Information about developments at snowballing problem

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Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
On a personal note, I want the world to be a little static while the player isn't involved. This could be just me but when i start to get involved in wars and choose a side, we win. It being more challenging to defeat a kingdom is a welcome change. The game for so long has had huge armies of recruits and I have wanted more challenging battles in the late game. The recent changes that have increased the tiers of troops and other economics factors in the 1.6.1 had the negative effect of making parties so small which isn't exactly what I think people wanted. We want big battles of high tier troops so it feels rewarding to win and not just another recruit slaughter. This is seemingly tied to their wealth.

I understand that we keep seeing new players be confused why, right when they hit clan tier 4 and create a kingdom with no money and a few castles, they cant recruit clans who they have a high relationship with. These players need to be better informed about the mechanics of recruiting clans, like how the amount of fiefs they have play a bigger part than relationship and how being at war also makes a major difference. I don't think the solution is to make the game so they don't have an issue recruiting clans without understanding the mechanics. One of the biggest issues in Bannerlord is the lack of transparency about features, but I understand this will eventually be resolved. Also maybe another solution for this is to have lords come to the player to be recruited like in warband and VC.

I've been holding off on a longer playthrough until Ai vs Ai simulated death (1.6.3 pleeeeaassseeee), but I'll try to get a longer player playthrough this patch to let you know if I think its too tough to create a kingdom and recruit clans.
 
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mexxico

Sergeant Knight
On a personal note, I want the world to be a little static while the player isn't involved. This could be just me but when i start to get involved in wars and choose a side, we win. It being more challenging to defeat a kingdom is a welcome change. The game for so long has had huge armies of recruits and I have wanted more challenging battles in the late game. The recent changes that have increased the tiers of troops and other economics factors in the 1.6.1 had the negative effect of making parties so small which isn't exactly what I think people wanted. We want big battles of high tier troops so it feels rewarding to win and not just another recruit slaughter.

I understand that we keep seeing new players be confused why, right when they hit clan tier 4 and create a kingdom with no money and a few castles, they cant recruit clans who they have a high relationship with. These players need to be better informed about the mechanics of recruiting clans, like how the amount of fiefs they have play a bigger part than relationship and how being at war also makes a major difference. I don't think the solution is to make the game so they don't have an issue recruiting clans without understanding the mechanics. One of the biggest issues in Bannerlord is the lack of transparency about features, but I understand this will eventually be resolved. Also maybe another solution for this is to have lords come to the player to be recruited like in warband and VC.

I've been holding off on a longer playthrough until Ai vs Ai simulated death (1.6.3 pleeeeaassseeee), but I'll try to get a longer player playthrough this patch to let you know if I think its too tough to create a kingdom and recruit clans.

I understand these concerns and I also think same as you. For example kings or high tier clan leaders should use their party sizes as much as possible when player see a king or high tier clan leader party on map player should see big troop numbers and should fear and all lord parties should travel at map mostly close to their limits game should be challenging lords should not consist of mostly recruits. We worked for that in past for lots of time you know, we have same target for game.

However what I try to say is latest povetry problem was not related to all lords it was related to povetry of some specific clans especially kings of some kingdoms imo. Reason behind this need to be found instead of giving every one in Calradia more money. Otherwise you cannot find very poor clans in game and player cannot use some features (for example player should be able to recruit very poor clans even he has low positive relation with them and even he created his kingdom new, this is a variety of game) of game and clans do not differentiate by time.

Anyway latest changes (tax and loot gains were reduced a bit) at 1.6.1 were already small, x0.36 or x0.3, these are not so different numbers. I am only trying to show correct path. Changes at 1.6.1 were small and they are reverted at 1.6.2. There will not be big difference at game still I think 1.6.2 will have small money inflation and I think it is a problem. By time with new additions this inflation can grow and can be more visible and bigger problem. Just shared my thoughts.
 
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Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
I understand these concerns and I also think same as you. For example kings or high tier clan leaders should use their party sizes as much as possible when player see a king or high tier clan leader party on map player should see big troop numbers and should fear and all lord parties should travel at map mostly close to their limits game should be challenging lords should not consist of mostly recruits. We worked for that in past for lots of time you know, we have same target for game.

However what I try to say is latest povetry problem was not related to all lords it was related to povetry of some specific clans especially kings of some kingdoms imo. Reason behind this need to be found instead of giving every one in Calradia more money. Otherwise you cannot find very poor clans in game and player cannot use some features of game and clans do not differentiate by time.

Anyway latest changes (tax and loot gains were reduced a bit) at 1.6.1 were already small, x0.36 or x0.3, these are not so different numbers. I am only trying to show correct path. Changes at 1.6.1 were small and they are reverted at 1.6.2. There will not be big difference at game still I think 1.6.2 will have small money inflation and I think it is a problem by time this inflation can grow if similar additions done. Just shared my thoughts.
I understand, the reverts were but a bandaid to the problem which is likely sitting in initial prosperity of certain clans fiefs. The initial changes were good long term and probably should be kept but with more targeted fixes to address the clans pushed across the edge of poverty. That makes sense and I'm definitely not trying to say your suggestions are incorrect.

Btw can you explain the negative impact of money inflation? I think you've kept us from seeing the problems it creates (good thing btw) so I don't quite understand what the problem is with it, with the exception that it would be more difficult to recruit a lord who isn't poor. Is that the only issue? If everyone is at average wealth and havent lost any territory is that a problem? If it is then maybe we need to refine the definitions of poor and average wealth.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
I understand, the reverts were but a bandaid to the problem which is likely sitting in initial prosperity of certain clans fiefs. The initial changes were good long term and probably should be kept but with more targeted fixes to address the clans pushed across the edge of poverty. That makes sense and I'm definitely not trying to say your suggestions are incorrect.

Btw can you explain the negative impact of money inflation? I think you've kept us from seeing the problems it creates (good thing btw) so I don't quite understand what the problem is with it, with the exception that it would be more difficult to recruit a lord who isn't poor. Is that the only issue? If everyone is at average wealth and havent lost any territory is that a problem? If it is then maybe we need to refine the definitions of poor and average wealth.
If there is a money inflation player’s or other lords succesfull hostile actions will not effect owner of these settlements much so they can still continue wandering with huge parties also as you said there will not be very poor clans around so recruiting will be harder.

If player is weak aganist it’s enemies currently he can still harm them by several hit and run actions like raiding or destroying villagers caravans etc. This creates financial problems at owners of these settlements and they lose their troops without a field battle because they cannot support feed pay them. If there is a money inflation player will need to capture nearly all settlements to harm his enemies otherwise they will not have any economical problems. Even a clan lose all settlements they can continue forming huge parties if they still have 100Ks of money so player thinks his successful actions have no impact on game and players start to think AI is cheating. If game do not give enough reactions to player’s successful actions player will be upset and only way to success become always capturing settlements.

I see you say game is not challenging but to make game challenging settlements should be harder to capture firstly, 100 defenders should kill 300-400 attackers in missions (realistic difficulty) this will make game more realistic and challenging and fun to play even player’s need to recruits will be higher. This can seem a boring loop to collect new recruits all time and losing them or upgraded ones at sieges this should be main game loop. We should not create money inflation to make game more challenging we should make settlements to be harder to capture. When you join a kingdom thats why your kingdom easily dominates map because it’s sieges become mostly mission not simulation where attackers lose 3 man to kill 1 man.
 
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I understand these concerns and I also think same as you. For example kings or high tier clan leaders should use their party sizes as much as possible when player see a king or high tier clan leader party on map player should see big troop numbers and should fear and all lord parties should travel at map mostly close to their limits game should be challenging lords should not consist of mostly recruits. We worked for that in past for lots of time you know, we have same target for game.
Do kingdoms still gather massive armies in peace time? Then a good money saver would be to have them drop a % (say 50%)of their troops in garrisons and only go to full strength when at war.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
If there is a money inflation player’s or other lords succesfull hostile actions will not effect owner of these settlements much so they can still continue wandering with huge parties also as you said there will not be very poor clans around so recruiting will be harder.

If player is weak aganist it’s enemies currently he can still harm them by several hit and run actions like raiding or destroying villagers caravans etc. If there is a money inflation player will need to capture nearly all settlements to harm his enemies otherwise they will not have any economical problems. Even a clan lose all settlements they can continue forming huge parties if they still have 100Ks of money so player thinks his successful actions have no impact on game and players start to think AI is cheating. If game do not give enough reactions to player’s successful actions player will be upset and only way to success become always capturing settlements.
Ok so basically by 30-40 years in if everyone is rich then actions start to become unimpactful and we will see never ending armies of high tier troops regardless of the damage we create on a kingdom. That would definitely not be good. Thanks for the explanation!
I see you say game is not challenging but to make game challenging settlements should be harder to capture firstly, 100 defenders should kill 400-500 attackers in missions this will make game more realistic and challenging and fun to play even player’s need to receuits will be higher. This can seem a boring loop to collect new recruits all time and losing them at sieges this should be main game loop. We should not create money inflation to make game more challenging.
giphy.gif


Just set my test 1 to go to year 30 and ill take it out to year 40 to check wealth.
 
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Thrangor88

Recruit
Do kingdoms still gather massive armies in peace time? Then a good money saver would be to have them drop a % (say 50%)of their troops in garrisons and only go to full strength when at war.
+1. I think the lords still pay their garrison, so the lords would have to reduce their army by 50% in peacetime or the clan lords would stay in their homes without an army and the other nobles would hunt bandits.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Im sad, game crashed my computer when i tried to start the simulation to 40 years (my fault I forgot to take settings off 165 fps). I hadnt saved all the data I recorded or the game at 30 years so i cant show you guys what happened. I only have this screen shot of the world map, you'll have to trust me off what I remember.

k_sKc.jpg

@mexxico we went from 1 very poor clan in year 20 to 14 very poor clans in year 30 (majority fiefless, although some had a single castle), went from 14 rich down to 8. So it looked like once some conquering actually started to happen the wealth followed accordingly.
 

mexxico

Sergeant Knight
Im sad, game crashed my computer when i tried to start the simulation to 40 years (my fault I forgot to take settings off 165 fps). I hadnt saved all the data I recorded or the game at 30 years so i cant show you guys what happened. I only have this screen shot of the world map, you'll have to trust me off what I remember.

k_sKc.jpg

@mexxico we went from 1 very poor clan in year 20 to 14 very poor clans in year 30 (majority fiefless, although some had a single castle), went from 14 rich down to 8. So it looked like once some conquering actually started to happen the wealth followed accordingly.
Ok then. After more samples we can say if final version has money inflation or not but if you say clans marked as “very poor” increased to 14 from 1 at year 30 then things can be good at 1.6.2, but still you need to examine more 30-40 year samples to talk with confidence.
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Hey @mexxico, nice to see you still around and thanks for providing information about this

On the topic:


** AI clans poverty issue:

* Reasons:

- There is a simple reason for clans going to bankrupt really fast. After making some tests using cheats for taking ownership of some clans’ fiefs, I could see that these fiefs barely provide money for paying garrison wages. In some case these fiefs do not even provide enough money for paying garrison wages, which puts AI clans in a huge negative income balance since the beginning.
- There are some ways of reducing wages and increasing fiefs’ income, but these things are hard to use for the AI. In Warband garrison units automatically get reduced their wages -50%, and it is pretty easy for the AI to take advantage of it. In Bannerlord the AI needs to assign a governor with the right perks, and get some specific buildings in order to reduce wages and boost income, which puts the AI in a disadvantage if it does not know how to do it properly.
- Loot is simply too unpredictable to be considered as a reliable income source for the AI. Loot is too good for the player, but AI is not even close to win as much as battles as the player.


** Money inflation issue:

- Why some clans having 150-280K is a problem in late game? I mean, it is actually not that much. Maybe I am wrong on this and it is actually a bad thing, and if it is the case and most of clans should only have about 50-80K, then something should be changed related to AI recruiting just 50% or party capacity or so when having this amount of money.
- The player having millions while the AI having 50-80K gold average feels bad IMO.
- Money is pretty relevant when electing a new king, so now the player is 100% of the times elected as king due to this. Even at clan tier 4 without any fiefs, and having a much weaker clan strength.

** Some other thoughts:

- AI lords and especially kings having half filled parties is one of the worst things for gameplay in my opinion. While it somehow helps with snowballing, it just makes the game feel like 200% easier because the player is able to have the strongest party in the world really really fast. This makes the game feels like playing in ultra-easy.
- Keeping the game challenging is pretty relevant in terms of improving the replayability of the game, and for keeping the player base active. I am still playing Bannerlord because I know how to modify some game’s aspects in order to make it more challenging (After tons of hours playing, I find the vanilla game lacking difficulty). Otherwise, I would probably stopped playing the game some time ago because lacking challenging.
- While a lot of players complain about some “hard” things like recruiting clans, keep in mind that these players will eventually learn how to play the game better, and the same players who are currently complaining because the game is “hard”, in some time will be complaining because the game is too easy. For this reason we need some extra difficulty settings.
 
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svelok

Sergeant
If the systems are so complex that it's difficult for even the developers to fine-tune them, that says something worrying about the player's ability to make meaningful decisions with regard to them.

It might be better to have a layer of abstraction and/or self-limiting mechanics attached to values the AI can (theoretically) raise indefinitely.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
I think the system is not too complex, and this issue is not that hard to fix. Let’s see, if a clan starts with 2 towns and one castle, and these 3 fiefs only can pay garrison wages as much, this clan still has to pay 3 parties’ wages, recruiting money, upgrading troops money, food, etc. So it is pretty clear why this clan is going to bankrupt in 100 days as much.

The main source income for AI is fiefs’ taxes, but it is tied to prosperity which is pretty low at the beginning for some settlements. If the money expenses are much higher than money income, the way to fix the clans poverty issue is as simple as increasing income, or decreasing expenses (or both at the same time). For example:

- Increase fiefs starting prosperity: this would provide more money for clans since the first day. It looks like a safe change but I have the feeling that this could also increase the money inflation chance for some clans.
- Increase fiefs’ income (currently 35% of fief prosperity): the problem with this is the money inflation once towns start getting pretty high prosperity values. I have mentioned a way to avoid this though (making prosperity progressively less impactful as it is increased).
- Allow the AI to buy caravans and workshops: Mexxico mentioned some time ago that this idea was rejected.
- Money cheat for AI in compensation for workshops and caravans: I would consider this cheat fair and I would not oppose to it, but some people could complain about that.
- Decrease garrison number/quality for AI settlements: while it would help, there is a risk of increasing snowballing because settlements would be easier to conquer. This is not a good idea.
- Reduce X% garrison wages cheat for the AI, in compensation for lacking ability of choosing a good governor: governors can reduce -35% garrison wages in castles and -15% garrison wages in towns. Plus +10% taxes. Adding a small cheat for automatically reducing -X% garrison wages for the AI would be ok in my opinion, but maybe some people complain about that.
- Make the AI less likely to upgrade units if in critical financial situation: there is a small risk of harming too much the AI lords parties quality, but keeping in mind the notables changes where is now possible to directly recruit elite units, I think this change could help a lot. Plus think that part of these upgraded troops are likely to be disbanded if the clan is in a critical financial situation, so it is a better idea to avoid upgrading units rather than paying for upgrades, and then disbanding units.

As a side note, does someone knows if the AI cheat for avoiding paying garrison wages when in critical financial situation has been removed?
 
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Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Adding more information about this topic, after several tests, financial issues are still present in 1.6.2, and lords are building small parties. I have made two small videos where I got Derthert's and Ravangad's fiefs at day 10, to check why they are going to bankrupt so fast.

* Derthert:


* Ravangad:


Now think that these clans aside from having to pay settlements' garrison, also have to pay 3 big parties' wages, food, upgrades, etc. There is clearly something wrong since the beginning, and some clans need more money.
 

Spinozart1

Squire
Okay finally here are my test results over 5-10-15-20-30-40 years.
Snowballing score seems ok.

The finance remains obscur for me.
For example:
  • On year 5 we can see that Sturgian faction is almost broken (but managed to come back).
  • On year 40, Clan leader of Southern Empire is Hongeros and is completely broken and has no fiefs.

I'm not sure if it is the inflation @mexxico was speaking about but total clan gold of whole Calradia is 3,7M on year 5 and become 6,2M on year 40. I'm lacking of reference so I'm not sure if it is a normal trend or a real inflation.
(EDIT)
As suggested by @Dabos37 , I have added the intial gold status... And we can see that the finance on year 0 is at the same level than on year 40...
I did a second short test of 5 years and the huge drop happens the exact same way after 5 years...
This global bankrupt is abnormal and I assume that it is influencing the results we have with snowballing as well...

Funny thing, on year 40 the very rich clans shown in encyclopedia are:
Eleftheroi (!)
Embers of the Flame (!)
2 rebel clans (!)
1 Aserai clan (as usual)

(EDIT : addition of year 1084 for both tables)

1084​
1089​
1094​
1099​
1104​
1114​
1124​
factionStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
6186​
837.826​
25​
5715​
381.856​
22​
7827​
624.204​
25​
9705​
1.514.695​
30​
10675​
1.598.168​
31​
14958​
853.683​
31​
12052​
2.205.766​
31​
battania
4475​
823.511​
18​
5678​
616.771​
22​
5383​
365.158​
23​
6179​
293.784​
20​
3536​
154.478​
13​
3584​
38.672​
10​
2166​
35.949​
5​
empire
4614​
884.931​
21​
5507​
476.512​
19​
6936​
541.728​
17​
5233​
194.343​
11​
3532​
244.137​
11​
3209​
139.776​
6​
2247​
8.216​
3​
empire_s
4928​
815.441​
22​
4720​
737.192​
23​
4319​
385.531​
18​
5528​
298.784​
13​
5744​
335.833​
14​
6848​
373.259​
20​
2436​
131.338​
14​
empire_w
5121​
735.230​
20​
6043​
586.588​
23​
6734​
758.584​
23​
8162​
874.823​
26​
9486​
957.499​
26​
12866​
1.158.321​
28​
13112​
1.333.389​
36​
khuzait
4916​
814.911​
21​
5748​
354.252​
22​
4909​
567.907​
22​
7406​
499.755​
26​
6995​
503.088​
24​
7379​
652.748​
23​
8574​
712.452​
26​
sturgia
5630​
806.105​
22​
5031​
99.746​
15​
6054​
238.163​
18​
6471​
276.036​
19​
5857​
436.796​
23​
8721​
349.394​
24​
10126​
687.731​
21​
vlandia
5697​
705.892​
24​
6893​
481.149​
25​
9640​
700.562​
27​
8010​
845.709​
28​
10658​
1.146.455​
31​
11290​
1.266.393​
31​
12878​
1.157.085​
37​
Total général
4475​
6.423.847​
173​
4720​
3.734.066​
171​
4319​
4.181.837​
173​
5233​
4.797.929​
173​
3532​
5.376.454​
173​
3209​
4.832.246​
173​
2166​
6.271.926​
173​
26717222441

Total goldyear
factionclan
1084​
1089​
1094​
1099​
1104​
1114​
1124​
aseraiAvlonos
388​
470​
Banu Arbas
503​
693​
710​
900​
455​
1.298​
964​
Banu Atij
551​
452​
442​
651​
791​
942​
730​
Banu Habbab
60.000​
295​
30.436​
30.293​
Banu Hulyan (Start & End Leader)
162.864​
57.319​
99.266​
251.601​
2.768​
4.088​
3.372​
Banu Qaraz
90.677​
35.812​
35.026​
66.365​
149.649​
81.623​
137.699​
Banu Qild
200.931​
144.139​
260.017​
865.599​
895.445​
426.405​
1.436.469​
Banu Ruwaid
70.000​
30.710​
30.591​
76.512​
106.892​
38.374​
114.852​
Banu Sarmal
160.000​
63.636​
58.470​
115.072​
199.394​
114.244​
240.218​
Banu Sarran
92.300​
49.095​
139.387​
107.559​
181.806​
108.066​
196.648​
fen Morcar
30.305​
58.148​
54.682​
Phalentes
470​
825​
Vatatzes
370​
19.637​
18.837​
Total aserai
837.826​
381.856​
624.204​
1.514.695​
1.598.168​
853.683​
2.205.766​
battaniaAeric's Clan
468​
481​
fen Caernacht
60.000​
30.735​
25.544​
fen Derngil
100.748​
43.467​
26.619​
34.438​
28.786​
751​
fen Eingal
80.000​
28.073​
89.499​
44.500​
4.002​
206​
fen Giall
406​
277​
573​
518​
447​
6.231​
fen Gruffendoc (Start & End Leader)
321.182​
215.382​
57.289​
65.625​
69.665​
30.273​
35.239​
fen Morcar
90.000​
89.710​
23.460​
19.219​
fen Penraic
80.570​
166.707​
141.447​
112.568​
51.578​
1.211​
710​
fen Uvain
90.605​
42.420​
259​
16.435​
Total battania
823.511​
616.771​
365.158
293.784​
154.478​
38.672​
35.949
empire_nAphanys's Clan
6.169​
Argoros
100.780​
32.188​
29.183​
367​
Chonis
70.000​
49.968​
40.312​
29.008​
62.428​
Dolentos
509​
515​
647​
302​
Impestores
372​
400​
584​
Neretzes
180.742​
109.006​
123.669​
19.158​
26.702​
Osticos (Start & End Leader)
322.528​
184.366​
207.134​
97.070​
116.875​
120.530​
8.216​
Phalentes
60.000​
28.162​
37.763​
24.944​
Serapides
70.000​
42.055​
69.517​
23.796​
31.661​
19.246​
Vatatzes
80.000​
29.852​
32.919​
Total empire_n
884.931​
476.512​
541.728​
194.343​
244.137​
139.776​
8.216
empire_sArgoros
391​
178​
Avlonos
80.000​
30.383​
Dolentos
29.851​
638​
Hongeros (End Leader)
596​
412​
632​
907​
1.028​
1.694​
Julios
80.576​
157.903​
133.775​
181.780​
239.146​
113.302​
36.799​
Leonipardes
487​
320​
208​
302​
436​
581​
Mestricaros
200.806​
250.005​
149.654​
21.323​
505​
Pethros (Start Leader)
322.584​
235.502​
40.306​
43.050​
41.787​
119.375​
32.790​
Prienicos
60.000​
30.034​
28.968​
22.268​
24.511​
37.974​
16.615​
Vetranis
70.000​
32.406​
31.529​
29.154​
28.534​
29.737​
14.388​
Vizartos
392​
227​
459​
40.240​
29.930​
Total empire_s
815.441​
737.192​
385.531​
298.784​
335.833​
373.259​
131.338
empire_wComnos (Start & End Leader)
162.346​
146.538​
216.169​
194.898​
215.996​
227.286​
339.003​
Corenios
80.000​
66.294​
82.160​
65.102​
194.180​
28.176​
109.867​
Denos's Clan
73.468​
Dionicos
90.782​
623​
656​
754​
96.558​
101.584​
756​
Elaches
90.673​
131.448​
137.581​
172.995​
151.254​
195.395​
246.112​
Lonalion
561​
542​
455​
578​
983​
1.136​
1.028​
Maneolis
60.000​
32.045​
39.489​
44.417​
27.265​
120.098​
133.569​
Palladios
70.000​
31.561​
36.714​
52.826​
25.519​
41.261​
28.097​
Sorados
80.000​
86.458​
58.990​
205.593​
218.009​
365.929​
171.599​
Sovos's Clan
50.943​
144.190​
Thais's Clan
330​
136.782​
26.982​
25.359​
84.702​
Varros
100.868​
90.749​
186.370​
878​
753​
1.154​
998​
Total empire_w
735.230​
586.588​
758.584​
874.823​
957.499​
1.158.321​
1.333.389
khuzaitArkit
100.847​
33.062​
76.404​
46.232​
72.356​
130.868​
72.186​
Baltait
180.000​
95.319​
147.714​
138.392​
144.228​
109.848​
97.512​
fen Giall
471​
fen Uvain
270​
20.081​
Harfit
388​
503​
361​
734​
18.374​
35.070​
51.340​
Khergit
480​
657​
478​
656​
727​
980​
20.359​
Koltit
160.000​
56.680​
50.260​
49.314​
64.714​
46.654​
Oburit
70.000​
27.421​
35.358​
34.028​
21.598​
10.450​
26.760​
Tigrit
80.432​
37.329​
100.223​
99.247​
33.850​
77.007​
69.437​
Urkhunait (Start & End Leader)
162.764​
73.025​
128.437​
68.836​
118.423​
219.423​
331.379​
Yanserit
60.000​
30.256​
28.672​
62.316​
28.548​
22.448​
22.927​
Total khuzait
814.911​
354.252​
567.907​
499.755​
503.088​
652.748​
712.452
sturgiaGundaroving (Start Leader)
322.812​
766​
591​
973​
564​
726​
1.226​
Isyaroving
421​
663​
795​
717​
604​
877​
815​
Kostoroving
70.000​
59.280​
19.732​
23.075​
19.952​
20.342​
Kras's Clan
20.182​
263​
26.855​
33.764​
100.291​
Kuloving
731​
689​
630​
869​
602​
688​
1.089​
Kulyat's Clan
6.762​
297​
19.866​
22.856​
Ormidoving
90.798​
554​
531​
611​
519​
742​
850​
Pol's Clan
410​
Togaroving (End Leader)
80.666​
34.360​
93.633​
175.889​
270.759​
87.841​
262.958​
Ubroving
60.000​
35.815​
28.814​
47.957​
29.077​
33.418​
29.108​
Vagiroving
90.677​
634​
621​
726​
654​
49.386​
47.564​
Vezhoving
90.000​
26.265​
33.086​
21.537​
83.790​
101.724​
200.632​
Total sturgia
806.105​
99.746​
238.163​
276.036​
436.796​
349.394​
687.731
vlandiadey Arromanc
613​
669​
858​
478​
1.058​
1.163​
1.212​
dey Cortain
661​
554​
867​
382​
971​
988​
707​
dey Folcun
60.000​
69.002​
88.563​
62.046​
274.852​
dey Fortes
80.747​
62.350​
143.517​
176.034​
250.921​
226.843​
146.116​
dey Gunric
70.000​
27.153​
28.477​
26.521​
63.202​
429.072​
304.306​
dey Jelind
70.000​
26.145​
30.829​
54.854​
29.096​
28.872​
54.548​
dey Meroc (Start Leader)
162.022​
88.502​
159.167​
127.171​
137.062​
101.564​
173.984​
dey Molarn
538​
660​
608​
413​
619​
644​
948​
dey Rothad
90.000​
29.561​
56.150​
79.212​
88.386​
119.348​
121.032​
dey Tihr (End Leader)
90.687​
140.145​
131.778​
192.125​
210.795​
257.138​
297.260​
dey Valant
80.624​
36.408​
59.748​
126.473​
89.493​
100.761​
55.524​
fen Eingal
1.448​
Total vlandia
705.892​
481.149​
700.562​
845.709​
1.146.455​
1.266.393​
1.157.085
Total général
6.423.847​
3.734.066​
4.181.837​
4.797.929​
5.376.454​
4.832.246​
6.271.926

 
Last edited:

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Okay finally here are my test results over 5-10-15-20-30-40 years.
Snowballing score seems ok.

The finance remains obscur for me.
For example:
  • On year 5 we can see that Sturgian faction is almost broken (but managed to come back).
  • On year 40, Clan leader of Southern Empire is Hongeros and is completely broken and has no fiefs.

I'm not sure if it is the inflation @mexxico was speaking about but total clan gold of whole Calradia is 3,7M on year 5 and become 6,2M on year 40. I'm lacking of reference so I'm not sure if it is a normal trend or a real inflation.

Funny thing, on year 40 the very rich clans shown in encyclopedia are:
Eleftheroi (!)
Embers of the Flame (!)
2 rebel clans (!)
1 Aserai clan (as usual)
(little edit)

1089​
1094​
1099​
1104​
1114​
1124​
FactionStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScoreStrengthTotal goldScore
aserai
5715​
381.856​
22​
7827​
624.204​
25​
9705​
1.514.695​
30​
10675​
1.598.168​
31​
14958​
853.683​
31​
12052​
2.205.766​
31​
battania
5678​
616.771​
22​
5383​
365.158​
23​
6179​
293.784​
20​
3536​
154.478​
13​
3584​
38.672​
10​
2166​
35.949​
5​
empire_n
5507​
476.512​
19​
6936​
541.728​
17​
5233​
194.343​
11​
3532​
244.137​
11​
3209​
139.776​
6​
2247​
8.216​
3​
empire_s
4720​
737.192​
23​
4319​
385.531​
18​
5528​
298.784​
13​
5744​
335.833​
14​
6848​
373.259​
20​
2436​
131.338​
14​
empire_w
6043​
586.588​
23​
6734​
758.584​
23​
8162​
874.823​
26​
9486​
957.499​
26​
12866​
1.158.321​
28​
13112​
1.333.389​
36​
khuzait
5748​
354.252​
22​
4909​
567.907​
22​
7406​
499.755​
26​
6995​
503.088​
24​
7379​
652.748​
23​
8574​
712.452​
26​
sturgia
5031​
99.746​
15​
6054​
238.163​
18​
6471​
276.036​
19​
5857​
436.796​
23​
8721​
349.394​
24​
10126​
687.731​
21​
vlandia
6893​
481.149​
25​
9640​
700.562​
27​
8010​
845.709​
28​
10658​
1.146.455​
31​
11290​
1.266.393​
31​
12878​
1.157.085​
37​
Total
3.734.066​
171​
4.181.837​
173​
4.797.929​
173​
5.376.454​
173​
4.832.246​
173​
6.271.926​
173​
6​
7​
17​
22​
24​
41​

FactionClan
(Year) 1089​
1094​
1099​
1104​
1114​
1124​
aseraiAvlonos
388​
470​
Banu Arbas
693​
710​
900​
455​
1.298​
964​
Banu Atij
452​
442​
651​
791​
942​
730​
Banu Habbab
295​
30.436​
30.293​
Banu Hulyan (Start & End Leader)
57.319​
99.266​
251.601​
2.768​
4.088​
3.372​
Banu Qaraz
35.812​
35.026​
66.365​
149.649​
81.623​
137.699​
Banu Qild
144.139​
260.017​
865.599​
895.445​
426.405​
1.436.469​
Banu Ruwaid
30.710​
30.591​
76.512​
106.892​
38.374​
114.852​
Banu Sarmal
63.636​
58.470​
115.072​
199.394​
114.244​
240.218​
Banu Sarran
49.095​
139.387​
107.559​
181.806​
108.066​
196.648​
fen Morcar
30.305​
58.148​
54.682​
Phalentes
470​
825​
Vatatzes
370​
19.637​
18.837​
Total aserai
381.856​
624.204​
1.514.695​
1.598.168​
853.683​
2.205.766​
battaniaAeric's Clan
468​
481​
fen Caernacht
30.735​
25.544​
fen Derngil
43.467​
26.619​
34.438​
28.786​
751​
fen Eingal
28.073​
89.499​
44.500​
4.002​
206​
fen Giall
277​
573​
518​
447​
6.231​
fen Gruffendoc (Start & End Leader)
215.382​
57.289​
65.625​
69.665​
30.273​
35.239​
fen Morcar
89.710​
23.460​
19.219​
fen Penraic
166.707​
141.447​
112.568​
51.578​
1.211​
710​
fen Uvain
42.420​
259​
16.435​
Total battania
616.771​
365.158​
293.784​
154.478​
38.672​
35.949​
empire_nAphanys's Clan
6.169​
Argoros
32.188​
29.183​
367​
Chonis
49.968​
40.312​
29.008​
62.428​
Dolentos
515​
647​
302​
Impestores
400​
584​
Neretzes
109.006​
123.669​
19.158​
26.702​
Osticos (Start & End Leader)
184.366​
207.134​
97.070​
116.875​
120.530​
8.216​
Phalentes
28.162​
37.763​
24.944​
Serapides
42.055​
69.517​
23.796​
31.661​
19.246​
Vatatzes
29.852​
32.919​
Total empire
476.512​
541.728​
194.343​
244.137​
139.776​
8.216​
empire_sArgoros
391​
178​
Avlonos
30.383​
Dolentos
29.851​
638​
Hongeros (End Leader)
412​
632​
907​
1.028​
1.694​
Julios
157.903​
133.775​
181.780​
239.146​
113.302​
36.799​
Leonipardes
320​
208​
302​
436​
581​
Mestricaros
250.005​
149.654​
21.323​
505​
Pethros (Start Leader)
235.502​
40.306​
43.050​
41.787​
119.375​
32.790​
Prienicos
30.034​
28.968​
22.268​
24.511​
37.974​
16.615​
Vetranis
32.406​
31.529​
29.154​
28.534​
29.737​
14.388​
Vizartos
227​
459​
40.240​
29.930​
Total empire_s
737.192​
385.531​
298.784​
335.833​
373.259​
131.338​
empire_wComnos (Start & End Leader)
146.538​
216.169​
194.898​
215.996​
227.286​
339.003​
Corenios
66.294​
82.160​
65.102​
194.180​
28.176​
109.867​
Denos's Clan
73.468​
Dionicos
623​
656​
754​
96.558​
101.584​
756​
Elaches
131.448​
137.581​
172.995​
151.254​
195.395​
246.112​
Lonalion
542​
455​
578​
983​
1.136​
1.028​
Maneolis
32.045​
39.489​
44.417​
27.265​
120.098​
133.569​
Palladios
31.561​
36.714​
52.826​
25.519​
41.261​
28.097​
Sorados
86.458​
58.990​
205.593​
218.009​
365.929​
171.599​
Sovos's Clan
50.943​
144.190​
Thais's Clan
330​
136.782​
26.982​
25.359​
84.702​
Varros
90.749​
186.370​
878​
753​
1.154​
998​
Total empire_w
586.588​
758.584​
874.823​
957.499​
1.158.321​
1.333.389​
khuzaitArkit
33.062​
76.404​
46.232​
72.356​
130.868​
72.186​
Baltait
95.319​
147.714​
138.392​
144.228​
109.848​
97.512​
fen Giall
471​
fen Uvain
270​
20.081​
Harfit
503​
361​
734​
18.374​
35.070​
51.340​
Khergit
657​
478​
656​
727​
980​
20.359​
Koltit
56.680​
50.260​
49.314​
64.714​
46.654​
Oburit
27.421​
35.358​
34.028​
21.598​
10.450​
26.760​
Tigrit
37.329​
100.223​
99.247​
33.850​
77.007​
69.437​
Urkhunait (Start & End Leader)
73.025​
128.437​
68.836​
118.423​
219.423​
331.379​
Yanserit
30.256​
28.672​
62.316​
28.548​
22.448​
22.927​
Total khuzait
354.252​
567.907​
499.755​
503.088​
652.748​
712.452​
sturgiaGundaroving (Start Leader)
766​
591​
973​
564​
726​
1.226​
Isyaroving
663​
795​
717​
604​
877​
815​
Kostoroving
59.280​
19.732​
23.075​
19.952​
20.342​
Kras's Clan
20.182​
263​
26.855​
33.764​
100.291​
Kuloving
689​
630​
869​
602​
688​
1.089​
Kulyat's Clan
6.762​
297​
19.866​
22.856​
Ormidoving
554​
531​
611​
519​
742​
850​
Pol's Clan
410​
Togaroving (End Leader)
34.360​
93.633​
175.889​
270.759​
87.841​
262.958​
Ubroving
35.815​
28.814​
47.957​
29.077​
33.418​
29.108​
Vagiroving
634​
621​
726​
654​
49.386​
47.564​
Vezhoving
26.265​
33.086​
21.537​
83.790​
101.724​
200.632​
Total sturgia
99.746​
238.163​
276.036​
436.796​
349.394​
687.731​
vlandiadey Arromanc
669​
858​
478​
1.058​
1.163​
1.212​
dey Cortain
554​
867​
382​
971​
988​
707​
dey Folcun
69.002​
88.563​
62.046​
274.852​
dey Fortes
62.350​
143.517​
176.034​
250.921​
226.843​
146.116​
dey Gunric
27.153​
28.477​
26.521​
63.202​
429.072​
304.306​
dey Jelind
26.145​
30.829​
54.854​
29.096​
28.872​
54.548​
dey Meroc (Start Leader)
88.502​
159.167​
127.171​
137.062​
101.564​
173.984​
dey Molarn
660​
608​
413​
619​
644​
948​
dey Rothad
29.561​
56.150​
79.212​
88.386​
119.348​
121.032​
dey Tihr (End Leader)
140.145​
131.778​
192.125​
210.795​
257.138​
297.260​
dey Valant
36.408​
59.748​
126.473​
89.493​
100.761​
55.524​
fen Eingal
1.448​
Total vlandia
481.149​
700.562​
845.709​
1.146.455​
1.266.393​
1.157.085​


Could you please check the total clan gold in calradia the day1? At year 5, a lot of clans go to bankrupt, so I think it is a better idea to compare taking the day1 as reference.

Thanks for this nice info!
 

Ananda_The_Destroyer

Master Knight
I see you say game is not challenging but to make game challenging settlements should be harder to capture firstly, 100 defenders should kill 300-400 attackers in missions (realistic difficulty) this will make game more realistic and challenging and fun to play even player’s need to recruits will be higher.
Yeah for sure, I don't know who's in charge but all ranged units should be on the walls or other place where they can fire on a attackers, at a certain thresh hold of infantry loss at the entrance point(ladder, breach wall, tower) then a large amount should fall back to the ground level and fire on the attackers trickling through the entrances. As it is there's like 1/4of ranged actually able to shoot attackers and the rest often in blobs not doing anything and of course once then enemy is inside they're in a useless position for the most part.
 
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