Infantry and Archer speed (Skirmish)

[Crypex]

I noticed with infantry and archers that Infantry takes forever to catch up to archers running away from them. In many scenarios, I will see the archer just run away and the chase will continue for whole minutes. I believe that the archers outrunning wildings are silly and should and to a degree make infantry faster. I do not believe archers should be slower but infantry should at least be able to catch up to them so teams that run 4 archer build at least have to pay a price instead of completely skipping infantry fights in the first place. This is even worse with khuzait and aserai. Instead of making their infantry very subpar instead just make it viable. The best approach would be running an 8th custom class that can adapt to faction deficiencies. EDIT: The 8th Class can be a mercenary class that is standard across all factions. This is just an idea and many fruitful things can come up from this.

 

[Mushbeast]

I agree, it's super annoying trying to chase down archers and there should be at least one class that specializes in it. That last idea about an extra custom class seems like it could be a good compromise for the classes/loadout debate too

 

[Mabons]

Yeah whatever have heavy infantry outrun by anything but a skirmisher should catch up to and be able to kill an archer, but as it stands (from when I last played) archers can outrun infantry for 10s of minutes until they find an ally to help them.

 

[Mushbeast]

Speaking mainly from TDM gameplay (where there inevitably ends up tens of archers scattered across rooftops wrecking everyone) the most annoying part to me is that most of the time you can't even run away from an archer. Even with a shield, a good position and a head-start in running away, most of the time you're just simply too slow to get out in time, let alone think about pushing the archer.

I guess it's part of how the maps are designed as well, with a lot of TDM maps having sneaky areas for archers to defend which become practically impossible to push at all if there's more than one archer. Couple that with the spawn system letting archers spawn behind you after you've finally cleared them from their position. Rough stuff.

All in all, I don't get how more people aren't complaining about this, though I guess it's more of a TDM issue than anything. Definitely not fun to play against, especially when you feel so helpless and useless being so damn slow.

 

[Alkix]

What's the actual issue here? I'm looking at the movement speeds and I see that archers are always the slowest. Does running with a shield slow you down or something?

 

[Zoonanay]

What's the actual issue here? I'm looking at the movement speeds and I see that archers are always the slowest. Does running with a shield slow you down or something?

Shields do slow down movement rather significantly, particularly if equipped and even more so if blocking. An example is a Khans Guard with Glaive will outrun Legionary w/ shield equipped, even more so if the Legionary is carrying a spear too. However, if the Legionary drops/unequips their shield they'll be slightly faster, albeit now an easy target.

I believe the movement stat seen on classes is their athletics level rather than estimated movement speed, but I'm not certain if that is the case.

 

[hoonii]

Shields do slow down movement rather significantly, particularly if equipped and even more so if blocking. An example is a Khans Guard with Glaive will outrun Legionary w/ shield equipped, even more so if the Legionary is carrying a spear too. However, if the Legionary drops/unequips their shield they'll be slightly faster, albeit now an easy target.

I believe the movement stat seen on classes is their athletics level rather than estimated movement speed, but I'm not certain if that is the case.

Every unit is able to run away from the Legionary because Legionary is the bannerlord definition of a t r a c t o r. Idk but battanian oathsworn has 79 speed whereas the legionary has like 73 I think (I did a double check and legionaries are not 73 but 77 speed, still oathsworn remains the fastest heavy melee and legionary with armor and heavy weapons will still be too slow to catch archers) and oathsworn with improved armor has 52 armor which is bs(vlandian sergeant has 77 speed with 37 normal 46 improved armor) with one of the strongest 1h swords which is another total bs. I agree archers should be slowed down, but not the light ones, I mean you can catch up to a sharpshooter with shield(which is 90% of the time) pretty easily and it would make sense for light skirmishers and archers to be able to run away as they were supposed to in the battlefield.

 

[Alkix]

Every unit is able to run away from the Legionary because Legionary is the bannerlord definition of a t r a c t o r. Idk but battanian oathsworn has 79 speed whereas the legionary has like 73 I think (I did a double check and legionaries are not 73 but 77 speed, still oathsworn remains the fastest heavy melee and legionary with armor and heavy weapons will still be too slow to catch archers) and oathsworn with improved armor has 52 armor which is bs(vlandian sergeant has 77 speed with 37 normal 46 improved armor) with one of the strongest 1h swords which is another total bs. I agree archers should be slowed down, but not the light ones, I mean you can catch up to a sharpshooter with shield(which is 90% of the time) pretty easily and it would make sense for light skirmishers and archers to be able to run away as they were supposed to in the battlefield.

One thing to consider is that shielded infantry doesn't need to be able to catch up to ranged. They can sit on point and take the fire.

 

[Dextrus]

Pretty sure that all infantry can outrun archers. Just takes forever.

 

[Zoonanay]

I think heavy infantry's movement speed should be increased, they feel like armoured slugs.

But the best solution to speed, in my eyes, is having a more gradual acceleration.

Both infantry and archers need a similar starting acceleration, so as to not significantly effect melee footwork.

After a short period archers should have greater acceleration, an opportunity to outrun and seek assistance from team mates.

Eventually top speed will be reached, at this point infantry should have a significantly higher speed, enabling them to outrun and catch their targets.

Right now it's way too easy for archers to set up crossfires and way too difficult to force them into an engagement. This should address both issues at once.

Unrelated but kind of related, if light infantry classes had larger shields (even if it was a perk) it'd give them a dedicated niche and make them much more viable in general.

 

[Hans 77]

One thing to consider is that shielded infantry doesn't need to be able to catch up to ranged. They can sit on point and take the fire.

Hard disagree.

If a team simply passively turtles point, then any opponent with two or more brain cells will outmaneuver them and set up a crossfire. Any inf the turtle team has sitting on flag are doing nothing, and therefore removing themselves from the engagement, while the other team still has all the available resources (see: players) to work toward their goal: the elimination of their opponents.

This is called a comparative advantage, and it's why the strategy of sitting on point and taking fire doesn't work (I've personally seen it fail many times in tournament play).

It fails because every member of your team needs to be actively affecting a member of the opposing side, or else your team will be suffocated by superior angles (crossfires) or defeated-in-detail through cherry-picked favorable mismatches (2v1) for your opponent. Nothing allows these mistakes to manifest faster than passively sitting on point while your opponent outhustles you.

The proper counter-play once you have final point control is to interpose yourself between the flag and the opponent, and then put the pressure on them. Push into your opponent and then force them to divert resources away from the fight and over to the flag -which they must retake or they will lose.



And this finally brings us to the main topic of this thread: The unbalanced infantry and archer speed.

How can one apply the proper counter play -that is, pushing into the enemy and putting pressure on them, when the infantry on your team (the guys with shields) can't put adequate pressure on the other team's archers?

The archers can kite forever. They can run and run and run and the inf can't catch them. The inf can maybe catch up over a long period of time, but only if they unequip their shields (whose main purpose is protect against ranged attacks). This is perfect example of a Catch-22, and such inane and backwards logic doesn't belong in an (ideally balanced) competitive game. Additionally, constantly having to chase after an enemy archer puts the inf player out of position, allowing the archer's other ranged teammates to pick him, or friendly cav to swoop in and get the inf.

In terms of game balance, archers already have very nice dps and, obviously, the ability to kill from long range (in a game where 33%-66% of most team comps are melee units with the movement speed of slugs). I feel like infantry needs to be able to close the gap quicker, be it through the tweaking of acceleration speed or top speed to inf classes, archers, or some combination of both.

 

[Mushbeast]

The truth, the truth and nothing but the truth.

This is worded really well and sums up just about all my thoughts on the matter. I'll add on top that it's just straight up frustrating and boring to play against, which majority of us know by now.

 

[Moton]

Every unit is able to run away from the Legionary because Legionary is the bannerlord definition of a t r a c t o r. Idk but battanian oathsworn has 79 speed whereas the legionary has like 73 I think (I did a double check and legionaries are not 73 but 77 speed, still oathsworn remains the fastest heavy melee and legionary with armor and heavy weapons will still be too slow to catch archers) and oathsworn with improved armor has 52 armor which is bs(vlandian sergeant has 77 speed with 37 normal 46 improved armor) with one of the strongest 1h swords which is another total bs. I agree archers should be slowed down, but not the light ones, I mean you can catch up to a sharpshooter with shield(which is 90% of the time) pretty easily and it would make sense for light skirmishers and archers to be able to run away as they were supposed to in the battlefield.

Altho one can argue that because Battania has the worst cav in the game they should have faster and better melee infantary, fits the lore aswell. Empire has good cav, good archers and good infantary, why should their infantary be as fast and strong as Battania?

I dont think we should push for totally equal factions, that would dumb it down and simply turn the factions to different estetics of the same units. Boring!

 

[Greedalicious]

Shields do slow down movement rather significantly, particularly if equipped and even more so if blocking. An example is a Khans Guard with Glaive will outrun Legionary w/ shield equipped, even more so if the Legionary is carrying a spear too. However, if the Legionary drops/unequips their shield they'll be slightly faster, albeit now an easy target.

I believe the movement stat seen on classes is their athletics level rather than estimated movement speed, but I'm not certain if that is the case.

Pretty much. As far as I remember, equipment weight didnt effect movement speed at all at the start (alpha) but eventually it was added in. I dont think they considered how much it mattered for movement speed. Shields slow you down alot and the game does a poor job of showing you that, since the movement speed value wont update according to your equipment settings. Weapons also dont show their weight, so you're left wondering how heavy this n that is.
This is why archers are still able to run away and make melee fighting infuriating, and why two handers are so much faster than other infantry.

 

[greedogre]

This is why archers are still able to run away and make melee fighting infuriating, and why two handers are so much faster than other infantry.

agree every word you said, i just wanna add something for heavy infantry weapon choice, most of the weapon you take against shield infantry like mace or axe are short most are under 80 reach and some are barely exceed 80 with exception of stugia axe ofc, ideally you wanna long reach weapon to battle 2hand but most of the time you end up with short weapon, slow moment and lower dmg, against 2h in 1v1 situation. it's just not fun at all.

yesterday just watch one of the best player in my region in a last stand 1v1 situation with 1h shield against valandian volger, and his soluion is to search for a throw axe in about minite on surround area then throw and kill the guy, it's just aweful to watch, a best thing a best skill player can come up with against 2h volge is a throw weapon, dont even wanna risk it, what a desgin choice.

 

[vfkaseke]

All infantry is already faster than archers. Even the heavy kind. If you're not catching up to archers, it's because you're holding your shield up while giving chase. You should be able to put the shield up before getting shot if you have any semblance of the reflexes needed to play this game.

 

[tom54p]

All infantry is already faster than archers. Even the heavy kind. If you're not catching up to archers, it's because you're holding your shield up while giving chase. You should be able to put the shield up before getting shot if you have any semblance of the reflexes needed to play this game.

?

 

[The Last Vandal]

All infantry is already faster than archers. Even the heavy kind. If you're not catching up to archers, it's because you're holding your shield up while giving chase. You should be able to put the shield up before getting shot if you have any semblance of the reflexes needed to play this game.

What did you say man? Did you ever used to play skirmish or any game mode where you should push enemy archer and risk to find his friends nearby or being under crossfire? You can catch archer only if:
1. Archer has a shield.
2. And you still waste much time for catch him.
And its OK because its only way to make archers viable in game with bumping horses, crashing twohanders and pushing shield bearers. All archery gameplay looks like shooting, escaping and then shooting again.

 

[Mushbeast]

All infantry is already faster than archers. Even the heavy kind. If you're not catching up to archers, it's because you're holding your shield up while giving chase. You should be able to put the shield up before getting shot if you have any semblance of the reflexes needed to play this game.

In practice it don't really work out like that my man

 

[JAOOGA]

The archers can kite forever. They can run and run and run and the inf can't catch them. The inf can maybe catch up over a long period of time, but only if they unequip their shields (whose main purpose is protect against ranged attacks).

This, especially when you decide to chase them they basically make your whole team get exposed for other archers. But even worst are the horse archers where they can easily surround your team