Information about developments at snowballing problem

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mexxico said:
I collect data at different moments for army count. That value was average of all moments. You can count each day or once in each 5 days or once in each 50 days. If your sample count is big enought you will always see that average army count per kingdom is 1 at each moment.
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Oh ok now I get it. Thx!
It could be hourly base as well...
Then maybe reaching 0,8 could be more reasonable indeed.
 
Spinozart1 said:
In terms of wealth maybe, but in terms of power I don't know... Khuzait is the kingdom who has the most fiefs after 20 years...
10 towns and 11 castles. That's why I was suprised to see that only one clan was "Rich" and the rest was "Poor".
Click to expand...
A double nerf in the sense the move speed bonus was small but useful but replaced by a culture perk that is basically pointless. Since almost all the cost of training cavalry is in warhorses and recruiting/upgrading troops is so cheap the 10% discount is completely unnoticeable. The Khuzait's primary perk doesn't matter for 95% of a playthrough while its downside varies heavily based on playstyle. You can completely negate it if you don't care about fief income and make your money other ways (Khuzait trader run or raider/extortionist) but it hurts players a bit in terms who play the standard route while being ****ing brutal on the AI.
 
Blood Gryphon said:
@mexxico playing recently i noticed in 1.5.10 that enemies clans can now offer to buy prisoners from you, which gives you a big side notification that pops up a offer with the option for accept or decline.

When i saw it, the first thing to came to mind is that this is one way how I imagined peace offerings coming to the player if they are king.

Obviously this would be a big fundamental change to how the current peace system works, currently once the player joins a faction other factions no longer get to make peace with them and it sits solely in the hands of whatever faction the player is a part of.

Because of this limitation the player kingdom can't do what other AI kingdoms can do and I think it even stops what the AI ones might be trying to do. We know that AI kingdoms will sometimes essentially renegotiate tribute by declaring war and then instantly asking for peace so that it lowers the tribute they pay or increase the tribute the other side pays. But because the AI kingdoms can't make peace they end up declaring war and being stuck until the player faction decides it wants peace.

Another example is when a player kingdom is already at war with a AI kingdom and then another AI kingdom declares war on the first AI kingdom. The first AI kingdom will make peace with the AI kingdom instead of the player faction even if technically it would make more sense for them to make peace with the player faction.

Honestly i'd prefer it be a kingdom vote on whether to accept or decline the peace treaty, but would also be fine if it was just left to the king to decide through a popup like the prisoner one.

I know this would bring up the issue of the player faction not working like the AI kingdoms since AI kingdoms don't get to choose to accept or decline peace offerings, but id argue that the player faction is already different from AI kingdoms since the player kingdom is always required to vote and spend influence to make peace.

Next issue would be, what happens if a player declines the peace offer. I think that maybe put a time limit on when the AI kingdom can ask again, but still let the player offer peace (meaning the player can now offer peace but it will now be more favorable to the AI). Also if that AI kingdom is at war with multiple people and needs to get out of war with one of them, even if the player is the best choice, if the player rejects then the AI moves on to the next faction to make peace with.

Would love to hear others thoughts on letting the AI kingdoms make peace with the player kingdom and how to tackle some of the issues I brought up.
Click to expand...

5 days ago I wrote here about I will move this suggestion internal because I 100% agree and at same point with you. I posted your suggestion internal 2 days ago explained case in a long detailed text to avoid a possible reject with explaining why this feature is needed. However I could not get a reply yet. Some testers only replied and they approved game needs this feature.

YC9dA.jpg

Then I wanted to show this is an easy issue and can be implemented without any risk or big work need. I spent 1 day and added this feature to game. It is currently working and enemy kingdoms make a peace voting inside and send us offers time to time. Here you can see a peace offer from player's enemy. So it is currently ready but yet I did not get any approve. If it is approved it can be at game at 1.6.2 (1.6.1 tests will be start soon, so low probability to reach it).

Before click right icon
ykbIU.jpg


After click right icon
_KUiZ.jpg

Of course in example they sent us an offer which our kingdom need to pay tribute but sometimes if player kingdom is in a good position at war this will be "enemy is ready to pay tribute to you". In above sample all other our clans are ok with paying 2540 denars. Thats why they make an inside voting with "if enemy pays 2540 denars are you ok for peace". If this peace voting accepted among enemy clans and all our kingdom clans are ok with paying 2540 denars icon appears at right and we give final decision. Normally you know currently a faction does not make inside peace voting if player is vassal at enemy kingdom so only way is player's kingdom to do inside voting for peace currently. This locks player's kingdom in long and everlasting wars currently in some cases.


So next week I will try pushing this feature. We will see what will happen.
 
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mexxico said:
5 days ago I wrote here about I will move this suggestion internal because I 100% agree and at same point with you. I posted your suggestion internal 2 days ago explained case in a long detailed text to avoid a possible reject with explaining all reasons. However I could not get a reply from top yet. Some testers only replied and they approved game needs this feature. .

YC9dA.jpg

Then I wanted to show this is an easy issue and can be implemented without any risk or big work need. I spent 1 day and added this feature to game. It is currently working and enemy kingdoms make a peace voting inside and send us offers time to time. Here you can see a peace offer from player's enemy. So it is currently ready but yet I did not get any approve. If it is approved it can be at game at 1.6.2 (1.6.1 tests will be start soon, so low probability to reach it).

Before click right icon
ykbIU.jpg


After click right icon
_KUiZ.jpg

Of course in example they sent us an offer which our kingdom need to pay tribute but sometimes if player kingdom is in a good position at war this will be "enemy is ready to pay tribute to you". In above sample all other our clans are ok with paying 2540 denars. Thats why they make an inside voting with "if enemy pays 2540 denars are you ok for peace". If this peace voting accepted among enemy clans and all our kingdom clans are ok with paying 2540 denars icon appears at right and we give final decision. Normally you know currently a faction does not make inside peace voting if player is vassal at enemy kingdom so only way is player's kingdom to do inside voting for peace currently. This locks player's kingdom in long and everlasting wars currently in some cases.


So next week I will try pushing this feature. We will see what will happen.
Click to expand...
Excellent development, I hope this gets approved
 
mexxico said:
5 days ago I wrote here about I will move this suggestion internal because I 100% agree and at same point with you. I posted your suggestion internal 2 days ago explained case in a long detailed text to avoid a possible reject with explaining why this feature is needed. However I could not get a reply from top yet. Some testers only replied and they approved game needs this feature.

YC9dA.jpg

Then I wanted to show this is an easy issue and can be implemented without any risk or big work need. I spent 1 day and added this feature to game. It is currently working and enemy kingdoms make a peace voting inside and send us offers time to time. Here you can see a peace offer from player's enemy. So it is currently ready but yet I did not get any approve. If it is approved it can be at game at 1.6.2 (1.6.1 tests will be start soon, so low probability to reach it).

Before click right icon
ykbIU.jpg


After click right icon
_KUiZ.jpg

Of course in example they sent us an offer which our kingdom need to pay tribute but sometimes if player kingdom is in a good position at war this will be "enemy is ready to pay tribute to you". In above sample all other our clans are ok with paying 2540 denars. Thats why they make an inside voting with "if enemy pays 2540 denars are you ok for peace". If this peace voting accepted among enemy clans and all our kingdom clans are ok with paying 2540 denars icon appears at right and we give final decision. Normally you know currently a faction does not make inside peace voting if player is vassal at enemy kingdom so only way is player's kingdom to do inside voting for peace currently. This locks player's kingdom in long and everlasting wars currently in some cases.


So next week I will try pushing this feature. We will see what will happen.
Click to expand...
This is absolutely wonderful. Thank you for your hard work that you do in the team
 
mexxico said:
5 days ago I wrote here about I will move this suggestion internal because I 100% agree and at same point with you. I posted your suggestion internal 2 days ago explained case in a long detailed text to avoid a possible reject with explaining why this feature is needed. However I could not get a reply yet. Some testers only replied and they approved game needs this feature.

YC9dA.jpg

Then I wanted to show this is an easy issue and can be implemented without any risk or big work need. I spent 1 day and added this feature to game. It is currently working and enemy kingdoms make a peace voting inside and send us offers time to time. Here you can see a peace offer from player's enemy. So it is currently ready but yet I did not get any approve. If it is approved it can be at game at 1.6.2 (1.6.1 tests will be start soon, so low probability to reach it).

Before click right icon
ykbIU.jpg


After click right icon
_KUiZ.jpg

Of course in example they sent us an offer which our kingdom need to pay tribute but sometimes if player kingdom is in a good position at war this will be "enemy is ready to pay tribute to you". In above sample all other our clans are ok with paying 2540 denars. Thats why they make an inside voting with "if enemy pays 2540 denars are you ok for peace". If this peace voting accepted among enemy clans and all our kingdom clans are ok with paying 2540 denars icon appears at right and we give final decision. Normally you know currently a faction does not make inside peace voting if player is vassal at enemy kingdom so only way is player's kingdom to do inside voting for peace currently. This locks player's kingdom in long and everlasting wars currently in some cases.


So next week I will try pushing this feature. We will see what will happen.
Click to expand...
No offense @mexxico but if I was a developer in your company and saw that post on Slack I would not read it :grin:. It's too long and doesn't have good formatting. Generally, I assume that my colleagues won't read a message if a single paragraph contains more than 4 sentences. I also try to convert those long texts into bullet point lists, which seems to increase the reading rate.
 
bishey said:
No offense @mexxico but if I was a developer in your company and saw that post on Slack I would not read it :grin:. It's too long and doesn't have good formatting. Generally, I assume that my colleagues won't read a message if a single paragraph contains more than 4 sentences. I also try to convert those long texts into bullet point lists, which seems to increase the reading rate.
Click to expand...
Yes you are right. I usually split long texts into paragraphs but here I forget doing it.

We will make it a proper document next week with help of Duh.
 
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bishey said:
No offense @mexxico but if I was a developer in your company and saw that post on Slack I would not read it :grin:. It's too long and doesn't have good formatting. Generally, I assume that my colleagues won't read a message if a single paragraph contains more than 4 sentences. I also try to convert those long texts into bullet point lists, which seems to increase the reading rate.
Click to expand...
Document with better format is ready :
docs.google.com

Peace offer from player's opponent

Peace Offer From Player’s Opponent Explaining How Current System Works : Each clan considers proposing a peace / war voting inside its kingdom. Even if an offer has a positive value it's not guaranteed that it will be proposed. There is also a random factor. All peace / war declarations at ...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Also I see something weird at costs for overriding voting while implementing above feature :
4H7fT.png

Jd4w7.png
 
Last edited:
mexxico said:
Document with better format is ready :
docs.google.com

Peace offer from player's opponent

Peace Offer From Player’s Opponent Explaining How Current System Works : Each clan considers proposing a peace / war voting inside its kingdom. Even if an offer has a positive value it's not guaranteed that it will be proposed. There is also a random factor. All peace / war declarations at ...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Also I see something weird at costs for overriding voting while implementing above feature :
4H7fT.png

Jd4w7.png
Click to expand...
Wait so are you saying the vote should really only cost ((14-3)/3)*150+150 = 700 influence to override? that would make a huge difference.

Also the document looks great! (y)
 
Last edited:
Blood Gryphon said:
Wait so are you saying the vote should really only cost ((14-3)/3)*150+150 = 700 influence to override? that would make a huge difference.
Click to expand...
I think current overriding a voting result cost is too expensive. Player cannot override most decisions (maybe 90-95%). If you examine the code block you can see the problem.

We have 3 vote types :
Slightly favor - cost 20 influence (was 10 before 1.5.9) - effect is 1 - cost per effect is 20 influence
Strongly favor - cost 60 influence (was 40 before 1.5.9) - effect is 2 - cost per effect is 30 influence
Fully Push - cost 150 influence (was 100 before 1.5.9) - effect is 3 - cost per effect is 50 influence

King have to spend 150 influence per each effect (after king is assumed selected fully push at opposite before overriding) currently and this seem like a bug. I asked team about if this is intended or bug.

For example if there are 8 clans want a war / peace :
1 fully push
4 strongly favor
3 slightly favor

total effect is (1 x 3) + (4 x 2) + (3 x 1) = 14

King have to spend (14 - 3) x 150 + 150 = 1800 to override a voting currently. I think this should be (14 - 3) x 50 + 150 = 700 or at most (14 - 3) x 75 + 150 = 975.

Of course this is just a side problem (of course important for gameplay) found while examining these codes for implementing peace offer from player's enemy.
 
mexxico said:
I think current overriding a voting result cost is too expensive. Player cannot override most decisions (maybe 90-95%). If you examine the code block you can see the problem.

We have 3 vote types :
Slightly favor - cost 20 influence (was 10 before 1.5.9) - effect is 1 - cost per effect is 20 influence
Strongly favor - cost 60 influence (was 40 before 1.5.9) - effect is 2 - cost per effect is 30 influence
Fully Push - cost 150 influence (was 100 before 1.5.9) - effect is 3 - cost per effect is 50 influence

King have to spend 150 influence per each effect (after king is assumed selected fully push at opposite before overriding) currently and this seem like a bug. I asked team about if this is intended or bug.

For example if there are 8 clans want a war / peace :
1 fully push
4 strongly favor
3 slightly favor

total effect is (1 x 3) + (4 x 2) + (3 x 1) = 14

King have to spend (14 - 3) x 150 + 150 = 1800 to override a voting currently. I think this should be (14 - 3) x 50 + 150 = 700 or at most (14 - 3) x 75 + 150 = 975.

Of course this is just a side problem (of course important for gameplay) found while examining these codes for implementing peace offer from player's enemy.
Click to expand...
I completely agree its too much and that this adjustment is needed. Nice find!

I'm guessing this document was just submitted so is still being examined by others?
 
mexxico said:
Suggestion is shared at slack previously but there was no proper document. Now this suggestion has also a document. It will be discussed tomorrow I think.
Click to expand...
Awesome, hopefully it is accepted. If it is then we can also start to think about the best way to fix this situation when the player is a vassal as well.
 
mexxico said:
Document with better format is ready :
docs.google.com

Peace offer from player's opponent

Peace Offer From Player’s Opponent Explaining How Current System Works : Each clan considers proposing a peace / war voting inside its kingdom. Even if an offer has a positive value it's not guaranteed that it will be proposed. There is also a random factor. All peace / war declarations at ...
docs.google.com docs.google.com

Also I see something weird at costs for overriding voting while implementing above feature :
4H7fT.png

Jd4w7.png
Click to expand...
finally some good news when this drops i love you ozan you are my big brother
 
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