In 1.5.7 even with education system, the lvl 5 heir is still a bit weaker than lvl 1 start character, a discussion to change the situation.

How do you like the heir system be?

  • Heirs should be weaker than your first character like it is in 1.5.7

    Votes: 5 8.6%
  • Heirs should have the same total points with first character for balance

    Votes: 7 12.1%
  • Heirs should have random base stats/education effect for immersion and gameplay

    Votes: 29 50.0%
  • Heirs should be better than first character for better resources player could afford

    Votes: 17 29.3%

  • Total voters
    58

Currently viewing this thread:

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
NOTE:
The First option means your heir being weaker than your character for same level, that means your Heir being weaker than your lvl 1 character not your experienced character.

First, do not ignore the poll given, then forgive me for posting a feature about Beta at this channel, but I think such important feature should be discussed by as more people as possible. Yeah I said important as "character" is a core content for a RPG game like M&B.

So here back to the topic, corret me if I was wrong, but with my simple test I can see even with the education system, the next generation is still OBVIOUSLY weaker than your first character for total Attributes and Focus points FOR SAME LEVEL, this weaker means:
- Your next generation not only start with "base" stats, but also improve himself slower than your first character due to the loss of Attribute points
- Your next generation has less potential than your first character for the same reason——less total Attribute&Focus points

And let me say, as a player who is satisified by the overall improving of bannerlord, I dislike what the design is and highly urge a change to the condition, here are my personal suggestion:
1. Give next generation random "base" Attribute not just all started with 1, the amout of base points could be RNG so that there would be both better and weaker heirs, which is both playable and reasonable.
2. Ensure next generation have same Focus points with players, I think the difference should be made from Attributes instead of Focuses.
3. Further improve Education system, make options give random amout rewards so that there would be more possibility for your heirs, even born as the weakest one has the possibility to be the best one is also interesting and "realistic".

Please vote and reply if you have some thoughts about current heir system, thanks ahead!
 
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menuisier100

Recruit
Make sense your child isn't as strong as your experienced first hero. I think should be weak as a starting point but given better learning rates.

I still don't like current attribute system, they don't do anything but raise the maximum cap which you'll never really reach in a realistic manner of time. For how little impactful they are I don't get why they have to be so rare.

Rather they remove the attributes from the game or remake into doing actually doing something.
 

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
For people who voted heir should be weaker than your first character.....
You understand I mean it's the comparation between base Attribute&Focus point right?
I am comparing the heir with your first character's "start stats", the lvl 1 VS lvl1, and sadly atm it is your heir's lvl5 being weaker than your lvl1:lol:
 
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Apocal

Master Knight
Where is the "My heir should be better in every way" option?

Have you guys seen the stats on 18-25 year old nobles at game start? We're talking across the board hundreds in combat skills plus Stewardship, Riding, Athletics, Tactics, Leadership, etc. Give me that.
 

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
Where is the "My heir should be better in every way" option?

Have you guys seen the stats on 18-25 year old nobles at game start? We're talking across the board hundreds in combat skills plus Stewardship, Riding, Athletics, Tactics, Leadership, etc. Give me that.

Added the option :wink:
 

babelfisch

Sergeant at Arms
Generally your heir should be as good as your lvl 1 starting character.
But the system needs to be expanded in my opinion. At a certain age you should have the option to send him to various places or a tutor. So for example you could go to your king / brother / friendly lord, open the barter system and ask him to educate your child. It's likely he would get some of the traits of his tutor and improve his combat skills. There is also the option that he gets captured by an enemy party though. Or you send him to a governor as tutor where he becomes a better steward, etc.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
So for example you could go to your king / brother / friendly lord, open the barter system and ask him to educate your child. It's likely he would get some of the traits of his tutor and improve his combat skills.

👀
"Off to the Karakhergits, my boy!"
 

Qwezz

Sergeant
Where is the "My heir should be better in every way" option?

Have you guys seen the stats on 18-25 year old nobles at game start? We're talking across the board hundreds in combat skills plus Stewardship, Riding, Athletics, Tactics, Leadership, etc. Give me that.

I also agree with this, grinding out your first character is frustrating enough.It's only really fun at the start where your skills don't level at the pace of a snail, having to do it all over again in the middle of a campaign would be unbearable for me. Unless TW make major adjustments to the leveling system, which are long overdue anyways.
 

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
I also agree with this, grinding out your first character is frustrating enough.It's only really fun at the start where your skills don't level at the pace of a snail, having to do it all over again in the middle of a campaign would be unbearable for me. Unless TW make major adjustments to the leveling system, which are long overdue anyways.

For QoL I agree with this too, so my thought is even with random quality, there should be at least one heir better than your start character as a reward and encouragement for your insisting to the game.

The second character is fine being weak at the start as well, but it MUST has more potential and easier to raise than the first character(to be this it should have more total points), for game design wise.
 

vonbalt

Knight
WBNWVCM&B
Heirs should have the stats/skills of their own paths in life and when you assume their role you'll start with those stats and can mold the character how you see fit from there onwards like in crusader kings, this is the most balanced and immersive way to do it in my opinion.
 

Shun

Squire
WB
Generally your heir should be as good as your lvl 1 starting character.
But the system needs to be expanded in my opinion. At a certain age you should have the option to send him to various places or a tutor. So for example you could go to your king / brother / friendly lord, open the barter system and ask him to educate your child. It's likely he would get some of the traits of his tutor and improve his combat skills. There is also the option that he gets captured by an enemy party though. Or you send him to a governor as tutor where he becomes a better steward, etc.

Nice suggestion. Also mimics the quest where the player takes a young noble into the party until they get some experience. I like that.

On topic:

I would like a combination of option 3 and 4: make heirs have randomized attributes, but also give us options to invest into education.
 

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
Changed the title, it's not just a discussion thread for a feature, but also an advance warning for those haven't experienced the education system yet(considier it's not a early game feature), a report for serious balance/QoL issue about character development/clan system.
 
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Moton

Squire
Does it really need change? I think it's good or else you're gonna fet maxed heirs after some generations (if you play that much lol)
 

Lag'ier Barlida

Master Knight
M&BVCWB
Does it really need change? I think it's good or else you're gonna fet maxed heirs after some generations (if you play that much lol)

Comparing the possibility of this "exploit", the issue that your heir being too weak is obvious a true problem.

Let me compare you with your Heir:
both lvl1
first character: 18total attribute points
heir:15total attribute points

Each 4 level provides 1 attribute points, so technically speaking your heir is 12 levels weaker than your character.

Besides your heir started with lvl5 with no skills above 15, so it upgrades much harder than your first character, and of course hold much less potential.

So, really needn't a change?

Here goes the screenshots:
Zn7aVs.jpg
Zn7bG7.jpg

PS:
WAIT, the system has even more problem, it's bugged :facepalm: :facepalm:
Actually the heir has 10 free attribute points but no focuses, so it's not just sucks, it's straight bugged:facepalm::facepalm:
 
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AnandaShanti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
Heirs should absolutely have more potential then the first MC and have better starting skills. Further more there should be more specific control over what skills are learned to reflect a better education and lifestyle.

As it is they seem to possibly start with more attributes, but which ones is not fully controlled. The amount of skill they get from education is very stingy
and that's too bad because in Bannerlord skill/perks is actually the only thing that matters. Attributes are FP are just a UI number that do nothing for the character.

Does it really need change? I think it's good or else you're gonna fet maxed heirs after some generations (if you play that much lol)
That would be fine. Someday use a mod to change character stats and give yourself 10 or all attributes and full FP on every thing on a new char. It barely changes anything. Your leveling up so rapidly depreciates your skill growth that you're virtually indistinguishable from a normal char. Only in the hypothetical long long long game as a 70+ year old active character could you achieve a higher stats spread then what the game gives NPC lords.
Yes in theory more and more attributes makes a better char, but really it's such a little difference that it's not a balance consideration. After years and years you MC will pull ahead a little bit before they die.....

Where is the "My heir should be better in every way" option?

Have you guys seen the stats on 18-25 year old nobles at game start? We're talking across the board hundreds in combat skills plus Stewardship, Riding, Athletics, Tactics, Leadership, etc. Give me that.
Exactly

In short, I don't like using cheats, but if there's not a major change in the char development system I will end up using mods or character editing. As it is, it's the most unrewarding, boring, counterintuitive and unbalanced RPG char growing I've ever seen.
 

Askorti

Sergeant Knight at Arms
WB
Heirs should be far more capable than your first character was at game start. And I'm not even going to provide any in-universe reasons for this(even though I could come up with several). Can't be bothered. The reason for this, and I believe it is reason enough, is gameplay. It is just not fun to have to level up the skills again. Especially with the way levelling works right now, which is just plain awful.
 

Moton

Squire
Comparing the possibility of this "exploit", the issue that your heir being too weak is obvious a true problem.

Let me compare you with your Heir:
both lvl1
first character: 18total attribute points
heir:15total attribute points

Each 4 level provides 1 attribute points, so technically speaking your heir is 12 levels weaker than your character.

Besides your heir started with lvl5 with no skills above 15, so it upgrades much harder than your first character, and of course hold much less potential.

So, really needn't a change?

Here goes the screenshots:
Zn7aVs.jpg
Zn7bG7.jpg

PS:
WAIT, the system has even more problem, it's bugged :facepalm: :facepalm:
Actually the heir has 10 free attribute points but no focuses, so it's not just sucks, it's straight bugged:facepalm::facepalm:

Yeah maybe they shouldn't start weaker but about the same then? I haven't been playing singleplayer for half a year (maybe a hour here and there) and only multiplayer waiting for TW to flesh it out.

That would be fine. Someday use a mod to change character stats and give yourself 10 or all attributes and full FP on every thing on a new char. It barely changes anything. Your leveling up so rapidly depreciates your skill growth that you're virtually indistinguishable from a normal char. Only in the hypothetical long long long game as a 70+ year old active character could you achieve a higher stats spread then what the game gives NPC lords.
Yes in theory more and more attributes makes a better char, but really it's such a little difference that it's not a balance consideration. After years and years you MC will pull ahead a little bit before they die.....

Yeah maybe you guys are right. I dont really qualify to have an opinion as it is now since I haven't been playing singleplayer for maybe half a year, maybe a hour every now and then. Been mostly playing multiplayer waiting for singleplayer to be fleshed out.

I'm so used with having leveled upp and geared units from start I've forgotten the holy struggle that is leveling upp. Maybe I should humble myself and do another playthrough this weekend, is it a good time to try singleplayer again?
 
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