Information about developments at snowballing problem

[geala]

Aseraio and Khuzaits going strong.
How it happen that Vladia under perform so much?
Also that Sturgia...

From my normal campaigns experience, it usually goes like this: Battania is the starting enemy of WE. The Empire factions are weak by design. Battania takes several settlements from WE. Sooner or later Battania aggroes Vlandia and takes some settlements (most often Sargot). I had it several times that Vlandia made peace with Battania (in one campaign some seconds before finally reconquering the sieged Sargot) without having taken settlements back, just to declare war on Sturgia immediately. From then on it goes down steadily.

If Vlandia and Battania get into war early, without the Battanians first having taken some WE settlements, it's more even. In my last campaign I had set Vlandia and Battania as starting enemies, and Vlandia dominated.

 

[mexxico]

Obviously this is just a single run that we are observing, but the thing that sticks out to me the most, that might be a next step to help with balancing, is that once a Kingdom starts to have clans defect they don't seem to get them back (clearly making them defect less has made a big improvement, good job). Is there something you could add that helps a kingdom focus on recruiting clans if they start to lose them? Maybe focusing on saving and using the kingdom funds to do it?

@mexxico awesome update, can't wait to start testing these fixes.

Obviously this is just a single run that we are observing, but the thing that sticks out to me the most, that might be a next step to help with balancing, is that once a Kingdom starts to have clans defect they don't seem to get them back (clearly making them defect less has made a big improvement, good job). Is there something you could add that helps a kingdom focus on recruiting clans if they start to lose them? Maybe focusing on saving and using the kingdom funds to do it?

Observing Battania go down to 3 towns and then make a major comeback is exactly what I want to see, but I noticed they didn't lose any of their clans when they got down to 3 towns so they technically still had the same fighting force which makes their comeback even easier. You can see in Sturgia case once they lose their clans they are essentially dead.

@RagnarW3 did you copy paste @Blood Gryphon 's post at first page

In that day this post is created (Nov 13 2020) I read this comment but could not find time to reply. Today when I see your post I remembered this post and go back first page again.

Yes, this is a problem. Some factions start to lose their clans because of not fixed economical situation for a long time. Then they cannot get them back because after losing clans things become worse and they lose more settlements and they cannot fix their economy. I am thinking a solution to this but it is very hard to fix this problem without making a cheat and adding random events and giving 1M to a faction with 0.2% daily probability. If this happens they can get their clans back maybe. Otherwise its very hard for a kingdom to change things to opposite after losing 2-3 clans. Maybe we can add several more random events which changes relationships. This can effect too. They suddenly be enemy with their new king and go back to their old kingdom.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

@RagnarW3 did you copy paste @Blood Gryphon 's post at first page

In that day this post is created (Nov 13 2020) I read this comment but could not find time to reply. Today when I see your post I remembered this post and go back first page again.

Yes, this is a problem. Some factions start to lose their clans because of not fixed economical situation for a long time. Then they cannot get them back because after losing clans things become worse and they lose more settlements and they cannot fix their economy. I am thinking a solution to this but it is very hard to fix this problem without making a cheat and adding random events and giving 1M to a faction with 0.2% daily probability. If this happens they can get their clans back maybe. Otherwise its very hard for a kingdom to change things to opposite after losing 2-3 clans. Maybe we can add several more random events which changes relationships. This can effect too. They suddenly be enemy with their new king and go back to their old kingdom.

Lmao I don’t think I would have noticed it was my post, nice catch ?.

I think maybe this is where a revamp of the policy system could really step in to help, like we’ve discussed before. We need a set of policies that sacrifices something small kingdoms don’t need but will save them and vice-versa. So maybe policies that lose money for extra security and one that gives money but loses security or loyalty (something a small kingdom wouldn’t be that impacted by). Have them dynamically change policies based on their situation.

I know the policies aren’t yours and this would be a big push to integrate your side and policies but it would add so much depth compared to the current policy system.

Also maybe new rebellion clans can be less worried about receiving land/money and just focus on joining the weaker factions. They might actually already do this but eventually get recruited by the stronger factions. But you already know this. ?

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Lmao I don’t think I would have noticed it was my post, nice catch ?.

I think maybe this is where a revamp of the policy system could really step in to help, like we’ve discussed before. We need a set of policies that sacrifices something small kingdoms don’t need but will save them and vice-versa. So maybe policies that lose money for extra security and one that gives money but loses security or loyalty (something a small kingdom wouldn’t be that impacted by). Have them dynamically change policies based on their situation.

I know the policies aren’t yours and this would be a big push to integrate your side and policies but it would add so much depth compared to the current policy system.

Also maybe new rebellion clans can be less worried about receiving land/money and just focus on joining the weaker factions. They might actually already do this but eventually get recruited by the stronger factions. But you already know this. ?

+1 agree that Kingdom policies need a rework. Even the way they are presented. Currently its just a big ole list of policies. Maybe they can be grouped up, and put in categories where some policies are similar, or that deal with a specific topic but provide different pros/cons

 

[AJAJP_Juan]

Lmao I don’t think I would have noticed it was my post, nice catch ?.

I think maybe this is where a revamp of the policy system could really step in to help, like we’ve discussed before. We need a set of policies that sacrifices something small kingdoms don’t need but will save them and vice-versa. So maybe policies that lose money for extra security and one that gives money but loses security or loyalty (something a small kingdom wouldn’t be that impacted by). Have them dynamically change policies based on their situation.

I know the policies aren’t yours and this would be a big push to integrate your side and policies but it would add so much depth compared to the current policy system.

Also maybe new rebellion clans can be less worried about receiving land/money and just focus on joining the weaker factions. They might actually already do this but eventually get recruited by the stronger factions. But you already know this. ?

Yeah, I also recall some policies back in the 2018 Gamescon actually decreased relations with vassals or determined clans by tier or culture, perhaps could be worth revisiting them.

 

[niekdegrijze]

@RagnarW3 did you copy paste @Blood Gryphon 's post at first page

In that day this post is created (Nov 13 2020) I read this comment but could not find time to reply. Today when I see your post I remembered this post and go back first page again.

Yes, this is a problem. Some factions start to lose their clans because of not fixed economical situation for a long time. Then they cannot get them back because after losing clans things become worse and they lose more settlements and they cannot fix their economy. I am thinking a solution to this but it is very hard to fix this problem without making a cheat and adding random events and giving 1M to a faction with 0.2% daily probability. If this happens they can get their clans back maybe. Otherwise its very hard for a kingdom to change things to opposite after losing 2-3 clans. Maybe we can add several more random events which changes relationships. This can effect too. They suddenly be enemy with their new king and go back to their old kingdom.

Could the tribute payed to a stronger kingdom be a big factor in the downward economic spiral ?

 

[niekdegrijze]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I get the impression that 1 of the reasons kingdoms get strong is because the empire factions are weak. Another solution can be that when an empire faction is down to a curtain low point it will join the second weakest empire faction. I know they are in a bitter civil war, but you could presume they rather join with their rival then be totally conquered by an outside culture.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Could the tribute payed to a stronger kingdom be a big factor in the downward economic spiral ?

This is something I've wondered about as well and I would guess does have an decent impact.

Do tribute pricing take into account the wealth of a faction who has to pay? Does it look at how many clans can help pay, because the less clans the more each clan has to pay for that tribute. Maybe for AI vs AI factions their tributes to each other can shift for these factors, or maybe tributes become a % of your kingdoms total wealth so that it never becomes a problem just an inconvenience. Basically depending on the situation maybe tribute can be between 0-10% of wealth, maybe even a max of 5% because we have to consider a weak faction may need to make peace and pay tribute to all other kingdoms (so worst case scenario is 70% of all wealth for 7 peace treaties or 35% if at 5%).

 

[Dabos37]

I think the bigger money sink for the AI, is what @mexxico found about AI lords getting elite armies really fast. I am paying 500-1000 per clan member party, and not sure how the AI is really paying these kind of expensive armies.

Why are we discussing again about AI lords economy (just asking)? Are you detecting lords defecting easily in 1.5.6? As far I have seen, lords defections take some time and much harder to happen in 1.5.6.

I am really curious about what can we expect from 1.5.7. Cannot wait to run some tests in that version.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

I think the bigger money sink for the AI, is what @mexxico found about AI lords getting elite armies really fast. I am paying 500-1000 per clan member party, and not sure how the AI is really paying these kind of expensive armies.

Why are we discussing again about AI lords economy (just asking)? Are you detecting lords defecting easily in 1.5.6? As far I have seen, lords defections take some time and much harder to happen in 1.5.6.

I am really curious about what can we expect from 1.5.7. Cannot wait to run some tests in that version.

Someone copy pasted one of my comments from the first page, where I observed in Mexxicos 1.5.6 test that factions seemed to truly die out once clans start to defect. Mexxico answered the comment by letting us know that the problem is once a kingdoms economy is in the trash lords will start to defect, so unless he adds in a cheat that gives poor factions a bunch of money when lords start to consider defecting there is not an easy way to fix it. So we jumped back into discussing AI lords economy and I can't help myself but complicate things

 

[Dabos37]

Someone copy pasted one of my comments from the first page, where I observed in Mexxicos 1.5.6 test that factions seemed to truly die out once clans start to defect. Mexxico answered the comment by letting us know that the problem is once a kingdoms economy is in the trash lords will start to defect, so unless he adds in a cheat that gives poor factions a bunch of money when lords start to consider defecting there is not an easy way to fix it. So we jumped back into discussing AI lords economy and I can't help myself but complicate things

Yes, I have read the copy paste . The question about why we are talking about lords economy is more related to know people are detecting issues related to lords defecting too fast in 1.5.6. As far I have seen, it does not happen too often the first 1000 days.

 

[mexxico]

Anyway even this thing is problem I do not think it is something major. Currently defection is already slowed down and factions can make come backs not after losing 2-3 clans but after losing 5-6 fiefs. In first 20 years there happen so less defections. I need to implement micromanagement of clan parties and policy selection AI (which is 0 currently) and campaign AI optimization for consoles. I have too many things to do now. So I will skip this problem. Its minor. When I see copy-paste text just wanted to answer that question asked 45 days ago.

As said previously in 1.5.7 I expect a snowball score average of 45 so snowball thing is not a major problem anymore (if it is not broken in future with new features). We need to spend work power to other areas.

 

[Dabos37]

Anyway even this thing is problem I do not think it is something major. Currently defection is already slowed down and factions can make come backs not after losing 2-3 clans but after losing 5-6 fiefs. In first 20 years there happen so less defections. I need to implement micromanagement of clan parties and policy selection AI (which is 0 currently) and campaign AI optimization for consoles. I have too many things to do now. So I will skip this problem. Its minor. When I see copy-paste text just wanted to answer that question asked 45 days ago.

As said previously in 1.5.7 I expect a snowball score average of 45 so snowball thing is not a major problem anymore (if it is not broken in future with new features). We need to spend work power to other areas.

“AI optimization for consoles”

What does this mean exactly? Will PC players notice something related this? Please do not add any downgrade for the AI just for making the game compatible for consoles, this won’t probably be the case but who knows.

On the topic, 40-45 snowballing score is actually pretty OK. Just for curious, have you run tests after all 1.5.7 changes? Thanks!

 

[Medivhtratos]

Ok this is off topic here, but in my playthrough merchants, gang leaders and artisans have at day 1100 almost negative power.... Like - 1578. They just doesn't get lost.

 

[Blood Gryphon]

Ok this is off topic here, but in my playthrough merchants, gang leaders and artisans have at day 1100 almost negative power.... Like - 1578. They just doesn't get lost.

Yeah they changed it so that the amount of notables in a town is based on its prosperity and the only way to lose them now is once they die of old age. If your towns prosperity is too low then a new one wont be spawned until it rises again.

 

[Apocal]

Ok this is off topic here, but in my playthrough merchants, gang leaders and artisans have at day 1100 almost negative power.... Like - 1578. They just doesn't get lost.

As long as they own any asset -- caravan, shop, corner in the town -- notables won't be lost.

 

[GrandiousBrain]

Yeah, I also recall some policies back in the 2018 Gamescon actually decreased relations with vassals or determined clans by tier or culture, perhaps could be worth revisiting them.

They probabaly scraped that same as with King commanding you who and waht to atttack,where to be possitioned and wich armt/soldier unit you will command.Same with the Tactics and frmation used by Ai depending on Ai/NPCs lvl,skill,character.We all saw and were presentd with that at Gamescom and given vidoe proof of that being implemented in the game yet at EA almost all features/mechanics we were presented thruout years via blogs,updates,video trailers,gamescom events are removed/non present in current game and dont know if it will even be brought back.Those gameplays showed AI/NPC lords actualy being inteligent for once and showing tactics and not just how its now where if NPC is attacker he attacks and if NPCS defending/being aattacked it stays back wich is Warband all over again in that aprt of the game while at gamescom we were promised and given atcual AI/NPC lord HUGE improvement with mechanics of skill vlv,lv and NPCs charactersisics that determened if NPC will attck bold or will seek higher groudn and be more strategical about aproach or will do feints and so on.Also we got to see we as mercenary or vassal being commanded by the grand commader that gave us to command certain units and then giving directions with text pop up of who,when to attack,encircle,hit flanks and so on.All that that has been shows is non existant in Banenrlord and as time passes all tha was shown in gamescome looks more of an add or sceme rather than an actual thing/feature that will be in the game and was juts made for gamescom build.

 

[lunelune2413]

+1 agree that Kingdom policies need a rework. Even the way they are presented. Currently its just a big ole list of policies. Maybe they can be grouped up, and put in categories where some policies are similar, or that deal with a specific topic but provide different pros/cons

A couple of unique policies for each culture would be an awesome addition in my opinion.

 

[mexxico]

Yeah they changed it so that the amount of notables in a town is based on its prosperity and the only way to lose them now is once they die of old age. If your towns prosperity is too low then a new one wont be spawned until it rises again.

That disappearence because of negative power is not changed. Probably they are not disappear because they own any asset. However this need to be checked of course if they have no power they should also lose their assets but I do not look these parts. Will pass it to team.

 

[D0c1]

same as with King commanding you who and waht to atttack,where to be possitioned and wich armt/soldier unit you will command

have you tried joining an army? this was in the early access from the beginning.

and lords already seek defensive positions on the map.

the thing that isn't yet in the game is personalities affecting commands.