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Information about developments at snowballing problem

Users who are viewing this thread

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
Actually having influence cost for decline offer is not accepted so this problem partly lost its importance. If influence cost was not removed my solution was to pause game and force pop up to appear (like player clicked) (only if player did not open it for 24 hours). Now this is not needed. If player do not open notification at given time period (24 hours) he will lose opportunity of checking offer.

If player is not king and if he is vassal and he do not open notification pop up we can directly start peace voting when 24 hour time period is past.
Got it. Thanks!

In that case, since the notification is time sensitive, it might be helpful to have an indication of how much time we have remaining to respond to the offer before it expires or voting starts without you. It could be as simple as a tooltip on the notification stating something like "You have 18 hours remaining to respond to this offer," or a visual on the notification itself, such as:

HhWCe.png


8RMlU.png


rMEsp.png

It could also be used for other time sensitive notifications such as settlement voting, etc. @MRay How hard would it be to add something like that?
 

Nodice83

Knight
WBWF&SNWVC
In that case, since the notification is time sensitive, it might be helpful to have an indication of how much time we have remaining to respond to the offer before it expires or voting starts without you. It could be as simple as a tooltip on the notification stating something like "You have 18 hours remaining to respond to this offer," or a visual on the notification itself, such as:

HhWCe.png


8RMlU.png


rMEsp.png
It could also be used for other time sensitive notifications such as settlement voting, etc. @MRay How hard would it be to add something like that?
Simple & amazing! QoL improvement IMHO. Great stuff @Bannerman Man
 

MRay

Developer
I like the idea of showing how much time is left for a circle notification. I'll bring it up internally!
 

sniparsexe

Knight at Arms
I like the idea of showing how much time is left for a circle notification. I'll bring it up internally!
I'm not sure which one you proposed / will propose but the 2nd one in Bannerman Man's post is the best one imo, just letting you know :grin:

edit, for some reason I couldn't think you would make one yourself, let's just move on :grin:
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
@Spinozart1 @Apocal @Dabos37 (or anyone else) Would be nice to see some 20 year tests with the results of clan wealth to compare to our previous versions tests. No worries if you don't feel like it, I'll be able to run some this weekend when I return home.

Here's our 1.6.0 results for quick reference

Test 1 1.6.0 Clan WealthVery PoorPoorAverageRichVery Rich
Aserai
0​
2​
5​
3​
0​
Battania
0​
4​
2​
3​
0​
Khuzait
0​
5​
3​
1​
0​
Northern
0​
5​
2​
2​
0​
Southern
0​
4​
4​
1​
0​
Western
0​
7​
1​
2​
0​
Sturgia
2​
5​
0​
0​
0​
Vlandia
0​
7​
1​
3​
0​
Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRich
Aserai
0​
0​
2​
7​
Battania
0​
3​
1​
4​
Khuzait
0​
8​
0​
1​
Northern
0​
6​
2​
2​
Southern
0​
5​
2​
2​
Western
0​
7​
0​
2​
Sturgia
0​
5​
2​
2​
Vlandia
0​
5​
0​
6​
 
Last edited:

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
@Spinozart1 @Apocal @Dabos37 (or anyone else) Would be nice to see some 20 year tests with the results of clan wealth to compare to our previous versions tests. No worries if you don't feel like it, I'll be able to run some this weekend when I return home.

Here's our 1.6.0 results for quick reference

Oki, I will do some tests this weekend too. On the other hand, it would be interesting to also check this after 10 years. Lords are especially poor in early/mid game.
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Oki, I will do some tests this weekend too. On the other hand, it would be interesting to also check this after 10 years. Lords are especially poor in early/mid game.
Oh yeah great point, checking every 10 (or even 5) would give us a much clearer picture of what’s happening.
 

Spinozart1

Knight
I did 5-10-15-20 years tests and here are the results.
Test 1 1.6.15 yrs5 yrs Strength10 yrs10 yrs Strength15 yrs15 yrs Strength20 yrs20 yrs StrengthOriginal clansRecruited clansRebel clansMercenariesTotal Noble clansTotal clans w/ mercs
Aserai
25​
6174​
23​
6297​
25​
6090​
23​
7018​
9​
3​
0​
0​
12​
12​
Battania
14​
3681​
11​
3403​
10​
3620​
5​
1086​
4​
0​
2​
0​
4​
6​
Khuzait
22​
3551​
23​
5734​
23​
4949​
23​
6714​
9​
1​
0​
0​
10​
10​
Northern
22​
7017​
17​
3392​
16​
3794​
14​
2469​
7​
0​
1​
0​
7​
8​
Southern
19​
4330​
24​
5626​
20​
5683​
20​
6336​
9​
0​
2​
3​
9​
14​
Western
22​
5092​
25​
6959​
26​
8485​
32​
10945​
10​
0​
1​
1​
10​
12​
Sturgia
21​
4502​
23​
6300​
22​
6609​
22​
6004​
9​
0​
0​
0​
9​
9​
Vlandia
28​
6338​
27​
8015​
27​
6249​
32​
9159​
11​
0​
0​
0​
11​
11​
Snowball score
7​
12​
14​
21​

Painful campaign for battania since Y5...
Western is the strongest and the richest. And as usual Vlandia and Aserai are in a good position (top 3).
Funny thing is that Aserai recruited 3 battanian clans around Y20.

 
Last edited:

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
Nice @Spinozart1 , snowball score looking good!

What are the clans wealth looking like?

Also I’m surprised to see 6 rebel clans turned legitimate and recruited, it’s nice to see them mostly spread out amongst the weaker kingdoms.
 

Spinozart1

Knight
Regarding the clan wealth...
Similar to 160 results, none of the clans reached the "Very rich" threshold.
For whatever reason Northern is showing a lot of "very poor" clans on Y20.

(edit) added columns totals

Y5
Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
0​
5​
4​
0​
0​
9​
Battania
0​
7​
1​
0​
0​
8​
Khuzait
3​
6​
0​
0​
0​
9​
Northern
0​
4​
5​
0​
0​
9​
Southern
0​
4​
3​
2​
0​
9​
Western
0​
4​
4​
1​
0​
9​
Sturgia
1​
5​
3​
0​
0​
9​
Vlandia
1​
9​
1​
0​
0​
11​
Total
5​
44​
21​
3​
0​
73​

Y10
Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
0​
6​
2​
1​
0​
9​
Battania
1​
6​
1​
0​
0​
8​
Khuzait
1​
4​
4​
0​
0​
9​
Northern
2​
7​
0​
0​
0​
9​
Southern
0​
5​
3​
1​
0​
9​
Western
0​
4​
5​
0​
0​
9​
Sturgia
0​
4​
4​
1​
0​
9​
Vlandia
0​
7​
3​
1​
0​
11​
Total
4​
43​
22​
4​
0​
73​

Y15
Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
0​
3​
6​
0​
0​
9​
Battania
2​
5​
2​
0​
0​
9​
Khuzait
1​
1​
6​
1​
0​
9​
Northern
6​
3​
0​
0​
0​
9​
Southern
1​
4​
5​
0​
0​
10​
Western
0​
2​
4​
3​
0​
9​
Sturgia
0​
7​
1​
1​
0​
9​
Vlandia
0​
7​
4​
0​
0​
11​
Total
10​
32​
28​
5​
0​
75​

Y20
Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
2​
3​
5​
2​
0​
12​
Battania
3​
3​
0​
0​
0​
6​
Khuzait
1​
8​
1​
0​
0​
10​
Northern
7​
1​
0​
0​
0​
8​
Southern
1​
6​
4​
0​
0​
11​
Western
0​
3​
3​
5​
0​
11​
Sturgia
0​
7​
2​
0​
0​
9​
Vlandia
0​
7​
3​
1​
0​
11​
Total
14​
38​
18​
8​
0​
78​
 
Last edited:

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Snowball score is so good because the AI is actually not able to do much with pretty small armies. Most of kingdoms are barely able to create 600-700 men and are defeated every time they try to besiege something. As you can see, the biggest issue is in the first couple of years where most of the clans are poor (WE is also doing pretty good in my campaign and its clans have the best economy. They probably start with more prosperous settlements).
 

Spinozart1

Knight
Awesome @Spinozart1 ! Could you do me a favor and take a look at what everyone’s wealth is at the very start of a game?
huh sorry I forgot to take the initial picture of the campaign... I can do that but with a new one...

(edit) Here is the intial picture of a new campaign...
Faction ruler's clan starts as "Rich" and the rest is "Average".

Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Battania
0​
0​
7​
1​
0​
8​
Khuzait
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Northern
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Southern
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Western
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Sturgia
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Vlandia
0​
0​
10​
1​
0​
11​
Total
0​
0​
65​
8​
0​
73​


Snowball score is so good because the AI is actually not able to do much with pretty small armies. Most of kingdoms are barely able to create 600-700 men and are defeated every time they try to besiege something. As you can see, the biggest issue is in the first couple of years where most of the clans are poor (WE is also doing pretty good in my campaign and its clans have the best economy. They probably start with more prosperous settlements).
I have added the columns totals and we can see that clan wealth is globally decreasing.
Maybe I should push forward for another 10 years and see how things are changing...

(edit)
With the initial picture, we clearly see the drop after 5 years already...
Something is wrong...
 
Last edited:

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
huh sorry I forgot to take the initial picture of the campaign... I can do that but with a new one...

(edit) Here is the intial picture of a new campaign...
Faction ruler's clan starts as "Rich" and the rest is "Average".

Clan wealthVery poorPoorAverageRichVery richTotal
Aserai
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Battania
0​
0​
7​
1​
0​
8​
Khuzait
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Northern
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Southern
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Western
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Sturgia
0​
0​
8​
1​
0​
9​
Vlandia
0​
0​
10​
1​
0​
11​
Total
0​
0​
65​
8​
0​
73​
Thanks again!
I have added the columns totals and we can see that clan wealth is globally decreasing.
Maybe I should push forward for another 10 years and see how things are changing...

(edit)
With the initial picture, we clearly see the drop after 5 years already...
Something is wrong...
Yeah looking at all this something is definitely wrong.

Here are some graphs for easy comparison.
0Y8Ey.png
It can't be intentional that almost 70% of lords are poor or very poor in 5 years.
zDrf_.png
We can see that in 1.6.0 close to 50% of lords are poor or very poor in the 20th year. There is between 20 -30 % rich clans in 1.6.0 which goes down to 10% in 1.6.1. Worst of all is we see a jump from 0-2% very poor in 1.6.0 to almost 20% in 1.6.1. Something is clearly globally negatively impacting wealth.

It pretty obvious something is wrong, but I do want to get a few more results for 1.6.1 so we can feel extremely confident with these metrics.

Regarding what I think is right? Personally I feel a single town should be able to keep a clan within the average range. With the mechanic that lords go into saving mode at 30k, I think having 70% of lords poor is clearly negatively impacting gameplay .

@lottendill @SadShogun @Duh_TaleWorlds could you guys look into this?
 

SadShogun

A Furtherer of the Calradic Cause
Developer
Thanks again!

Yeah looking at all this something is definitely wrong.

Here are some graphs for easy comparison.
0Y8Ey.png
It can't be intentional that almost 70% of lords are poor or very poor in 5 years.
zDrf_.png
We can see that in 1.6.0 close to 50% of lords are poor or very poor in the 20th year. There is between 20 -30 % rich clans in 1.6.0 which goes down to 10% in 1.6.1. Worst of all is we see a jump from 0-2% very poor in 1.6.0 to almost 20% in 1.6.1. Something is clearly globally negatively impacting wealth.

It pretty obvious something is wrong, but I do want to get a few more results for 1.6.1 so we can feel extremely confident with these metrics.

Regarding what I think is right? Personally I feel a single town should be able to keep a clan within the average range. With the mechanic that lords go into saving mode at 30k, I think having 70% of lords poor is clearly negatively impacting gameplay .

@lottendill @SadShogun @Duh_TaleWorlds could you guys look into this?
We're currently investigating the issue regarding wealth loss in 1.6.1.
One thing is that, the "poor", "very poor" categorization and requirements are increased i.e. they require a higher threshold to go from very poor to poor (now 20K instead of 15K), poor to average etc. This might be one of the reasons.

Of course we will also investigate the absolute wealth changes too.
Thank you for bringing these to our attention.
 

Spinozart1

Knight
Thanks again!

Yeah looking at all this something is definitely wrong.

Here are some graphs for easy comparison.
0Y8Ey.png
It can't be intentional that almost 70% of lords are poor or very poor in 5 years.
zDrf_.png
We can see that in 1.6.0 close to 50% of lords are poor or very poor in the 20th year. There is between 20 -30 % rich clans in 1.6.0 which goes down to 10% in 1.6.1. Worst of all is we see a jump from 0-2% very poor in 1.6.0 to almost 20% in 1.6.1. Something is clearly globally negatively impacting wealth.

It pretty obvious something is wrong, but I do want to get a few more results for 1.6.1 so we can feel extremely confident with these metrics.

Regarding what I think is right? Personally I feel a single town should be able to keep a clan within the average range. With the mechanic that lords go into saving mode at 30k, I think having 70% of lords poor is clearly negatively impacting gameplay .

@lottendill @SadShogun @Duh_TaleWorlds could you guys look into this?
Nice resume!
Sure we need more tests as for example in my test Battania got wrecked up quite fast.
We're currently investigating the issue regarding wealth loss in 1.6.1.
One thing is that, the "poor", "very poor" categorization and requirements are increased i.e. they require a higher threshold to go from very poor to poor (now 20K instead of 15K), poor to average etc. This might be one of the reasons.

Of course we will also investigate the absolute wealth changes too.
Thank you for bringing these to our attention.
Oh that's interesting now. It does explain why we have more very poor status.
So far as I remember, AI lords will stop from being agressive when becoming "very poor" right?
 

Blood Gryphon

Master Knight
WBVC
We're currently investigating the issue regarding wealth loss in 1.6.1.
One thing is that, the "poor", "very poor" categorization and requirements are increased i.e. they require a higher threshold to go from very poor to poor (now 20K instead of 15K), poor to average etc. This might be one of the reasons.
Got ya, just curious did all categories go up by 5k or was it different for each level?
Of course we will also investigate the absolute wealth changes too.
Thank you for bringing these to our attention.
Thanks a bunch, best of luck with your investigation!

Nice resume!
Sure we need more tests as for example in my test Battania got wrecked up quite fast.

Oh that's interesting now. It does explain why we have more very poor status.
So far as I remember, AI lords will stop from being agressive when becoming "very poor" right?
Thanks and I think it’s at 30k that it starts, unless that has changed as well. Personally I think the very poor status should be raised to 30k (or whatever it’s been changed too) so we have an in game indication when a clan is going into that savings mode.
 
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