Hail brave Caladrians. If you are there, that mean you didn't die during the absolute slaughter of this sunday.
Also AKA PW total WORZ
To not overload the others topic, we shall make a small FAQ here and then discuss about how improving the concept and fitting it to the noble concept.
What it's the Shieldwall battle ?
It's could also be simplified as Formation battle, but to be honest, writing shieldwall clearly state that people have to make formations using their shield.
For those who really don't have a clue.
Here the shows :
Why to use this concept ?
To let you know first, i jumped on M&B Warband to find some nice battle to join to, like in the single player but with people.
I was a bit disappointed when i saw native/CRPG with people running everywhere doing 2 handed helicopter and a mainly skill based game lacking the flavour of realistic medieval battle.
So since roughly 4-5 months, we are doing Shieldwall battle.
Starting at 60-70 players of the EU community, the 150 full server of yesterday could have been a 200 players battle easily. And i'm looking forward for that.
Finally, some battle that look like medieval, even if it's not perfect.
Finally the leader could raise his sword and order dozens of men to go forward into a absolute hellish slaughter.
We should use Native for this.
When you think about it. Native is a downgrade of PW in the terms of fighting. There is no buildable ladder/wall. There is no battlefield medic, there is no capturable flag with dual castle. There is no control over the gear. You cannot do a sarranid army with Swadia gear for instance.
For all this reason and even more. ( Adding more faction, changing the class, full control over gear, castle, map ) PW is better.
CRPG ?
I play and enjoy CRPG myself, but the gear difference between new players and vet players just kill off the balance of skill. It's also lack some of the feature of PW for siege.
Round system Vs real time battle.
To clarify it.
We used to make real time battle without forcing people to withdraw after rounds.Then i took an arrow to the knee.
Then it's look like that after the first charge it turned out into a zergling rush battle where people get their gear asap to join back the battlefield.
Then it returned back to a native game where no side could gain the upper hand thanks to strategy, and tactics.
The round system was first tested for large scale yesterday. And if it's still need some tweaks. I'm not the only one to think it's a great improvement.
The "peace time" is merely to force people to stand in formation and value their life.
If the preparation time seem long it's also bring realistic ingame pressure over players who Roleplay as soldier.
In real life you wouldn't throw your life away to grab a kill for absolutely no reason ?
Having a way to force people to wait for the next round when killed force commander to value their soldiers and the soldier to act more "realisticly on the battlefield"
The moral was a great deal back then in middle age. And it's a pure enjoyment to see the enemy formation scatter and withdraw as their flank are being destroy.
Alternatively it's allow some great deal of tactics.
I lost the second river battle when as my flank conscripts force was pushed back, the German legion and the french Corp was surrounded from both flank.
I told them to hold the damn line. They did
Tirok also mentioned that some of the Caladrian were "Afraid" to charge in the middle of combat. Now this is what we want.
That simply why a round system is better.
Formations over zerg rushs
Life value over Rush to kill.
Tiers system Vs open armoury and money spawn. ?
Here is also another debate.
At the very first event, we used to give everyone as much money as they wanted. Leading to have full plated army against full plated army and dueling great swords.
That downgraded the skill needed, as blows were getting slower because of the weight of armor.
Full plate and heavy were render useless as it's take 2 heavy 2H blows to kill a full plate.
That the point, we can't everyone a good armors and outstanding weapons.
Battle are also better when weapons and especially ranged one are more weaker than the protections. People then take more time to kill at each others which lead to longer and yet more interesting battle.
The tier system show up 2 months ago during the Dday event so attackers would get better and better gear as the time goes.
Here the basic overview :
Tier 1 : Light armor, plain boardshield, spear, Knife, hunting bow.
Tier 2 : Mail armor, boardshield, awepike, 1 sword/mace, shortbow, hunting Xbow. Light 2H axe (Wood cutter )
Tier 3 : Heavy Brigandine , Heavy boardshield, Longawepike, Longbow, light Xbow, 1H axe, 1h pick, 1H arming sword, and a heavy 2H axe ( Shortened Voulge )
Superior tier greatly increase the effectiveness of the army but is not an instant win 50 archers with huntbows can take still take down 25 mailed footman struggling to take the walls.
Remember that we can't ask admin to spawn drop weapons/armour. It need to be map wise with locked door, or else, 3/4 of admin time will be about refunding/regearing people.
This need to be discussed but.
Tier 1 : The spear should be the most effective weapon at this level. Bows are support and are quite effective against light armour.
Tier 2 : As the armory increase, the weapons must make a choice beetwen pikemen and Xbowman for footman, Archers got better bows and the armor increase allow soldiers to stand longer.
Tier 3 : This should be a finishing tier. The weapons and armors should be enough to overcome the enemy. The axe-weapons are designed to crush shields as strong ranged take the enemy down.
Tier 4 (to discuss not yet implemented ) : Knightly shield and weapons, full plate. Great weapons and the most effective bows and Xbows.
Elite units and Sergeant.
The only "elite" we had was the sergeant of units. But in fact the shieldwall can include special elite units which are basically group of players who don't rely on tier and get a superior gear from the "mass"
The current shieldwall map support.
Heavy infantry
Light cavalry lancers
Heavy Cavalry knight
Elite archers.
However this can't be done without a proper tag system. Also we must make sure that the load out is not abused. For instance having sergeants dropping 1h axe for their little friends.
Also, having too much elite slow down the game as Elites are required to be opened by admin.
It may be change to give the lord key, but it's will really require the responsibility of everyone to not abuse this.
This is also a better way rather than giving admin pass to everyone. Full admins are still needed to be referees.
Concerning elite units. I will suggest a small elite force of 10-15 knights for 100 soldiers . They start as lancers on tier 1 and goes heavy cavalry later.
Remember that heavy cavalry is hardly stoppable on tier 1. The charger goes ****load of health and will turn the formation into bloody pulp.
Objective and rewards.
Of course we need to keep the battle balance. But around 70% of the shieldwall i played resulted into a stall or a non decisive victory after the river last battle. That mean on equal tiers, an army can hardly overcome in a castle offence.
To fix that, i started to give superior tier to the side who get the upper hand during the river battle.
However after that, i admit it's quite hard to know when to give back tier to the defensive side, as they can hardly get the upper hand on a attack with inferior gear.
So i tough about a "point system".
Winning an attack = 2 points and getting forward to the next attacking step.
Winning a defence = 1 point and keeping your position.
To upgrade your foot army tier, you need 2 points.
To upgrade your cavalry tier. You need 1 points ( Light cavalry to heavy cavalry )
The scripted battle will be more commander decided.
1. the first assault on the river : both commanders are attackers.
2. The defending commander choose the next move: Counter attack or defend.
Concerning capture there is 3 steps.
- River capture
- Gate house capture or gate destroyed.
- Keep capture.
To avoid a draw we can also think about an honour battle. where both armies attack the river from their castle.
We can also think about setting up victory degrees who can change the political setting.
Enemy keep captured : Outstanding victory.
Gate house captured : Major victory.
River held : Minor victory.
Honor battle won : Minor victory.
Balanced battle vs realism :
A point we need to talk also.
The point of having balanced battle (everyone with the same armory ) divert also to the fact that historically armies used differents load out for their men.
Lords couldn't buy everything and they had to compromise beetwen Footman / Archers / Cavalry.
Choice they did before the battle also influenced their in battle tactics and strategy.
For now the armory will be kept balance, but we will slowly move to a system where people will have "point" to invest in order to focus their army on more/better cavalry, better archers, better armors for footman ect ...
If we do that, thing can greatly change.
We can have a start for footman at ruffian class and a start for archers at Brigand class.
Upgrade tiers could be done a week before hand and set on the map.
This a rough concept we need to talk with.
Discuss.
And for all the Caladrian. We shall meet again. My men are eager for revenge.
Also AKA PW total WORZ
To not overload the others topic, we shall make a small FAQ here and then discuss about how improving the concept and fitting it to the noble concept.
What it's the Shieldwall battle ?
It's could also be simplified as Formation battle, but to be honest, writing shieldwall clearly state that people have to make formations using their shield.
For those who really don't have a clue.
Here the shows :
Event trailer :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJa1NNq4Zg&feature=channel_video_title
Live action videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdfp4L8Dr8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV5P_g5JUNY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJa1NNq4Zg&feature=channel_video_title
Live action videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdfp4L8Dr8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV5P_g5JUNY
Why to use this concept ?
To let you know first, i jumped on M&B Warband to find some nice battle to join to, like in the single player but with people.
I was a bit disappointed when i saw native/CRPG with people running everywhere doing 2 handed helicopter and a mainly skill based game lacking the flavour of realistic medieval battle.
So since roughly 4-5 months, we are doing Shieldwall battle.
Starting at 60-70 players of the EU community, the 150 full server of yesterday could have been a 200 players battle easily. And i'm looking forward for that.
Finally, some battle that look like medieval, even if it's not perfect.
Finally the leader could raise his sword and order dozens of men to go forward into a absolute hellish slaughter.
CHARGE !
We should use Native for this.
When you think about it. Native is a downgrade of PW in the terms of fighting. There is no buildable ladder/wall. There is no battlefield medic, there is no capturable flag with dual castle. There is no control over the gear. You cannot do a sarranid army with Swadia gear for instance.
For all this reason and even more. ( Adding more faction, changing the class, full control over gear, castle, map ) PW is better.
CRPG ?
I play and enjoy CRPG myself, but the gear difference between new players and vet players just kill off the balance of skill. It's also lack some of the feature of PW for siege.
Round system Vs real time battle.
To clarify it.
We used to make real time battle without forcing people to withdraw after rounds.
Then it's look like that after the first charge it turned out into a zergling rush battle where people get their gear asap to join back the battlefield.
Then it returned back to a native game where no side could gain the upper hand thanks to strategy, and tactics.
The round system was first tested for large scale yesterday. And if it's still need some tweaks. I'm not the only one to think it's a great improvement.
The "peace time" is merely to force people to stand in formation and value their life.
If the preparation time seem long it's also bring realistic ingame pressure over players who Roleplay as soldier.
In real life you wouldn't throw your life away to grab a kill for absolutely no reason ?
Having a way to force people to wait for the next round when killed force commander to value their soldiers and the soldier to act more "realisticly on the battlefield"
The moral was a great deal back then in middle age. And it's a pure enjoyment to see the enemy formation scatter and withdraw as their flank are being destroy.
Alternatively it's allow some great deal of tactics.
I lost the second river battle when as my flank conscripts force was pushed back, the German legion and the french Corp was surrounded from both flank.
I told them to hold the damn line. They did
Tirok also mentioned that some of the Caladrian were "Afraid" to charge in the middle of combat. Now this is what we want.
That simply why a round system is better.
Formations over zerg rushs
Life value over Rush to kill.
Tiers system Vs open armoury and money spawn. ?
Here is also another debate.
At the very first event, we used to give everyone as much money as they wanted. Leading to have full plated army against full plated army and dueling great swords.
That downgraded the skill needed, as blows were getting slower because of the weight of armor.
Full plate and heavy were render useless as it's take 2 heavy 2H blows to kill a full plate.
That the point, we can't everyone a good armors and outstanding weapons.
Battle are also better when weapons and especially ranged one are more weaker than the protections. People then take more time to kill at each others which lead to longer and yet more interesting battle.
The tier system show up 2 months ago during the Dday event so attackers would get better and better gear as the time goes.
Here the basic overview :
Tier 1 : Light armor, plain boardshield, spear, Knife, hunting bow.
Tier 2 : Mail armor, boardshield, awepike, 1 sword/mace, shortbow, hunting Xbow. Light 2H axe (Wood cutter )
Tier 3 : Heavy Brigandine , Heavy boardshield, Longawepike, Longbow, light Xbow, 1H axe, 1h pick, 1H arming sword, and a heavy 2H axe ( Shortened Voulge )
Superior tier greatly increase the effectiveness of the army but is not an instant win 50 archers with huntbows can take still take down 25 mailed footman struggling to take the walls.
Remember that we can't ask admin to spawn drop weapons/armour. It need to be map wise with locked door, or else, 3/4 of admin time will be about refunding/regearing people.
This need to be discussed but.
Tier 1 : The spear should be the most effective weapon at this level. Bows are support and are quite effective against light armour.
Tier 2 : As the armory increase, the weapons must make a choice beetwen pikemen and Xbowman for footman, Archers got better bows and the armor increase allow soldiers to stand longer.
Tier 3 : This should be a finishing tier. The weapons and armors should be enough to overcome the enemy. The axe-weapons are designed to crush shields as strong ranged take the enemy down.
Tier 4 (to discuss not yet implemented ) : Knightly shield and weapons, full plate. Great weapons and the most effective bows and Xbows.
Elite units and Sergeant.
The only "elite" we had was the sergeant of units. But in fact the shieldwall can include special elite units which are basically group of players who don't rely on tier and get a superior gear from the "mass"
Heavy infantry
Light cavalry lancers
Heavy Cavalry knight
Elite archers.
However this can't be done without a proper tag system. Also we must make sure that the load out is not abused. For instance having sergeants dropping 1h axe for their little friends.
Also, having too much elite slow down the game as Elites are required to be opened by admin.
It may be change to give the lord key, but it's will really require the responsibility of everyone to not abuse this.
This is also a better way rather than giving admin pass to everyone. Full admins are still needed to be referees.
Concerning elite units. I will suggest a small elite force of 10-15 knights for 100 soldiers . They start as lancers on tier 1 and goes heavy cavalry later.
Remember that heavy cavalry is hardly stoppable on tier 1. The charger goes ****load of health and will turn the formation into bloody pulp.
Objective and rewards.
Of course we need to keep the battle balance. But around 70% of the shieldwall i played resulted into a stall or a non decisive victory after the river last battle. That mean on equal tiers, an army can hardly overcome in a castle offence.
To fix that, i started to give superior tier to the side who get the upper hand during the river battle.
However after that, i admit it's quite hard to know when to give back tier to the defensive side, as they can hardly get the upper hand on a attack with inferior gear.
So i tough about a "point system".
Winning an attack = 2 points and getting forward to the next attacking step.
Winning a defence = 1 point and keeping your position.
To upgrade your foot army tier, you need 2 points.
To upgrade your cavalry tier. You need 1 points ( Light cavalry to heavy cavalry )
The scripted battle will be more commander decided.
1. the first assault on the river : both commanders are attackers.
2. The defending commander choose the next move: Counter attack or defend.
Concerning capture there is 3 steps.
- River capture
- Gate house capture
- Keep capture.
To avoid a draw we can also think about an honour battle. where both armies attack the river from their castle.
We can also think about setting up victory degrees who can change the political setting.
Enemy keep captured : Outstanding victory.
Gate house captured : Major victory.
River held : Minor victory.
Honor battle won : Minor victory.
Balanced battle vs realism :
A point we need to talk also.
The point of having balanced battle (everyone with the same armory ) divert also to the fact that historically armies used differents load out for their men.
Lords couldn't buy everything and they had to compromise beetwen Footman / Archers / Cavalry.
Choice they did before the battle also influenced their in battle tactics and strategy.
For now the armory will be kept balance, but we will slowly move to a system where people will have "point" to invest in order to focus their army on more/better cavalry, better archers, better armors for footman ect ...
If we do that, thing can greatly change.
We can have a start for footman at ruffian class and a start for archers at Brigand class.
Upgrade tiers could be done a week before hand and set on the map.
This a rough concept we need to talk with.
Discuss.
And for all the Caladrian. We shall meet again. My men are eager for revenge.
We shall Conquer Or we Shall die !
Im expecting a mob of Ruffians to swarm a plated knight and dehorse him.
