needs to make a minimum movement and at the right moment to give direction to the blow or block. It is part of the expertise.

???, yes everyone here knows how the system works. I'm saying it's counter-intuitive.

Exactly, it is a very bad decision, you must take advantage of the direction of the movement to hit harder for speed, when someone moves away from you, giving him a lunge is weak, when someone approaches, he is stronger.

Great discussion of something that has nothing to do with the input system.

And also, the system it proposes has the same problems of simultaneous use of the camera and the direction of the blow. It doesn't fix anything, it just changes it.

Yes, it changes it for an easier and more intuitive input system. That's the point.

To click during a flick of the mouse is a lot more difficult than to just click and flick the mouse.

 

[Mabons]

And that system you're talking about is the one where you block right but you turn your character to defend from an attack from the left so the blade still blocks?
Because if that's the case you need to read this thread once again. If it's not, please enlighten me again on what system you're talking about.

No it's not. The only way I can explain any more clearly is by showing you. Jesus. My steam name is the same as my forum name, please add me and we can arrange some way to show you.

 

[Rafalongo]

Great discussion of something that has nothing to do with the input system.

" Alternative system: 2. Drag mouse for direction " ...same problem.

 

[Captain Nivek]

" Alternative system: 2. Drag mouse for direction " ...same problem.

Are you trolling or is this just at the level you are?

 

[Captain Nivek]

bump