Information about developments at snowballing problem

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danEN

Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
Reason of why Khuzait is 90% strongest faction is this :
Khuzait parties have 32% cavalry ratio while others have 12% average. I totally removed all speed bonus effect of cavalry units (60%) and footman with horse at inventory (30%) too see what will happen and result is this at 11th year of game (you probably first see something like this which Khuzait left only 4 towns without player interaction at late game (10+ years)) :
FLsc-.png

This is not intended. This only happens because of wrong design decisions (deciding something without thinking side effects). There is 60% speed bonus for cavalry units currently (means if your all party is cavalry you get 60% speed bonus if half is cavalry you get 30% and so on...). Lets say average party speed is 10 for 100 men all footmen party. Then average Khuzait party consist of 32% cavalry troops their speed become 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.32 = 11.92 while others are 10 + 10 x 0.6 x 0.12 = 10.72; so mostly Khuzait parties can run away from stronger parties and can catch weaker parties. Always decider is Khuzait party in party meetings. They can catch or run away. So they usullay enter battles which they can win they collect more loot they lose less battles they save their troops from stronger enemies they have more money they have stronger garrisons because their economy is good even they collect recruits faster (even this is minor). When they start a siege if defender army come they can run away. They can defend their settlements easier they can go sieged town faster (minor effect too). All are positive.

What can be done :
1-We should increase cavalry ratio at other factions. I am not saying all should same but if Khuzaits have 32% cav ratio others should have 15-20% not 12%.
2-We should lower 60% mounted units speed bonus to 40% or 50%. 60% is so much and so OP.
3-We can give several disadvantages to Khuzaits like less recruits or something else.

Even we do these still problem will be there (according to how harsh 3 is) but it will be less problem at least. I added first 2 solutions to 1.5.7 and average snowball score dropped to 50s from 60s.

I am ok with unbalanced design if Khuzaits are a bit better (fe 40% of time they have dominance at late game) but currently they are not a bit better than others there is a major difference (90% they have dominance at late game). After snowballing fixes at 1.5.6 they can get at most 50-60 fief points at 20th year of game in past this was about 70-80 fief points (towns 1, castles 2). In 1.5.7 it will be 40-50. (All world is 173)
Any plans to buff the empire factions or is it just set in rule by lore that they're always to be weak and crumbling?
 

Vicmona

Veteran
WBNW
So we need to add some important disadvantages to Khuzait to stop them to fix this solution completely.
@mexxico Here is a quick brainstorm:

1. Creating an additional spear unit type in simulations with bonus against cavalry.
2. Just like sturgians, additional campaign speed bonus can be only limited to plains and ineffective at forest, desert, snow, river etc. Or it can be completely limited to khuzait territories
3. Giving additional speed penalty at snow, forest, desert, mountain if party's cavalry raito exceeds %25 because more living things to look after at challenging terrains.
4. Making khuzait garrison weaker.
5. Additional simulation penalty for khuzait at sieges. Moral and movement speed penalty at siege mission.
6. Loyalty and security penalties at towns because they were nomads. (kind of).

Some of them can break game balance but suggestion is suggestion.
 
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Oakenlix

Veteran
It can be done too but this damages food economy at game and we need to add developments to food & money management of parties. So I do not prefer this for now. These kind of things are basics of game and hard to change now however I accept it is a good solution alternative still it will not be enough of course it will create additional expense to Khuzait compared to others only. It will be something like add extra daily 90 denars (3-6 food) of cost to Khuzait parties and daily 30 denars (1-2 food) to others.
Wouldn't they just have to keep their armies smaller to maintain the party costs on the same level? So the economy would stay the same, but Khuzaits would have less troops. Or instead of making horses consume extra food, just raising the wage cost for all cavalry units could maybe work?

I might be wrong of course, and sorry if it already has been discussed in the past, but it seems to me the right approach (and the most natural one) would be to nerf cavalry in general, not a specific faction. Because otherwise you get factions being balanced for AI, but imbalanced for player who decides to go full cavalry party for example and becomes too strong.

Cavalry obviously has to have a travel speed advantage, what could be the disadvantages to balance it out? Higher upkeep cost is the first thing that comes to mind.
 

Nalgasucia507

Sergeant
Wouldn't they just have to keep their armies smaller to maintain the party costs on the same level? So the economy would stay the same, but Khuzaits would have less troops. Or instead of making horses consume extra food, just raising the wage cost for all cavalry units could maybe work?

I might be wrong of course, and sorry if it already has been discussed in the past, but it seems to me the right approach (and the most natural one) would be to nerf cavalry in general, not a specific faction. Because otherwise you get factions being balanced for AI, but imbalanced for player who decides to go full cavalry party for example and becomes too strong.

Cavalry obviously has to have a travel speed advantage, what could be the disadvantages to balance it out? Higher upkeep cost is the first thing that comes to mind.

I agree with a higher upkeep, across the board, to all and any cavalry units. Of course low tier cav shouldn't be that expensive, but high tier units should be very expensive. Gota feed those noble ponies high tier grains and oats.
 

D0c1

Knight
Have you ever considered that, like Warband, the top cavalry of Khuzait is only Tier 4. The top infantry is Tier 3.

Their Tier 2 is cavalry, can be powerful, and pays the price.

In my mod, the Battania cavalry is Tier 3. Sturgia archer is Tier 4. Empire rider archer is Tier 4.
I imitated Warband to make different arms of different cultures.
@mexxico. i know troop trees aren't your specialty but maybe you can bring this up with the upper management guys?
in warband, highest khergit troops were only level 21 while other factions had levels 24-28.

khuzaits can keep their tier 5 horse archers but lose the other units tiers. maybe have the lancers tier 4, archers tier 4 and infantry tier 3 or 2.

other factions can have the same thing done to them depending on their lore strengths and weaknesses.
empire can have everything on tier 4 to show that it is the balanced faction.

this way, you might be able to balance the game while keeping factions unique. instead of giving them all a boost to cavalry numbers.
 
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Nalgasucia507

Sergeant
@mexxico. i know troop trees aren't your specialty but maybe you can bring this up with the upper management guys?
in warband, highest khergit troops were only level 21 while other factions had levels 24-28.
khuzaits can keep their tier 5 horse archers but lose the othert units tiers. maybe have the lancers tier 4, archers tier 4 and infantry tier 3 or 2.

other factions can have the same thing done to them depending on their lore strengths and weaknesses.
empire can have everything on tier 4 to show that it is the balanced faction.

this way, you might be able to balance the game while keeping factions unique. instead of giving them all a boost to cavalry numbers.

I think this same approach can be used for if/when TW gives us a choice in native to create our own troop tree.
 

babelfisch

Sergeant at Arms
No, only solutions 1-2 will be applied so they will dominate 20-25% of map at 20th year instead of 25-30% (without player interaction) means things will be a bit better. These numbers are all averages of course they can dominate 20% or 30% or 40% in different runs but I do not think you can see below 20%. (average is 13% per faction normally)

So we need to add some important disadvantages to Khuzait to stop them to fix this solution completely.
Two random ideas:
1. Everyone wants more diplomacy including alliances. If one faction becomes too strong other factions could ally against them.
2. Increase culture penalty for Khuzaits making rebellions more likely.

I think it's not necessarily bad if one faction is generally stronger than the others, historically alliances and culture would be the limiting factor for expansion.
 

Dabos37

Sergeant Knight
@mexxico is there an easy way to see how many castles or cities a faction have?

Just press key N, go to kingdoms, select the kingdom you want to check and you will be able to see all the kingdom’s fiefs. Maybe there is an easier and faster way to check it but I use that way.

Concerning how to make Khuzaits weaker... Uhmm, I like the suggestion about make Khuzaits’ garrison weaker but not sure if it will be enough. Increasing chance of rebellions for them too, but it will feel a bit weird, especially if the player plays a Khuzaits. I personally prefer a way to penalize big kingdoms instead of especifícalos giving nerfs for Khuzaits. Anyway, reducing prosperity and villages hearths is an easy way to slow down snowballing. Not great because at some point Khuzaits will be able to get pretty strong anyway but maybe not as easy as before when I tested it in 1.5.5.
 
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sniparsexe

Knight at Arms
Just press key N, go to kingdoms, select the kingdom you want to check and you will be able to see all the kingdom’s fiefs. Maybe there is an easier and faster way to check it but I use that way.
I guess that's the easiest way, I was searching for something like campaign.print_faction_fiefs
 

Worlok

Squire
Two random ideas:
1. Everyone wants more diplomacy including alliances. If one faction becomes too strong other factions could ally against them.
This is very unfortunate that alliances were rejected from plans. That could possibly solve the Khuzait problem however could cause many unpredictable issues though.

Maybe some light version of alliance like automatic non-agression pact of smaller factions which are in war with Khuzaits.

I think the mechanism of non-agression pack would not be very complicated to implement. To predict the results caused by it would be more difficult. I am for one to give it a try and test it :smile: if it would cause too many troubles still can be dropped.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
Finite Horses. Solves Khuzait problem.

Khuzaits have more horse-producing villages than any other faction. More than Vlandia, Sturgia and Battania put together. It would make the problem worse because other factions would have next to no mounted units.
 
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This is very unfortunate that alliances were rejected from plans. That could possibly solve the Khuzait problem however could cause many unpredictable issues though.

Maybe some light version of alliance like automatic non-agression pact of smaller factions which are in war with Khuzaits.

I think the mechanism of non-agression pack would not be very complicated to implement. To predict the results caused by it would be more difficult. I am for one to give it a try and test it :smile: if it would cause too many troubles still can be dropped.

Many games have alliances, not sure how people have come to view this as a difficult idea to achieve. The only thing difficult would navigating TW's mess of code they have.
 

froggyluv

Master Knight
NW
Khuzaits have more horse-producing villages than every other faction. More than Vlandia, Sturgia and Battania put together. It would make the problem worse because other factions would have next to no mounted units.

Yeah but that would make for at least some interesting resource managing (hint:attacking) strategies. Political plot 'Kill dem Ponies!". Every culture in real life had some natural advantage and some natural disadvantage to their situation -let this dynamic play out. Or throw in a caveat of quality of horse- there are surely dynamic ways to address the issue

a +20 Auto calc for all battles due to Calvary is probably the worst idea ive ever seen unaddressed (last time i played that is)
 

Worlok

Squire
Many games have alliances, not sure how people have come to view this as a difficult idea to achieve. The only thing difficult would navigating TW's mess of code they have.
In your last sentence you answered the first where you wonder why. The game just appears to lack the necessary components.

Here are few I can think of:
- kingdom borders and territory
- dyplomacy relation system between factions
- kingdom level army management
- real economy

I believe the problem is that they did not prepare the game design for this and at this point it would be just too comolicated to redesigne it.
Just one example, player party control. Command party to not raid villages outside kingdom borders, or protect territory near your castle and villages. This is all impossible because there is no definition in the game for these areas. At least that is what I understood from multiple threads.
There is no componenet for communication between factions/kingdome rulers. Thats why we have one sided war/peace declarations.

Etc, etc...
 

Nalgasucia507

Sergeant
In your last sentence you answered the first where you wonder why. The game just appears to lack the necessary components.

Here are few I can think of:
- kingdom borders and territory
- dyplomacy relation system between factions
- kingdom level army management
- real economy

I believe the problem is that they did not prepare the game design for this and at this point it would be just too comolicated to redesigne it.
Just one example, player party control. Command party to not raid villages outside kingdom borders, or protect territory near your castle and villages. This is all impossible because there is no definition in the game for these areas. At least that is what I understood from multiple threads.
There is no componenet for communication between factions/kingdome rulers. Thats why we have one sided war/peace declarations.

Etc, etc...

I would cheer on TW if they extend the EA for a full year after the original EA deadline to refactor completely their code so as to include a lot of our feedback.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
@mexxico do you need more test runs of 1.5.6?

And would it be helpful if we started doing test runs with the cav bonus cut down to 40 or 50%?

Yeah but that would make for at least some interesting resource managing (hint:attacking) strategies.

If even you don't think your idea would fixx snowballing -- and would almost certainly make it worse -- why would you offer it as a suggestion in this thread?

Command party to not raid villages outside kingdom borders, or protect territory near your castle and villages. This is all impossible because there is no definition in the game for these areas.

Uh, yes there is. How do you think the game determines the "Patrolling around X..." status otherwise? It is the same code that is already in use by the AI regarding alarm state weighting and in the mods (as far as I can tell) that allow players to setup patrols of their territory.
 
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