In my opinion the mod mechanics works against lords

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Well, that's the point. If the castles are money makers (as they are with my suggestion), holding them means getting rich. As opposed to the current situation, when it actually means getting poor (as Xerone has pointed out).

The only thing that can force people to act in one way or another in this mod is shiny gold. People love have their fancy gear. Then there are those who don't give a ****. But those you cannot incentivize one way or another anyway.
 
If craft stocks were low at the start of a map and crafting had decent rewards it would be positive.

I'd also like to see a portion of money when something is crafted go to the lords chest. This way there would always be people fighting over crafting jobs in castle while making money for the lord to distribute to others.
 
In all honesty, Vornne has a very particular idea in mind when it comes to crafting. Hence I have sketched ideas for new gameplays that do no rely on Vornne changing the mod in any way. If you think there should be changes in the mod, there is a suggestions thread.

I honestly think that exports are not that unrealistic and one could very well rationalize them in the context of taxing a side of the economy that "doesn't show" in the mod.

Capturing a castle should be interesting because the castle is worth something. However, I would rather make this endogenous to the gameplay and not so much some out of nowhere reward.
 
In case anyone is confused, the "tax" is not removed from the serf's income. If an export has a 100% tax on it, the serf gets his normal profit, and the castle earns the same amount for each item sold. If it has a 20% tax, the serf earns his normal profit, and the castle gets 20% of that amount. The castle's money is generated separately, so the serf doesn't lose any cash, but the castle earns some simply because the serf sold it there.
 
Knüppel said:
Instead of more and more specific map designs, how about we go back to the basics, place castles, ressources they have to fight over and screw that ridiculous "neutral" villages and merchant castles.

I agree with this useless neutral factions.

 
Korbal said:
Knüppel said:
Instead of more and more specific map designs, how about we go back to the basics, place castles, ressources they have to fight over and screw that ridiculous "neutral" villages and merchant castles.

I agree with this useless neutral factions.

Raging Womble said:
I suggested a reward for capping castle but Vornne said it would be abused

There are far more ways to abuse this mod.
 
I side with the no out of nowhere reward for capturing a castle. A castle should be interesting to the castle owner. It should be precious and worth dying for.

Offering a castle capture reward would only make it interesting for the capturing faction. Hence once you got the castle, why try to keep it? Furthermore, the incentive would be to let them capture to then recapture yourself. Clearly it doesn't work.

Some people have suggested castle chests that provide a stream of gold. Coming from nowhere, just an amount of gold every X minutes.

Although this is moving more in the right direction (castles should be precious to the owner), it is still problematic. It is completely detached from every other feature of the game. Surely no one wants to reward people for sitting in their castle with the doors locked.

Hence my suggestion goes in the line of the last one but introduces an element of dependency from the exterior to castle owners. Money will flow automatically to your chest IF you manage to have goods delivered to your castle.

Now you want to keep the castle AND encourage trade to it. This opens the possibility to far more interesting interactions. For instance, Lords have an interest in providing a "safe" economic environment, since bandits directly hurt their chests. Serfs naturally flow to protected environments (see the hated / loved neutral villages with soldier classes, like Burglen or some Glunmars), meaning that an organized powerful faction has an advantage over some random dudes roaming the map.

Creating this environment is not as easy as it seems, though.

First, one needs to make sure that serfs understand that they can sell goods ONLY inside castles.

Second, factions have to be the BEST way to make money. Else, not much has changed, just some people have looted a slightly more lucrative chest. However, if the chest is not the chicken of the golden eggs, people can still rely on independent serfing for money making, coming back to the lone wolf disorganized BS that we are playing right now. They wouldn't care much about the castle, wouldn't have an incentive to obey the lord, nor to protect serfs when they are the soldiers, etc.

Third, bandits have to have a chance to disrupt the flow of money to the castle chest. Right now, being a bandit in most maps is very hard and not lucrative at all. Except if you are an organized faction devoted to banditry, but those rarely happen since people join factions to spend gold in wars. My recommendations are:

- Some selling points for bandits : else, they will never be able to sell stolen goods in castles. This should not be closer to the resources than the castles, else serfs can just go there.

- A maze of routes to the castle: if you steal a cart in the ONLY road from the castle to the mine, how the hell are you going to escape from the faction knights? One should be able to take different routes to escape from the knights, forcing them to try to find the robber. This should include "secret" hiding spots over the map.

- Relatively good classes for bandits: At least an archer class.

Fourth, achieve a good balance in prices and put a limit to bank withdrawal. Do you have the impression that it is hard to find people grinding? It is, sinc epeople grind every now and then and then safe it in the bank. This money can last for ages. Now, grinding should maybe not take as long as in some servers (depending of distance of resources it can take a LONG time), but it should happen more often. This can be achieved via relatively high prices for gear and a bank withdrawal limit. This way one can ensure that people run out of gold.

This last point might seem harsh on the player, but in my experience there is no player that cares less about the lord, factions, wars, RP, robberies and interactions with the rest in general than the filthy rich player. Those players don't give a damn about death or anything else. Hence they sort of leave outside the game environment, which makes it very annoying.

 
Sambrosia said:
In case anyone is confused, the "tax" is not removed from the serf's income. If an export has a 100% tax on it, the serf gets his normal profit, and the castle earns the same amount for each item sold. If it has a 20% tax, the serf earns his normal profit, and the castle gets 20% of that amount. The castle's money is generated separately, so the serf doesn't lose any cash, but the castle earns some simply because the serf sold it there.

This needs to be changed immediately. The entire point of a tax is the redistribution of wealth from a lesser caste to a superior. Duplicating money is one of the reasons that this mod has a terrible economy.
 
KruniacZio said:
Duplicating money
Wrong: it can not be used to duplicate money, since exporting removes the item from the game world (exports it to an external unseen country); all other reversible transactions (buying, selling, stockpiling) are zero sum: the money that goes into the castle chest matches the reduced price when selling. You could think of it as exporting the resource for twice the price (or whatever): some of the money goes to the player, some to the castle chest.

If anyone actually finds ways to duplicate money or items, they are welcome to PM me or post to the bug reports thread.
 
Vornne said:
KruniacZio said:
Duplicating money
Wrong: it can not be used to duplicate money, since exporting removes the item from the game world (exports it to an external unseen country); all other reversible transactions (buying, selling, stockpiling) are zero sum: the money that goes into the castle chest matches the reduced price when selling. You could think of it as exporting the resource for twice the price (or whatever): some of the money goes to the player, some to the castle chest.

If anyone actually finds ways to duplicate money or items, they are welcome to PM me or post to the bug reports thread.

Wow. I wasn't talking about mechanically duplicating a fixed sum of money. I was talking about the simple economics of this mechanic.

A man sells a chicken worth 50 gold.

He gets 50 gold.

The lord gets 50 gold.

That is not a tax, that is simply bonus gold given to a castle chest. It's not actually coming from anywhere, it's just being materialized.
 
Really, you pick you stand here...

Think about it this way: the lord acquires this good for the price paid to the serf and then sells it to "invisible" merchants who will sell it in some distant market for a very large price. Those merchants pay the lord a good amount of gold for the good.

Using this mechanic trick is the only way I have been able to think of to provide some incentives for castle ownership and obedience to the lord.

To the rest of the people out there who claim otherwise, please sketch me your system.
 
KruniacZio said:
That is not a tax, that is simply bonus gold given to a castle chest. It's not actually coming from anywhere, it's just being materialized.
Exporting resources always pulls the money "from thin air" anyway, so it only changes from materialising the number you see in the info popup to x times that amount, diverting parts to different places. There is no substantial difference.

Generally speaking, all game economies pull money from nowhere as a result of certain player actions, to generate enough money to kick start the rest of the economic simulation. Even in the real world, governments print money to start things off.
 
I was thinking that maybe we could have a "import" props for most of the basics, like small and iron ore, leather, linen and wheat.

I say that because the low values ressources  (leather, linen , wheat ) are hardly harvested at all due to their low profits, even when the iron isn't abused on the map.
 
Aldric said:
I was thinking that maybe we could have a "import" props for most of the basics, like small and iron ore, leather, linen and wheat.

I say that because the low values ressources  (leather, linen , wheat ) are hardly harvested at all due to their low profits, even when the iron isn't abused on the map.

Hm, yeah that makes me question something about map design.

Was it your intention, Vornne, that iron mining be a somewhat rarer form of income rather than the go-to means of money making? Because there is really no reason to do anything else on most maps.

If wheat, wood, alcohol, etc. was much more convenient, and with a more fine balance between time spent and money earned compared to iron, would people do those things instead? Gold and silver would be virtually unheard of, but very lucrative if you take the time. Iron would be risky, but profitable.

I know I'm guilty of the over-focus on iron on my map. I'm interested to hear more ideas.
 
Sambrosia said:
Was it your intention, Vornne, that iron mining be a somewhat rarer form of income rather than the go-to means of money making? Because there is really no reason to do anything else on most maps.
Yes: it's something I've said over and over and over until basically giving up bothering about it. I should have kept links to all my previous lengthy explanations, because sorry, I don't feel like doing it again.

Edit:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5839962.html#msg5839962
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5915367.html#msg5915367
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5996947.html#msg5996947
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5998388.html#msg5998388
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5999260.html#msg5999260
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg5999616.html#msg5999616
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,167059.msg6437491.html#msg6437491
 
Vornne, maybe you could sketch here a suggestion for a viable economic design for a scene.

Maybe you have done it elsewhere; I haven't been able to find it. At least not a general overview, you have made comments about particular resources, such as iron or linnen.

The reason I ask for this is because you have hardcoded many aspects of the mod, yet I don't think anyone has a clue of how a PW economy should look like.

Scene makers (including myself, if I deserve it after participating in Borderlandsv1) have failed every single time at trying to generate a self sustained (no admins re stocking) economy.

In most maps resources rewards are completely biased to favor only some resources, crafting doesn't happen systematically, faction lords are poor and castles are not worth a darn penny.

Although it is true that you have allowed for a great deal of freedom for scene makers, part of the mod mechanics are hard coded. Could you please illuminate us with a sketch of a scene?

I would ask you for an actual scene, but I would be happy with just some general sketch.

Thanks!
 
Erk said:
I side with the no out of nowhere reward for capturing a castle. A castle should be interesting to the castle owner. It should be precious and worth dying for.

Offering a castle capture reward would only make it interesting for the capturing faction. Hence once you got the castle, why try to keep it? Furthermore, the incentive would be to let them capture to then recapture yourself. Clearly it doesn't work.

Some people have suggested castle chests that provide a stream of gold. Coming from nowhere, just an amount of gold every X minutes.

Although this is moving more in the right direction (castles should be precious to the owner), it is still problematic. It is completely detached from every other feature of the game. Surely no one wants to reward people for sitting in their castle with the doors locked.

Hence my suggestion goes in the line of the last one but introduces an element of dependency from the exterior to castle owners. Money will flow automatically to your chest IF you manage to have goods delivered to your castle.

Now you want to keep the castle AND encourage trade to it. This opens the possibility to far more interesting interactions. For instance, Lords have an interest in providing a "safe" economic environment, since bandits directly hurt their chests. Serfs naturally flow to protected environments (see the hated / loved neutral villages with soldier classes, like Burglen or some Glunmars), meaning that an organized powerful faction has an advantage over some random dudes roaming the map.

Creating this environment is not as easy as it seems, though.

First, one needs to make sure that serfs understand that they can sell goods ONLY inside castles.

Second, factions have to be the BEST way to make money. Else, not much has changed, just some people have looted a slightly more lucrative chest. However, if the chest is not the chicken of the golden eggs, people can still rely on independent serfing for money making, coming back to the lone wolf disorganized BS that we are playing right now. They wouldn't care much about the castle, wouldn't have an incentive to obey the lord, nor to protect serfs when they are the soldiers, etc.

Third, bandits have to have a chance to disrupt the flow of money to the castle chest. Right now, being a bandit in most maps is very hard and not lucrative at all. Except if you are an organized faction devoted to banditry, but those rarely happen since people join factions to spend gold in wars. My recommendations are:

- Some selling points for bandits : else, they will never be able to sell stolen goods in castles. This should not be closer to the resources than the castles, else serfs can just go there.

- A maze of routes to the castle: if you steal a cart in the ONLY road from the castle to the mine, how the hell are you going to escape from the faction knights? One should be able to take different routes to escape from the knights, forcing them to try to find the robber. This should include "secret" hiding spots over the map.

- Relatively good classes for bandits: At least an archer class.

Fourth, achieve a good balance in prices and put a limit to bank withdrawal. Do you have the impression that it is hard to find people grinding? It is, sinc epeople grind every now and then and then safe it in the bank. This money can last for ages. Now, grinding should maybe not take as long as in some servers (depending of distance of resources it can take a LONG time), but it should happen more often. This can be achieved via relatively high prices for gear and a bank withdrawal limit. This way one can ensure that people run out of gold.

This last point might seem harsh on the player, but in my experience there is no player that cares less about the lord, factions, wars, RP, robberies and interactions with the rest in general than the filthy rich player. Those players don't give a damn about death or anything else. Hence they sort of leave outside the game environment, which makes it very annoying.
I think you might have found the pot of gold in the end of the rainbow Erk, right now in PW it's not much that hold it together. PW is a bit stuck in the evolution of how we should play it but I really think you have find a part of the key to get it rolling.
When the serfs work for their money and at the same time giving The Lord passively a small part for the export of the resource to the invisible land far far away The Lord make some heavy cash.
But when he makes so much he also has to pay his men, if he decides to be a total ass hat and take all of the money for himself then he can't count on his soldiers to protect his land.
Still he makes a good amount of wealth like it should be with Lords and Kings, they organize things and keep their ppl safe from the dangerous things of the world so he should make a hell of a lot of cash not start of at 100k and reach 20k by the time he plays.

When he make this money and has that fancy shiny armor he can(if he pleases) host events, tournaments and similar, perhaps a feast or two?

I am a Roleplayer at heart yes, but still I think as it is now it does'nt really please anyone not fully anyways of how the environment with players robbing each other, slaughtering each other for some small money?
I don't think it should be like that.

So I support your idea Erk and good luck :smile:

Kindest Regards Jasper.
 
Your comment is very kind. However, I had a first attempt at this sort of design and didn't fully succeed. Thta is why I asked Vornne to give us a hand. As mappers / developpers, we work with the variables that he provides us.

I think that he has some type of scenes in mind when he decides on what variables we might change, its range of values and what features he plans for future releases.

However, we (players, scene makers, server owners) haven't been able to create a functional scene out of it. I think it is time for him to step in and show us what he has in mind.
 
He has a few times. Unfortunately he is relatively vague and still leaves most of the details up to the scene editor themselves.

I really think I have come up with a possible solution to what I'll call the "resource problem". Instead of using only stockpiles or only exports, utilization of a combination of both at each castle allows the lord the ultimate level of control. His stockpiles are limited to 100 units a piece, which pay more money directly to the serf and allow the very small number of crafters to do their work. Nearby, there is also an export station for the resources with a very high tax multiplier. The way I see it working is that the lord tells his serfs to either export or stockpile based on what the faction needs, equipment or money. Because of the huge tax multiplier, the exports create considerably more money than the stockpiles but most of it goes to the castle chest, not the serf. This gives the serfs a passive incentive to fill the stockpiles before using the export stations. If the lord is a good leader, though, he could pay his serfs to use the export stations generating much more cash for the faction.
 
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