Information about developments at snowballing problem

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Flesson19

Sergeant
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In some very rare cases if any of faction members cannot pay tribute then tribute debt of kingdom is increasing. This is normal because money could not be paid to other kingdoms and this is hold as debt. So if you join a kingdom you should pay this if there is no money in anyone.

However there was a bug in this scenario, in this case everyday all member's debt to kingdom was also increasing. For example if a lord could not pay its tribute share this is also hold at their debtToKingdom variable and whenever they get money this was taken to pay debtToKingdom. Even we increase this debt also Tribute debt of kingdom was increasing too. So assume 5 lords have to pay 1K tribute each. First day any of them cannot pay and tribute debt was 5K. And all their personal debtToKingdom was being 1K. Second day they should pay (5K+5K) / 5 = 2K each. They cannot pay and tribute debt be 10K. Each get 2K as debt to kingdom. Third day 3K. Fourth day 4K. This debt value (debt to kingdom) was even go over 100Ms+ in 1-2 years. So after this happen this kingdom's lords cannot have money after that. Whenever they get money their money was going to paying debt. It was a bug (wrong calculation of debts) and fixed.
happy that you know about it, also I hope your fixes in 1.5.6 will keep them from going broke, and Last night I got the town voting bug to happen, I emailed the save file to you
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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Here are those settings to run your own test mexxico mentioned
Start a new campaign

skip tutorial, pause the game, open up the cheat console (alt ~)

activate cheats with "console.cheat mode 1"

set the campaign speed with "campaign.multiply_campaign_speed 10"

make your party unattackable with "campaign.set_main_party_attackable 0"

then let it fly with "campaign.move_time_forward 40320" which is essentially a timer to 20 years later and go do something else for awhile as it will take over an hour
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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@mexxico
just got through Test 1 10 years with a snowball score of 98
the 20 year test resulted with a snowball score of 135, 4 factions are essentially eliminated (below 10 points)
Kingdom1.5.5 Test 1 10 years1.5.5 Test 1 20 years
Aserai
26​
15​
Battania
42​
42​
Khuzait
62​
85​
Northern
2​
0​
Southern
4​
4​
Western
10​
3​
Sturgia
0​
0​
Vlandia
28​
24​
Snowball score
98​
135​


Test 2 first 10 years had even worse results with a snowball score of 102, 5 factions down to 11 points and below.
the 20 year result was a snowball score of 140, favoring the battanians this time
KingdomTest 2 10 YearsTest 2 20 Years
Aserai
36​
23
Battania
60​
78
Khuzait
44​
52
Northern
3​
0
Southern
2​
2
Western
10​
0
Sturgia
7​
7
Vlandia
11​
11
Snowball score
102​
140

 
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mexxico

Developer
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@mexxico just got through 10 years with a snowball score of 98, will update with 20 year results soon
Kingdom1.5.5 Test 1 10 years1.5.5 Test 1 20 years
Aserai
26​
Battania
42​
Khuzait
62​
Northern
2​
Southern
4​
Western
10​
Sturgia
0​
Vlandia
28​
Snowball score
98​
Thank you. I will do a test too (probably next week, deal with bugs currently) then we will take average.

It seems removing cav bonus was not enough to fix problem (we already expect this result). Probably 1.5.5 20 year average snowball score will be around 80-100.
 
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Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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Thank you. I will do a test too (probably next week, deal with bugs currently) then we will take average.

It seems even removing cav bonus was not enough to fix problem. Probably 1.5.5 20 year average snowball score will be around 80-100.
Yeah no worries about testing it yourself (bugs fixes are more important), I plan to do a few test to ensure no outliers so we can take avg of those and other players.

Yeah I mean I didn't expect much from that nerf because the AI don't fight even siege battles. They are just too fast on the map (but you already know that)

Also interestingly, I started this test off my new campaign where i am married and have 1 caravan already (only a few months in). I'm not sure when the caravan was destroyed over the 10 year period, but looking at my total gold it netted me around 550k. Now of course I wasn't in any wars and the only thing that could kill it was bandits, but there is no doubt caravans are a great investment.
 
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Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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Also new born heroes were not being active when they reach 18 years. They were not forming armies. This bug is also fixed.
Just checked new born children and none of them are active at 18. My own child is not active. Just want to confirm with you that this fix is not in 1.5.5 yet, correct?

Also just updated the last post with 20 year test results
 

mexxico

Developer
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Just checked new born children and none of them are active at 18. My own child is not active. Just want to confirm with you that this fix is not in 1.5.5 yet, correct?

Also just updated the last post with 20 year test results
It will be fixed at 1.5.6, already fixed but not at 1.5.5. Thanks for report seems like at 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 only 4-5 kingdom can survive at first 20 years. Most of our tests proved this.

Were you guys still planning on integrating the separatism into the game to also help with snowballing?
Rebellions will be added to game at 1.5.6 (25%) or 1.5.7 (75%)
 
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Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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It will be fixed at 1.5.6, already fixed but not at 1.5.5. Thanks for report seems like at 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 only 4-5 kingdom can survive at first 20 years. Most of our tests proved this.
Cool glad to know it won't be an issue in 1.5.6, just curious will the AI children spawn with equipment once adults? (I know they don't right now, but maybe thats because they dont become active?)

Starting up test 2 right now.
 

mexxico

Developer
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Cool glad to know it won't be an issue in 1.5.6, just curious will the AI children spawn with equipment once adults? (I know they don't right now, but maybe thats because they dont become active?)

Starting up test 2 right now.
I do not answer of this question. Not dealing with these stuff.
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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I do not answer of this question. Not dealing with these stuff.
No problem! I'm just a little worried about AI children activating with no equipment besides their children cloths (totally fine for player kids), but I'm sure its not actually a issue.
 

Dabos37

Knight at Arms
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No problem! I'm just a little worried about AI children activating with no equipment besides their children cloths (totally fine for player kids), but I'm sure its not actually a issue.
Kids worked some patches ago and my son got activated with exactly my same equipment. It will probably the case when gets fixed.


It will be fixed at 1.5.6, already fixed but not at 1.5.5. Thanks for report seems like at 1.5.4 and 1.5.5 only 4-5 kingdom can survive at first 20 years. Most of our tests proved this.



Rebellions will be added to game at 1.5.6 (25%) or 1.5.7 (75%)
Nice! Thanks
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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Kids worked some patches ago and my son got activated with exactly my same equipment. It will probably the case when gets fixed.
Good to know, I've only tested children in the 1.5 patch series and it has been bugged since at least 1.5.
 

Flesson19

Sergeant
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I did 2 games and both times the S empire and N empire get taken down to 1 fief and all the lords go broke, between that and not being able to vote on fiefs it seems like snowball tests won't be accurate till they are fixed
 

Old-Bull

Sergeant at Arms
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I did 2 games and both times the S empire and N empire get taken down to 1 fief and all the lords go broke, between that and not being able to vote on fiefs it seems like snowball tests won't be accurate till they are fixed
The snowball fixes aren't in this patch. They're in the next one.
 

mexxico

Developer
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yes but the voting bug and lords running out of money need to be fixed or it will still happen
Snowball has no relation with open-close at same moment voting bug, this voting bug only effects player other voting bug (if player is in kingdom no new peace is happening) is fixed. And I am not dealing with that open-close at same moment voting bug this is another dev’s area. I sent your posts link to him.

Snowball fixes will be at 1.5.6 for comparision its good different players make their own 20 year test at 1.5.5 and post results here.
 

CrazyElf

Regular
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So after this happen this kingdom's lords cannot have money after that. Whenever they get money their money was going to paying debt. It was a bug (wrong calculation of debts) and fixed.
After this fix, does this mean that although indebted, indebted kingdoms can accumulate at least some money to run their operations?

The way I think about this, kingdoms who are cash strapped should prioritize their own needs first and then only pay tribute with what is left.
 

Blood Gryphon

Sergeant Knight
WBVC
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@mexxico I've been thinking about why Sturgia is one of the normal losers and something that stood out to me was that most of the sturgian towns only have 2 villages. This puts them at a massive disadvantage for several reasons especially considering their heavy geographic handicap.

The geographic handicap I want to point out is that compared to kingdoms like Battania (one of two most common winners) is that only about half of Sturgia's town/villages are within the same sized area as Battania which results in less notables and thus troops to recruit from in a similar amount of time (thus time to recover is longer). The red circles on the map are the exact same size, I made one around Battania and then copy/pasted it and moved it onto Sturgia.
We see in your 1.5.6 example that Battania is able to fight back and regain their territory even after losing two towns, I believe this is due to the fact they have a much faster recovery time as far as recruiting troops back after defeats. Sturgians simply have to travel too far to recover at a similar rate as the Battanians. It also likely has to do with what I first pointed out in this thread, Battania never lost clans even after losing two of their towns and could come back (clan desertion = death of faction).

My hypothesis is, without a rework of the map, Sturgia needs more villages for its towns (3 or 4 vil/town, High priority) and potentially another castle or two in key spots like one near Varnovapol and Sibir and one between Varcheg and Ov (lower priority)

Now lets get into the data and how I got the numbers for the map (plus stats for all factions)

The * denotes the numbers for the Sturgian towns/castles/villages/notables/troops in the red circle; all of Battania is in the red circle.

When looking at Town villages, Sturgia gets on avg about 2 villages a Town while other kingdoms get about 3 per town. You could argue that Sturgia has 7 towns, but Vlandia and Aserai have 8 towns with 22 town villages compared to Sturgias 16 town villages so there is no excuse not to increase the amount of villages in Sturgia. Pack Sturgia full of villages like Battannia, Aserai and Vlandia. Looking at Northern Empire they could use this same treatment.
Starting KingdomTownsTown VillagesVillages Per TownCastleCastle VillagesTotal Villages
Northern Emp
6​
14​
2.3​
9​
18​
32​
Sturgia *
7 (3*)​
16 (6*)​
2.3 (2*)​
8 (4*)​
16 (8*)​
32 (14*)​
Battania *
5​
17​
3.4​
8​
16​
33​
Western Emp
6​
15​
2.5​
9​
18​
33​
Southern Emp
7​
18​
2.6​
8​
16​
34​
Khuzait
6​
17​
2.8​
9​
18​
35​
Vlandia
8​
22​
2.8​
8​
16​
38​
Aserai
8​
22​
2.8​
9​
18​
40​


I got notable numbers by starting 3 new playthroughs in 1.5.5 and using the encyclopedia to count notables. This is necessary as the amount of notables is fluid as they are lost and replaced over time. * Keep in mind Battania might seem low, but their tight proximity shows they have on avg 9 more notables in the same size area as the Sturgians.
Starting KingdomTown Notables start 1Town Notables start 2Town Notables start 3Town Notables start Avg
Northern Emp
24​
35​
33​
31​
Sturgia *
40 (18*)​
38 (18*)​
37 (18*)​
38(18*)​
Battania *
27​
27​
27​
27​
Western Emp
33​
37​
36​
35​
Southern Emp
38​
35​
35​
36​
Khuzait
36​
34​
29​
33​
Vlandia
42​
36​
42​
40​
Aserai
43​
41​
39​
41​


This table shows how limited Sturgia's potential Troop recruit amount is compared to other factions. Along with counting town notables at the start (which I will use as an average), I calculated what the notable lows and highs would be if they went down to 4 notables (lowest ive seen) or got to the highest 7 notables (highest ive seen). For villages i used 2 as the low and 3 as the high. I actually like the fact these are fluid as that will help with dynamic playthroughs and help randomize who should win, but clearly we have some out of balance possibilities. Even when comparing Sturgias troop recruit high of 378 in the red circle its still lower than Battanias 516 low. Aserai has a comparable geographic area to Sturgia, I think if we want to see Sturgia not get rolled over like they always do they need to have similar Troop recruit potentials as Aserai does (Aserai on avg has 23 more notables to recruit from because it has an extra town and 8 villages more than Sturgia).
Starting KingdomTown Notable Low (4 per town)Town Notable AverageTown Notable High (7 per town)Village Notables low (2 per vill)Village Notables AverageVillage Notables High (3 per vill)Total Notables LowTotal Notables AvgTotal Notables HighTotal Troop Recruits LowTotal Troop Recruits AvgTotal Troop Recruits High
Northern Emp
24​
31​
42​
64​
80​
96​
88​
111
138​
528​
666
828​
Sturgia *28 (12*)38(18*)49 (21*)64 (28*)80 (35*)96 (42*)92 (40*)118 (53*)145 (63*)552(240*)708(318*)870(378*)
Battania *
20​
27​
35​
66​
83​
99
86​
110
134​
516​
657
804​
Western Emp
24​
35​
42​
66​
83​
99​
90​
118
141​
540​
705
846​
Southern Emp
28​
36​
49​
68​
85​
102​
96​
121
151​
576​
726
906​
Khuzait
24​
33​
42​
70​
88​
105​
94​
121
147​
564​
723
882​
Vlandia
32​
40​
56​
76​
95​
114​
108​
135
170​
648​
810
1020​
Aserai
32​
41​
56​
80​
100​
120​
112​
141
176​
672​
846
1056​

Let me know what you guys think about these potential fixes for Sturgia's current problem
 
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