Information about developments at snowballing problem

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Yeah for sure, I don't know who's in charge but all ranged units should be on the walls or other place where they can fire on a attackers, at a certain thresh hold of infantry loss at the entrance point(ladder, breach wall, tower) then a large amount should fall back to the ground level and fire on the attackers trickling through the entrances. As it is there's like 1/4of ranged actually able to shoot attackers and the rest often in blobs not doing anything and of course once then enemy is inside they're in a useless position for the most part.
yes I hope archers will become more effective, some suggestions:
- archers manning all available windows and parapets spots. I have noticed archers in the back of towers standing still while shooting spots remain empty.
- archers moving behind cover between shots
- archers leaving te wall to the street to punish the attacker on the wall + infantry blocking acces to the street/tower.

Right now it does not feel punishing enough to win a siege.

a suggestion for yet to develop siege scenes:
 

Arcaian

Sergeant at Arms
Basically it is done by hand.
If you want you can use my mod (I will update it today, changing the data format).
But it is still raw txt data and I'm using a pivot table in excel to create the above tables.
With your mod outputting it straight to raw text files, it'd be pretty easy to knock up a little python or R script that translates that over into the tables and figures being made here. If I end up with some time I could have a look at it, but if it's raw text separated by commas or whitespace, something as simple as pandas' read_csv will likely do the trick, followed by a matplotlib/seaborn barplot. Might help speed things up! :smile:
 

Spinozart1

Squire
With your mod outputting it straight to raw text files, it'd be pretty easy to knock up a little python or R script that translates that over into the tables and figures being made here. If I end up with some time I could have a look at it, but if it's raw text separated by commas or whitespace, something as simple as pandas' read_csv will likely do the trick, followed by a matplotlib/seaborn barplot. Might help speed things up! :smile:
I'm a noob and the mod is the best I can do at this point.
Maybe one more year (or more?) and I may understand what you are suggesting :lol:
My mod is just compiling information more like a querry and then exporting it to txt file.
Of course you are welcome to improve it (will not be difficult) with more fancy things, would be great (and I will learn from you as well!).
 
yes I hope archers will become more effective, some suggestions:
- archers manning all available windows and parapets spots. I have noticed archers in the back of towers standing still while shooting spots remain empty.
- archers moving behind cover between shots
- archers leaving te wall to the street to punish the attacker on the wall + infantry blocking acces to the street/tower.

Right now it does not feel punishing enough to win a siege.

a suggestion for yet to develop siege scenes:

To your suggestion they also need to make the siege towers taller and have the ramp land on the parapet wall so defending AI cant swarm the tower
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Fixes
  • Fixed a bug that caused most parties to have low gold and become poor after a couple of game years.
Hey Dejan or @Duh_TaleWorlds could you give us some info on this one? I'm curious to what it was

Edit: Just did a quick 5 year test on 1.6.2.1 and it did see a minor improvement but still seems to have a major dropoff in 5 years.

DPO5G.png
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Hey Dejan or @Duh_TaleWorlds could you give us some info on this one? I'm curious to what it was

Edit: Just did a quick 5 year test on 1.6.2.1 and it did see a minor improvement but still seems to have a major dropoff in 5 years.

DPO5G.png

This is probably related to the reverting changes we got in the 1.6.2 release. Sometimes when they push a last minute fix to a patch, it appears in the next patch or hotfix notes.

And yes, I have just tested it and anything is the same. Most of clans are still Poor.
 

Spinozart1

Squire
5 years test before yesterday's hotfix (26/08/2021)
1084​
1089​
factionclanStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
6168​
837.784​
25​
6911​
521.822​
25​
battania
4332​
823.458​
18​
5226​
466.637​
20​
empire
4888​
885.221​
21​
7419​
1.264.702​
23​
empire_s
5243​
815.876​
22​
4736​
609.308​
21​
empire_w
4800​
734.956​
20​
5257​
223.682​
17​
khuzait
5110​
815.101​
21​
5248​
346.426​
23​
sturgia
5297​
805.581​
22​
4736​
145.326​
19​
vlandia
6150​
706.460​
24​
5437​
313.628​
25​
Total général
4332​
6.424.437​
173​
4736​
3.891.531​
173​

5 years test after yesterday's hotfix (26/08/2021)
1084​
1089​
factionclanStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
6470​
838.342​
25​
7081​
505.947​
25​
battania
4791​
823.858​
18​
5282​
338.693​
19​
empire
4846​
885.325​
21​
3890​
313.442​
14​
empire_s
5239​
815.738​
22​
4072​
280.597​
19​
empire_w
4801​
735.009​
20​
7090​
717.067​
25​
khuzait
5028​
815.015​
21​
6325​
671.401​
27​
sturgia
5416​
806.097​
22​
4748​
441.098​
21​
vlandia
5881​
705.858​
24​
5228​
263.903​
23​
Total général
4791​
6.425.242​
173​
3890​
3.532.148​
173​

There are 3 2 (EDIT) very rich clans and they are all minor factions type => means no fiefs...
 
Last edited:

madnessario

Knight
5 years test before yesterday's patch
1084​
1089​
factionclanStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
6168​
837.784​
25​
6911​
521.822​
25​
battania
4332​
823.458​
18​
5226​
466.637​
20​
empire
4888​
885.221​
21​
7419​
1.264.702​
23​
empire_s
5243​
815.876​
22​
4736​
609.308​
21​
empire_w
4800​
734.956​
20​
5257​
223.682​
17​
khuzait
5110​
815.101​
21​
5248​
346.426​
23​
sturgia
5297​
805.581​
22​
4736​
145.326​
19​
vlandia
6150​
706.460​
24​
5437​
313.628​
25​
Total général
4332​
6.424.437​
173​
4736​
3.891.531​
173​

5 years test after yesterday's patch
1084​
1089​
factionclanStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
6470​
838.342​
25​
7081​
505.947​
25​
battania
4791​
823.858​
18​
5282​
338.693​
19​
empire
4846​
885.325​
21​
3890​
313.442​
14​
empire_s
5239​
815.738​
22​
4072​
280.597​
19​
empire_w
4801​
735.009​
20​
7090​
717.067​
25​
khuzait
5028​
815.015​
21​
6325​
671.401​
27​
sturgia
5416​
806.097​
22​
4748​
441.098​
21​
vlandia
5881​
705.858​
24​
5228​
263.903​
23​
Total général
4791​
6.425.242​
173​
3890​
3.532.148​
173​

There are 3 very rich clans and they are all minor factions type => means no fiefs...
Is it possible that the minor clans are that rich because of the constant war between the factions? In the same manner, the factions lose most of their money because of less prosperity/tax income/rebellions? Or am I far off here (apologies; I do not have your experience in this)?

Also, in the before table it seems that the empire is an outlier; other than than, it appears that the total is similar in both cases.
 

NPC99

Baron
M&BWBWF&SVC
Is it possible that the minor clans are that rich because of the constant war between the factions? In the same manner, the factions lose most of their money because of less prosperity/tax income/rebellions? Or am I far off here (apologies; I do not have your experience in this)?

Also, in the before table it seems that the empire is an outlier; other than than, it appears that the total is similar in both cases.
I assume landless minor clans without traditional sources of income are subsidised to keep them in the game. IDK why some if them become very rich unless factions needing mercenaries start bidding excessive amounts for their services.
@Bannerman Man might know.
 

Spinozart1

Squire
Is it possible that the minor clans are that rich because of the constant war between the factions? In the same manner, the factions lose most of their money because of less prosperity/tax income/rebellions? Or am I far off here (apologies; I do not have your experience in this)?

Also, in the before table it seems that the empire is an outlier; other than than, it appears that the total is similar in both cases.
No need to apologize, I'm not the one who has experience here lol.
I guess it is a mix of all those factors.
Regarding the minor factions, they make money only from their mercenary contracts and battles.
In the following table (162T3 hotfix 26/08/2021 column) we can see that the minor factions managed to collect 600K extra gold from warfare.
But I can't really tell if this wealth increase is "healthy"/as intended.
Maybe they are over-draining the wealth from factions that hire them continuously, even when not needed... I don't know...

(EDIT) New table with test results from 160-161-162-162 hotfix
161 & 162 intial161T1162T1162T2162T3 hotfix 26/08/2021
1084​
1089​
1089​
1089​
1089​
Beni Zilal
140000​
18672​
2427​
35985​
9827​
Brotherhood of the Woods
140000​
201639​
36461​
22260​
175766​
Company of the Golden Boar
140000​
382​
10461​
2016​
3565​
Eleftheroi
130000​
477189​
1285038​
1328384​
981583​
Embers of the Flame
130000​
574438​
1033831​
626036​
1085294​
Forest People
140000​
10202​
4535​
2871​
8689​
Ghilman
140000​
23799​
12743​
12362​
9415​
Hidden Hand
130000​
253594​
219756​
570740​
143271​
Jawwal
140000​
19786​
24309​
9082​
3887​
Karakhergit
140000​
4724​
20594​
13593​
7697​
Lake Rats
140000​
3932​
16290​
15377​
26774​
Legion of the Betrayed
140000​
3532​
19635​
4699​
3858​
Skolderbroda
140000​
27710​
10300​
36999​
44723​
Wolfskins
140000​
32582​
3678​
4171​
27906​
Total général
1930000​
1652181​
2700058​
2684575​
2532255​

I need to revert back to 161 to check how much gold minor faction clans are receiving at the start of the game...
(EDIT) Minor factions start with the same gold amount than shown in the table for both 161 & 162.
 
Last edited:

madnessario

Knight
Great results! Yes, this is what I was alluding to. I suppose a test that shows the before-after could show if there is any difference in these numbers from the previous iterations (bug? deliberate change?). That said, the minor factions made 600k in 5 years; something tells me that they are going to continue to amass money upwards because they have fewer (less?) ways to lose money than regular clans.

In that regard, it may be that regular clans losing money is a direct result of warfare and not that taxes themselves are low. (warfare will of course reduce the taxes)

ps: Thank you for the results nonetheless, unfortunately, I do not have the time/capability currently to join you guys in these tests.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
I assume landless minor clans without traditional sources of income are subsidised to keep them in the game.
Yep, minor clans do get a modest subsidy, regardless of whether or not they've been hired. They'll get around 300-500 gold per day for free as seen in the red box below. That'll roughly cover a single parties wages, so it's definitely not something they're going to get rich from. I'm not sure what's causing some mercenary clans to get obscenely wealthy, and I haven't noticed it happening in any of my own tests, so I can only really speculate. I would guess they're either getting a very high mercencary award multiplier (i.e. the amount of gold earned per influence), or they're earning an excessive amount of influence somehow (or both). It's something probably worth looking into though.

fP5d7.png
 
There is not enough snowballing!

Which is a good thing, ofcourse. But I am wondering: Is it also applicable to your own faction?
I've conquered a quarter of the map and have 17 clans under my wing with a total faction strength of 15K. But last night I left my faction as ruler, stepped out and went AFK overnight because I was curious to see how the world would develop. I unfortunately had a notification of something and somewhat that paused the gameplay after about a 1000 days.
When I loaded it up again there hadn't been any major changes to the playing field. Which struck me as odd, but perhaps can be easily explained? Shouldn't a big faction be able to steamroll the others or do the little guys gang up on the big guy? Or did a total fool take over the reigns and wagered war with everyone?

Its an abstract question, I understand, but perhaps someone wondered the same or happens to know why this happens. Thanks!

EDIT: Is it balanced in a way where the player does have all the power? So while the map is alive and vibrant it is also static and stagnated, completely reliant on player input?
 
Last edited:

Nogand

Recruit
There is not enough snowballing!

Which is a good thing, ofcourse. But I am wondering: Is it also applicable to your own faction?
I've conquered a quarter of the map and have 17 clans under my wing with a total faction strength of 15K. But last night I left my faction as ruler, stepped out and went AFK overnight because I was curious to see how the world would develop. I unfortunately had a notification of something and somewhat that paused the gameplay after about a 1000 days.
When I loaded it up again there hadn't been any major changes to the playing field. Which struck me as odd, but perhaps can be easily explained? Shouldn't a big faction be able to steamroll the others or do the little guys gang up on the big guy? Or did a total fool take over the reigns and wagered war with everyone?

Its an abstract question, I understand, but perhaps someone wondered the same or happens to know why this happens. Thanks!

EDIT: Is it balanced in a way where the player does have all the power? So while the map is alive and vibrant it is also static and stagnated, completely reliant on player input?
Seems to be, mainly because autoresolve strongly favours the defender in wars along with the "gang up on the big guy" tendency of the AI. A siege assault alone will usually take a whole day or more, and the attacker will lose 3x as many troops as the defender's garrison. This gives plenty of time for an AI army to form up, and then wait until the attackers have fewer troops than them and destroy the entire offensive push with small casualties.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
There is not enough snowballing!

Which is a good thing, ofcourse. But I am wondering: Is it also applicable to your own faction?
I've conquered a quarter of the map and have 17 clans under my wing with a total faction strength of 15K. But last night I left my faction as ruler, stepped out and went AFK overnight because I was curious to see how the world would develop. I unfortunately had a notification of something and somewhat that paused the gameplay after about a 1000 days.
When I loaded it up again there hadn't been any major changes to the playing field. Which struck me as odd, but perhaps can be easily explained? Shouldn't a big faction be able to steamroll the others or do the little guys gang up on the big guy? Or did a total fool take over the reigns and wagered war with everyone?

Its an abstract question, I understand, but perhaps someone wondered the same or happens to know why this happens. Thanks!

EDIT: Is it balanced in a way where the player does have all the power? So while the map is alive and vibrant it is also static and stagnated, completely reliant on player input?
Right now there is a bug making the AI clans run out of money very quickly. They recruit and dismiss troops constantly, so there is almost no way for them to maintain enough men to successfully siege.
 

Nogand

Recruit
Right now there is a bug making the AI clans run out of money very quickly. They recruit and dismiss troops constantly, so there is almost no way for them to maintain enough men to successfully siege.
I don't know if it's still that bad. Most lords are running around with 100 guys in the party or more in my 1.6.2 playthrough. Vlandia & Battannia have been trading Sargot and a couple castles, & Khuzaits took Amprela.
 
Didn't want to make a thread, this seems like an appropriate thread to ask: Mechanically, how does AI factions recruiting clans work (not mercs, actual clans)? Do they have to pay just as much as the player does? Does their king/leader have to meet them themselves just like the player does? or is it a bit "cheaty" for the AI?

I ask because in my current campaign as ruler of Vlandia, I've noticed that the other factions tend to have noticeably more clans than we do, sometimes 1.5X the number despite being much smaller in terms of strength and fief numbers. We've expanded into a good bit of Sturgia, Battania and Western Empire so our faction is quite large, but or clan numbers hasn't grown as I can't afford to recruit anyone. It's been a state of constant war for what feels like 15 - 20 years (i don't know exactly how long its actually been, but its lasted my MC & now his wife since he died) with literally ZERO peace, we're always at war with at least one faction, normally two or three at once. It's relentless. plus the constant (tedious) rebellions which I try my best to solve by pumping troops & food into the cities, just to see one of the other factions recapture it 2 minutes later... and the cycle repeats.

It's been a stalemate for at least a decade in-game. I can't afford to recruit new clans, the constant war, trying to keep rebellious cities under control and paying for caravans that get captured 5 minutes later even with the better troops has completely depleted my Calradian Bank Account. This got me thinking, how are the AI controlled factions managing to recruit all these other clans? They have fewer fiefs, much lower strength, yet they have a literal constant stream of armies coming at us from all directions to the point were lt's near impossible to expand now.

So to my original question:- Mechanically, how does AI factions recruiting clans work? Do they have to pay just as much as the player does? Does their king/leader have to meet them themselves just like the player does? or is it a bit "cheaty" for the AI?
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
@Spinozart1 I ran three tests to see if AI death in autocalc affected anything negatively (overall, it didn't) but I'm not sure how to post outputs from your BLcheck mod. Did you have a spreadsheet or anything?
 

Spinozart1

Squire
@Spinozart1 I ran three tests to see if AI death in autocalc affected anything negatively (overall, it didn't) but I'm not sure how to post outputs from your BLcheck mod. Did you have a spreadsheet or anything?
No I'm using an excel file with a pivot table to resume the data.
You can send me the results and will resume it the same way I did last time.
 

SaltyNacho

Recruit
So to my original question:- Mechanically, how does AI factions recruiting clans work? Do they have to pay just as much as the player does? Does their king/leader have to meet them themselves just like the player does? or is it a bit "cheaty" for the AI?

From my limited understanding the AI uses a lot of cheats. Just from reading around on the forums I see stories of AI lords being released from captivity, walking into the nearest village and recruiting 80+ troops. Just yesterday I watched a guy on Twitch besiege a Town and an enemy lord had just got there before he did. The AI lord recruited over 40 troops while the siege camp was being constructed. So "a bit cheaty" might be an understatement lol
 
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