In Defense Of The Class System

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Hans 77

Squire
WBWF&SVC
This is an unpopular opinion, and please understand I've been quite critical of Bannerlord's combat and functionality throughout the beta, but there's something I'd like to point out.

[This pertains primarily to Skirmish Mode, not so much for TDM, Captain, or Siege]

Ok, in Warband, in Battle Mode, weren't we already pigeon-holed into a certain meta -you could even say a class, for years and years? For example, if you're playing inf, you're pretty much forced to grab a nice shield, a fast sword/axe, some armor (usually in 20s), and a decent helmet (Nordic footman helmet, helmet w/ neckguard) if you want to have any impact in the match. Going archer? Nope, can't pick that bow, gotta go with something faster -oh and make sure you get one of your teammates to do a shield drop, or you're toast. In reality, there was very little leeway in how you could equip yourself for a match. Sure, someone could select javs one round, or bring an awlpike, or get a slightly better helmet, but the changes were, in totality, insignificant and minute.

Any deviation from this meta, examples being if you brought along a 2H or a equipped only a flimsy shield in favor of more armor, usually resulted in you immediately getting destroyed. Depending on how sweaty of a Battle server you were on, if you didn't tow the line and use the same meta loadout as everyone else on your team, you might be politely asked to leave.

In conclusion, I feel we've been using a class system for years -in Warband's Battle Mode; a largely uniform loadout throughout all the factions with little wiggle room for variability. In hindsight, it wasn't too different from what he have now in Skirmish. The biggest difference being only we currently lack some of the fancy drops (shield, morningstar, javs, awlpike) that were available to us in Warband.

Note: I think the lack of customization is felt more keenly in things like Siege and TDM. I do want the option of equipment customization to arrive at some point in the future, especially when we get hosted servers.
 

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Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&S
So you consider it fine that I can grab a bow and shoot without any accuracy penalty as dismounted cav? Or that everyone can just mount any stray horse and ride it as fast as the most expensive cav class?
 

Kringof

Recruit
But we HAD the chance to pick whatever we want, Also i have seen people trying to do weird ass tactics and some of them actually worked.You only stood on the competitive side of the item selection. What will happen about the fun part?
 

Riseaus

Recruit
So you consider it fine that I can grab a bow and shoot without any accuracy penalty as dismounted cav? Or that everyone can just mount any stray horse and ride it as fast as the most expensive cav class?

That's honestly a huge problem, each role in Warband felt unique and there was real class identity especially with hidden stats. But in Bannerlord, basically anyone can do anything.. It's just a matter of looting the right items/getting a horse..
 

Hans 77

Squire
WBWF&SVC
So you consider it fine that I can grab a bow and shoot without any accuracy penalty as dismounted cav?

Are you talking about drop-swaps? Yeah they're a little weird in Bannerlord.

Just last night my friends and I were in a match as Aserai, and the archers (playing as Veterans) and Mameluke (with bow perk) all dropped their bows and arrows for our inf to pick up. So in theory our archers became inf and inf became archers. We (inf) engaged the other team in melee initially, then we broke off. The other team thought we were pulling out, and once they turned their back we pulled out our bows and lit them up. We gave them the surprise of their life -and it was hilarious, but honestly it's also pretty unbalanced.

The fact that an infantry unit can pick up and shoot a bow, let alone with the same exact proficiency as an archer, is quite strange. I don't believe Taleworlds has set unique weapon proficiencies for all the different classes. Or even weapon use limitations for that matter. In Warband, different faction's classes had varying levels of power draw and power throw, thus making it impossible for say a Nord inf to pick up a Vaegir bow. This, along with varying proficiencies in 1H, 2H, Polearm, etc. made the classes of different factions stand out from each other.

Like I said in the preface of my original post, I think the devs still have a very long and difficult road ahead in regards to optimizing combat mechanics and general unit balancing (which includes weapon usage and varied weapon proficiency for all the classes). But the concept of a dogmatically adhered to, must have to compete, most efficient loadout -a class in and of itself pretty much, is nothing new from the days of Warband.
 

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Grandmaster Knight
WBWF&S
It appears there are weapon skill and attribute points - they just don't matter at all for any class. So the system as it is right now doesn't even work.
I prefer the warband system anyway. It's simply better for literally everything
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
I kind of agree, I don't think the class system actually changes that much in terms of meta and options, especially now there's 2 perks (previously there was just one). However the 'feel' of customisation is not there at all and that's what a lot of people who play the game a lot, but don't play it purely competitively, want.

Further, it doesn't even seem to have fixed the problems it set out to fix - I still see noobs on siege and TDM picking the peasant classes with no idea how to take better classes/perks. And in Skirmish the system now allows mega knights and inf from round 1 and multiple lives going forward, so it feels less well balanced, it feels like there's less counters, and less options than an imbalanced, buggy system from 10 years ago.
 

JimmyCakes

Regular
I would always go with whatever class I had the most fun with, I liked the challenge of going 2 handed and being more agile against shielded infantry. I've viewed Warband's combat as something you need to invest time into each weapon set to get good, you don't really have a chance to do this on Bannerlord it switches so randomly unless you're getting kills. Sometimes I like to play as a shielded infantry and protect people pushing rams and siege towers or protect my archers, that tactic doesn't get me kills to stay as that class, so after one death I'm back to an unshielded pitch fork or weak archer.

My tactic so far is go archer, get kills, then I'm able to have some freedom to enjoy classes I actually I want to play.
 

danEN

Knight
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
The class system was a nice implementation.

The problem lies with premade classes. You can look through all the classes in the armory, so why not let us customize them in the armory? And then proceed to take our own "premade" classes into battle.

I hope this is what they plan to do.
 

Sundeki

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
[This pertains primarily to Skirmish Mode, not so much for TDM, Captain, or Siege]
It's fair to say that the existing premade classes system works alright in Skirmish and Captain's mode. It's not fun, and is frustrating most of the time, but it isn't completely out of place mechanically like it is/will be in TDM, Siege, Duel, Battle, etc. Skirmish is less of a competitive mode than Battle is for optimized high level play, so when battle is released/modded, then most people, especially Warband vets, will stop taking Skirmish seriously. Sacrificing all of the other gamemodes with this system that downright doesn't work is poor design, and we have no other options. Which is where the problem lies for almost everyone complaining about it.

Ok, in Warband, in Battle Mode, weren't we already pigeon-holed into a certain meta -you could even say a class, for years and years?
Only in scrims/tournament matches, and only to a certain extent. I almost never felt like I couldn't get the items I needed to play at a high level in Warband. Now that's all I feel. Sometimes what my team needed was more throwing weapons, so I swapped the best sword for a mid-range sword (which was still a good weapon) and got an extra set of javelins. Now in Bannerlord I either can't get the extra javelins, or if I can it's only on very light infantry/skirmisher classes, and it's most often at the expense of a reasonable 1h weapon, and then I'm given a useless second perk slot I don't want to use. I can never play with the equipment loadout I want in Bannerlord. The "meta" as I saw it didn't actually exist in Warband. Every individual player had their own meta, and my equipment choices were often questioned/laughed at by others, but they still worked. Because that's how I felt like I should be playing for that round, and my practice/skill with an unusual weapon set often allowed me to excel with items that others considered to be non-optimal. Now it's all gone, and in order to make a small change in how you play/approach the game, the result usually between two polar opposite classes that never allow you to play the game you want to play. And that's assuming the faction you're playing has those options at all.

The biggest difference being only we currently lack some of the fancy drops (shield, morningstar, javs, awlpike) that were available to us in Warband.
Yes, another glaring flaw with the system: you can't get the equipment you need on some of the classes. Archers and 2H classes need shields. Especially with archery being as accurate as it is. There's a reason why item drops happened in the first place: a lot of the classes couldn't get optimized play without them. Now several of them can't even get balanced play without them, and now have 0 option to get around that by working out equipment purchases with your team.
 

Caps

Knight at Arms
WBWF&SNWVC
I kind of agree, I don't think the class system actually changes that much in terms of meta and options, especially now there's 2 perks (previously there was just one). However the 'feel' of customisation is not there at all and that's what a lot of people who play the game a lot, but don't play it purely competitively, want.

Further, it doesn't even seem to have fixed the problems it set out to fix - I still see noobs on siege and TDM picking the peasant classes with no idea how to take better classes/perks. And in Skirmish the system now allows mega knights and inf from round 1 and multiple lives going forward, so it feels less well balanced, it feels like there's less counters, and less options than an imbalanced, buggy system from 10 years ago.
the trash infantry options/peasants are just way too bad (expensive) or better options too cheap

Infantry was always forced to play the same, same for archers and cav in warband, you can swap classes now midgame aswell (without losing gold)

The only thing im kinda missing is iconic swords for each faction, which offered some diversity.

In Bannerlord they are hard to tell apart. In the end theres way more playstyle diversity between all the different infantry classes nowadays.
 
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Flash118

Recruit
i like the class and perk system so much more then the old customize nativ ****. maybe it need some balance but its way more better then in warband.
 

DeLaitre

Regular
WBWF&SNW
So you consider it fine that I can grab a bow and shoot without any accuracy penalty as dismounted cav? Or that everyone can just mount any stray horse and ride it as fast as the most expensive cav class?


I think that having a class system and having class equipment restriction are two separate conversations. I love the class system for competitive multiplayer, but agree there needs to be restrictions in place. a peasant archer should not be able to ride a heavy warhorse.
 

Flash118

Recruit
I think that having a class system and having class equipment restriction are two separate conversations. I love the class system for competitive multiplayer, but agree there needs to be restrictions in place. a peasant archer should not be able to ride a heavy warhorse.
+1
 
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