Information about developments at snowballing problem

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sniparsexe said:
no... this is a game and it doesn't have as many factors as real life does right? So you can't just say "nomadic tribes took those lands in winter"
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so...you make an argument based on real life snow/winter and i can't because...? please show me in the forum rules, thanks.
 
Anushtegin said:
why should your factor be considered but not mine? is it you to make that call? show me in the rules pls.
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Do you really want me to explain? Aight.
We are talking about speed here, let me state it again so you can understand it! SPEED.

I'm explaining something about speed right? Horses would probably go slower if not equal to infantries in snow, and I'm explaining it by giving formula for pressure, it is a real-life thing but it is just about speed. and you come here and say "but nomadic tribes managed to take those lands in winter" does that make any sense to you? So nomadic tribes managed to take those lands because they were faster?
  • manpower
  • tactics
  • culture
  • adapting
  • horses
these don't exist? Because in your argument, they don't. An Aserai mamluk riding a desert horse didn't see snow in his life can go to Sturgia lands and move faster than sturgian infantry? How does this make any sense to you lol
 
About the army speed, if we wish to stick with realism, when it comes to ancient/medieval times it were baggage trains that slowed the armies down the most. No army could march faster than the slowest baggage trains. Reducing the amount of baggage trains speeds up the march considerably, becouse the more trans you have, the more problems it create - carts can get stuck in mud, axles can brake etc. This is why romans forced their soldiers to carry a lot of the stuff on their back.

Having that in mind it's rather obvious that an army that contains large amounts of horsmen and horses will move faster, simply because they can use less baggage trains and keep a lot of the equipment carried by horses. This is one of the reasons why mongol and other nomad armies were able to move so fast and why cavalry speed bonus makes a lot of sense.

Ironically, when it comes to forests and snow, horse-centric armies will have the same advantage in these environments, precisely because of the need of less baggage trains. Carts in forests will mean that whenever a tree trunk blocks the road (which might happen quite often in old forsests after the storm) it will have to be removed. And wheeled carts are real pain in the butt to move in the winter as the marching amry turns the road into mud in which thewheels will slide,get stuck etc. So, speaking about realism, khuzaits should actually have a speed bonus in forests and snow, but I would never give it to them in game, as they are enaugh of a pain in the butt already :smile:
 
**Iphicrates** said:
About the army speed, if we wish to stick with realism, when it comes to ancient/medieval times it were baggage trains that slowed the armies down the most. No army could march faster than the slowest baggage trains. Reducing the amount of baggage trains speeds up the march considerably, becouse the more trans you have, the more problems it create - carts can get stuck in mud, axles can brake etc. This is why romans forced their soldiers to carry a lot of the stuff on their back.

Having that in mind it's rather obvious that an army that contains large amounts of horsmen and horses will move faster, simply because they can use less baggage trains and keep a lot of the equipment carried by horses. This is one of the reasons why mongol and other nomad armies were able to move so fast and why cavalry speed bonus makes a lot of sense.

Ironically, when it comes to forests and snow, horse-centric armies will have the same advantage in these environments, precisely because of the need of less baggage trains. Carts in forests will mean that whenever a tree trunk blocks the road (which might happen quite often in old forsests after the storm) it will have to be removed. And wheeled carts are real pain in the butt to move in the winter as the marching amry turns the road into mud in which thewheels will slide,get stuck etc. So, speaking about realism, khuzaits should actually have a speed bonus in forests and snow, but I would never give it to them in game, as they are enaugh of a pain in the butt already :smile:
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if you add everything to a game just because it's realistic.. good luck with that. Uh and also, in the game when I don't carry ANY loot, a 1000 man khuzait army can move faster than me in a forest lol. yeah sensible
 
sniparsexe said:
if you add everything to a game just because it's realistic.. good luck with that. Uh and also, in the game when I don't carry ANY loot, a 1000 man khuzait army can move faster than me in a forest lol. yeah sensible
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Yeah, I agree, that's why I said that I wouldn't add these bonuses in-game. Actually, I'm not sure if its the case in game, but I think I red in some post that IA lords don't get loot after battle but get the money equivalent instantly. Well,IF they have to carry this loot into town first, THAN sell it, and if the loot will slow them don conciderably it might actually help reduce khuzait army speed a lot I think. Just a though that came to my mind after reading your answer. Right now Khuzait can roam through enemy territory with no effort, defeating weaker parties, raiding villages and taking huge amount of loot-money, which then turn them ridiculously rich. Slowing them down by loot after they win a considerable battle might get IA more time to prepare, get reinfocements etc.

It was a common strategy aginast Tatar raids in XVI/XVII century Poland. They let Tatars do their pludering. And when they got slowed down by loot, polish armies hunted them down.
 
sniparsexe said:
Do you really want me to explain? Aight.
We are talking about speed here, let me state it again so you can understand it! SPEED.

I'm explaining something about speed right? Horses would probably go slower if not equal to infantries in snow, and I'm explaining it by giving formula for pressure, it is a real-life thing but it is just about speed. and you come here and say "but nomadic tribes managed to take those lands in winter" does that make any sense to you? So nomadic tribes managed to take those lands because they were faster?
  • manpower
  • tactics
  • culture
  • adapting
  • horses
these don't exist? Because in your argument, they don't. An Aserai mamluk riding a desert horse didn't see snow in his life can go to Sturgia lands and move faster than sturgian infantry? How does this make any sense to you lol
Click to expand...

the mongols were faster because they used the many frozen rivers of russia as highways. probably this factor did not occur to you. but it gave them the speed advantage that you're talking about. and still the grazing of the horse herds in summer also contributed to said speed because they needed less fodder and mongol horses could dig the snow for the gras underneath, while horses bred by urban civilization depended entirely on fodder, meanign ease of logistics which also contributed to overall strategic speed.
 
Anushtegin said:
the mongols were faster because they used the many frozen rivers of russia as highways. probably this factor did not occur to you. but it gave them the speed advantage that you're talking about. and still the grazing of the horse herds in summer also contributed to said speed because they needed less fodder and mongol horses could dig the snow for the gras underneath, while horses bred by urban civilization depended entirely on fodder, meanign ease of logistics which also contributed to overall strategic speed.
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okay let's say mongols were faster, arabs were faster too in this situation? they are living in a semi-desert. Does that make any sense to you? Mongols were adapted to ice and snow, they were already living in a cold & snowy climate. In this situation, arabs are also running faster? Vlandians are also running faster? horses that wear heavy armor and aren't used to cold?

and again, if I don't carry anything, a 1000 man khuzait army can still catch me. IN A FOREST.
 
i seriously don't know what your problem is here. do you want to argue with real history? do you want me to lie and fake history?

even if we go by your original bad argument, horses are stronger, more athletic animals with longer legs and will have an easier time gettign out of snow compared to humans whose feet are long and flat and get stuck in deep snow much easier.

here's a couple videos from youtube:






bonus aserai arabian horse in deep snow:
 
Anushtegin said:
i seriously don't know what your problem is here. do you want to argue with real history? do you want me to lie and fake history?

even if we go by your original bad argument, horses are stronger, more athletic animals with longer legs and will have an easier time gettign out of snow compared to humans whose feet are long and flat and get stuck in deep snow much easier.

here's a couple videos from youtube:






bonus aserai arabian horse in deep snow:
Click to expand...

1st video: No rider, no armor. and it doesn't move very fast either.
2nd video. Snow isn't deep, no rider no armor.
3rd video. Rider is there, still it needs average 30 kgs of weight. no armor either. and it doesn't move very fast too.
4th video, again no rider no armor, snow isn't that deep and it usually moves on hard snow. and I checked the channel, they are living in Canada so the horse is already adapted to snow.

I checked their channels, these horses are already adapted to snow. We are talking about a horse that isn't used to snow, a rider who isn't used to snow. both are wearing armour (horse and rider)

and if you watch the first time reaction of horses, they always try to lay down or taste the snow, or some of them are getting scared and running back to their shelter, and those are trained horses.
 
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Anushtegin said:
ok guys, rewrite your history books. mongols invaded the rus in summer now, it's official...
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you still talk about Mongols? haha. Shoulda seen this one coming. sorry for arguing with you mate, it's like you keep going back to Mongols because I guess that's your only point? Anyway, I won't reply from now on. it's a game, and in order to balance things they can and should do it. Any arguments here? like this isn't a game or something? or straight back to Mongols again :grin:
 
Do Bannerlord simulate frozen rivers or marshes?
Can you even cross rivers(not on a bridge)?
Do cavalry units use spare steeds?
Do you need extra forage(grain for example) to feed horses?
Do snow is even simulated in game?
Do it differentiate between wet and soft or hard and dry snow?
I think you know the answers.
Heck game still grant bonus to autocalc for cavalry in sieges. You are arguing for no gain other than your ego and definitely not for a betterment of the game.
We are talking about better game balancing and currently OP Khuzait mobility that upset it.
Slowing down Cavalry in certain situation could balance it - maybe by making it seasonal, maybe giving advantage of mobility to infantry based armies on their own ground(Sturgia - Snow, Battanian -Forest).
Can you keep your autism down for purpose of betterment of the game?
 
Sarissofoi said:
Do Bannerlord simulate frozen rivers or marshes?
Can you even cross rivers(not on a bridge)?
Do cavalry units use spare steeds?
Do you need extra forage(grain for example) to feed horses?
Do snow is even simulated in game?
Do it differentiate between wet and soft or hard and dry snow?
I think you know the answers.
Heck game still grant bonus to autocalc for cavalry in sieges. You are arguing for no gain other than your ego and definitely not for a betterment of the game.
We are talking about better game balancing and currently OP Khuzait mobility that upset it.
Slowing down Cavalry in certain situation could balance it - maybe by making it seasonal, maybe giving advantage of mobility to infantry based armies on their own ground(Sturgia - Snow, Battanian -Forest).
Can you keep your autism down for purpose of betterment of the game?
Click to expand...
if you read my previous messages, you can clearly understand that I want it to happen. again, this is a game not a real life simulation, as you said. Even if I'm wrong, or if Anushtegin is wrong nothing will change, in order to stop Khuzaits dominating, we gotta do something and again as you said slowing cav is a good and easy choice. Even if it makes sense or even if it doesn't make any sense.

By the way, they already removed autocalc bonus for cavalry in sieges
 
Sarissofoi said:
Thanks for info about sieges.
So Cavalry get bonus in field only or they gone with the cav bonus altogether?
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no, they only removed it from sieges, it's still there in field battles. But right now they are trying to implement a terrain based bonus system, in some terrains (like plains) cav will give you a bonus, in some terrains (probably like mountains & hills) archers will give you a bonus
 
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