Information about developments at snowballing problem

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Damn mexxico, such a good update and definetely worth the wait. And no need to stress for how you wrote, it still great.
Still looking forward to this update, quess it's time to try new things.
 
Thank you for the analysis, it is clear a LOT of work went into it!

My question is, what is the goal? What would be considered the optimal kingdom mechanics? I am genuinely interested, since I have not yet played a Bannerlord campaign past about 120 days, so I do have no idea what late-game feels like or what it should feel like.

I understand that one kingdom dominating most of the map after a few years is bad. On the other hand, if the map looks the same after 40 years as it did in the beginning, except for maybe 2-3 cities, is that the ideal outcome? Do players want the NPC kingdoms to be of equal strength, locked in a stalemate? Perhaps so that the consequences of player actions are the most visible (i.e. if the world changes significantly, the player knows it had to be his doing)?

Lets assume that is the case (i.e. the goal is for NPC kingdoms to remain roughly equal throughout time without player intervention). If that is achieved by kingdoms mostly trading one town and a few fortresses back and forth, so that the map looks roughly the same no matter at what time during the 40 year playthrough you look at it (this is a simplification of course, but I hope it illustrates the point), doesnt that make the world kind of boring? Again, maybe that is the desired goal, the world should be kind of "boring", or rather stable, without player interaction. But in my eyes, a more violent, changing world sounds more interesting. And I think it could be achieved even while keeping the primary goal of "factions are not eliminated and no faction ends up dominating the whole map forever". Meaning that wild swings happen, lots of territories change hands, but some kind of equilibrium is always restored to prevent a total collapse.

One way to achieve this could be some kind of kingdom management mechanic, where the larger a kingdom is, the more difficult it is to manage, the less stable it is and the more likely it is to break up, be ganged up on, etc. I believe Total War: Rome II had such a mechanic, where larger empires suffered greater and greater penalties (more internal political strife, more expensive upkeep of armies, more likely to be viewed negatively by others in diplomacy), so that they were attacked more, had more rebellions, and it was overall more difficult to keep the empire together.

Not only would this prevent snowballing of NPC kingdoms (violent swings could still happen, where a kingdom radically expands, but it would be unsustainable and it would break up, or be pushed back again), but it would also make late-game for players more interesting. As I said, I never got to late-game myself, but I read from others that once the player-owned kingdom reaches a certain point, the game turns into a boring, one-dimensional sequence of taking one fief after another. Making a larger kingdom more difficult to manage, defend and keep together would make the late-game more interesting (perhaps even shifting focus from constantly mopping up armies on the battlefield to proper kingdom management).

This mechanic could possibly (though questionable and perhaps not necessary) be paired with an opposite mechanic for very small kingdoms, making them even easier to manage and defend. Again, this would help NPC kingdoms bounce back, it would make it more difficult to completely finish off a kingdom (again making late-game more challenging). Also, it would make the start of a player-owned kingdom less challenging - of course if starting the one's own kingdom is already too easy, it would be counter-productive.

If I completely misunderstood the state of the game because I'm a noob, feel free to rip into me, I'm interested in all opinions and feedback.
 
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I dont know its addressed or not, but i notice something.

I joined northern empire, because there are weak and i´l try to help them a bit. So, the game goes along, i fight the khuzaits back to husn fulq, battania lost a bit and western empire lost a got chunk of its territory later on. but i noticed a little castle, the last remaining from southern empire.
So i take a closer look and see little bit of troops in the garrison and some parties with under 10 troops sitting there and do nothing. Also literally nothing, no looter hunting, no troops gathering, that sort of nothing.
Would be easy to take and go further in the game but, i decided different. i searched for Rhagaea and surprise, surprise she sit in her old Town and does nothing. So i decided to give her some money and see what happend.
First of all i give her 300K Moneys and get 5(!) Points from that. Srsly... She had nothing. Zero money! She should be a little more grateful... That Old...

But ok, it is an experiment now. it´s ok.

So i watched the castle again and at some time, little activation startet. Some of the Parties goes straight to the next city and get some troopes. Funny, the ignore their own villages near them. There try to refill there garrison and so i play my game a little further and hunt some western parties.
After some time, i go back to the little caste to see progress and, there was nothing anymore. what happen there?

Also i saved, leave my actual kingdom and joined southern empire. BIG MISTAKE! The Pay almost 20k MONEY EVERY DAY AS TRIBUTE TO THE OTHER FACTIONS! 20k every day!
No Wonder there stay in that little castle and do nothing. No money means no troops, no food, no nothing. I didn search that but, i am pretty sure, there are no caravans either.

So maybe, Factions with less then, lets say, 2 castles and or towns, should cut out of the tribute system.
 
One issue that I brought up in my initial impression of the game is that the seas on the world map don't seem to be taken into account when factions are determining targets to conquer. This is most detrimental to Sturgia, the empires, and Aserai. So for example when the AI in native Sturgia territory looks at the northern empire for targets it often picks cities on the other side of the sea, as if they were right on the border. This causes the armies to take too long in getting to their target and leaves them less able to respond when khuzait inevitably attacks one of their castles/towns.

The world map needs the seas to be 'void' space so the borders are only touching where armies can move. If voiding it isn't a possibility then programming the seas as an unconquerable territory might work though that could make things act oddly.

Any way its fixed would likely make for an organic fix to khuzait/battania easily taking out Sturgia and the empires.
 
Also @mexxico did death play a role? With marriage between clans off so many clans start dying our around 2500 days
The current marriages and children being activated at 18 fixed probably extended the amount of nobles still around for his test. But you are right after that first generations kids are all dead its over, so probably around year 60 (~5,000 days) in the game without the player killing anyone. I am definitely interested if his version had marriages in yet
 
Brilliant work. Thanks Mexico. I know a lot of tedious analytics happened to figure all this out.

I can't wait to test it out. Its about time for me to put Medieval Dynasty back on the shelf and jump back into Bannerlord.

This is super exciting and I don't even know what goodies are in 1.5.5.
 
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Well, this is a lot of analysis. Thanks for taking time to explain all this. I just have a few questions:
One more development is clans do not care only king relation now while defecting they also care how is their relation with other clans inside that kingdom.

Is this a one-way impact? Is having good relations with other clans only for holding them in their faction? Or is it also clans having negative relations with others actively pushing them out? And does it tie into the existing clan expulsion proposal?

To fix this problem I removed one condition at influence gain from supporter notables. Now supporter notables of a clan give influence to clans even owner of their settlement is another clan. So this is a good passive influence income for NPC clans. Even they lose their settlements they can gain influence from their supporters.

Was the issue with gaining supporters ever balanced? Before it was almost impossible, even with 100 relations, to ever get a supporter. You literally had to wait for a notable to fall off (due to low power) and then wait for years for the replacement notable to (maybe) flip over to your clan. After a twenty year play through with 233 Charm I think I had four supporters total.
 
Created a kingdom budget and any clan having 100K+ money start to give 0.5% of their (money - 100K) to kingdom wallet daily.
Ohhh, damn I thought about that when I wrote mechanics for the kingdom officials. Now that there is a kingdom budget, officials must be in the game. So much can be done with the kingdom's budget.
For example: it will be possible to steal money from the budget or allocate money to other settlements, or, on the contrary, pay even more money to poor clans, collect additional taxes.
 
I know it is not good having AI only tricks but this addition can be applied to player also in future. I did not want to take risk. We can start with npc clans first. It can change in future. I can give you a list next week.
Amazing job as usual, mexxico!! Thank you so much for your dedication and effort.
Having this list would be really amazing, looking forward to it!
 
Was the issue with gaining supporters ever balanced? Before it was almost impossible, even with 100 relations, to ever get a supporter. You literally had to wait for a notable to fall off (due to low power) and then wait for years for the replacement notable to (maybe) flip over to your clan. After a twenty year play through with 233 Charm I think I had four supporters total.

I never noticed "supporters" in my playtrhoughs, what they are and what's their effect?
 
Well, this is a lot of analysis. Thanks for taking time to explain all this. I just have a few questions:


Is this a one-way impact? Is having good relations with other clans only for holding them in their faction? Or is it also clans having negative relations with others actively pushing them out? And does it tie into the existing clan expulsion proposal?



Was the issue with gaining supporters ever balanced? Before it was almost impossible, even with 100 relations, to ever get a supporter. You literally had to wait for a notable to fall off (due to low power) and then wait for years for the replacement notable to (maybe) flip over to your clan. After a twenty year play through with 233 Charm I think I had four supporters total.

It is two way effect. Having negative relations with other clan members also push them out. However relations are only side effect now in defections. Real effect is financial situation of clan. If they have any fiefs defection of that clan is usually so rare. There is also another mechanic maybe lots of players are unaware. If a clan’s all fiefs are surroundered by fiefs of another kingdom and if these fiefs are left a bit further to current kingdom’s other fiefs it is easier for that clan to defect to surroundering kingdom.

We also have problems in relation mechanics. Currently relations between different faction’s clans 95% be worse and worse by time passes because we do not have any mechanics for giving positive relations to npc clans which are in different factions. So by time hostile actions happen and they have more and more enemies, I will focus on this problem in future to make relations more balanced over time.

Yes supporters mechanic is currently not known by lots of players and it is so hard to gain new supporters. Even you have 100 relation with a notable as you said you cannot get him as supporter. It is a known problem. We should do something there to make gaining supporter a bit easier however supporters of clans should not change too much also because they are passive influence income source and they are useful for comebacks of weakened factions left without fiefs.
 
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Nice stuff @mexxico , thank you very much for this amazing job and information.

I blame you because now I cannot enjoy the game in 1.5.4 now after reading this, and the waiting for 1.5.6 will feel so long for me. Cannot wait to test it :smile: !
 
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Good stuff. Really like the idea of the graph.
Is it possible to get something also showing +/- relations between kingdoms (ex. who is more likely to declare war and when)?
 
We also have problems in relation mechanics. Currently relations between different faction’s clans 95% be worse and worse by time passes because we do not have any mechanics for giving positive relations to npc clans which are in different factions. So by time hostile actions happen and they have more and more enemies, I will focus on this problem in future to make relations more balanced over time.

Maybe interfactional marriages? The marriage could also decrease a chance of war if an influential clan has some of their members married to other faction notables, so this could increase faction security. Realistically, such marriages should be more likely to happen between factions that don't share borders (such as Sturgia and Aserai), as the risk of war among neighboring nations is inevitable. Then, related clans can visit each other during peace times (return of the warband feasts?), taking part of other faction's tournaments etc, so the relation could further increase.
 
I like the direction you are going, but shouldn't the empire factions be trying to kill each other (to unify the empire?) Would it make sense to have each of the empire factions to be more aggro toward each other and less likely to make peace with each other?

Also are you using leaky buckets for any of your ai attitude adjustments over time?

Also, whenever possible (except for difficulty adjustments - that should be most of the time), PLEASE have the player have the options of the ai (and vice versa)
 
because rebellions will happen in mostly captured towns with low loyality and new rebel clans will want to join previous kingdom (which has same culture with settlement) mostly.
will rebellions ever choose to go independent and create a "new" kingdom instead of joining old kingdom or joining another kingdom?
will rebellions occur if they hate the current leader of their own faction without the interference of another kingdom?
 
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