Improving Spears (so they can be fun)

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spears seem fine to me. what is missing?

1. not enough damage, especially vital strikes to head as mentioned. arrows do way more damage. the low damage makes little sense given that couched they do overkill damage either way.

2. ability to brace spears against charges.

3. ability to swing spears and use them as quarterstaves, not just poke with them.
 
I feel like balance should tipped for spears in battlefields and swords during the siege. with 0 space to move around on the ramparts and inside the towers swords would be much more useful. However, swords overpowering spears in open field combat is bizarre.
Yea, I think it was kinda cool in warband that I felt pushed to use short 1 handed weapons during sieges because my 2 handers simply werent effective in the big messy wall fights.
 
Spears as they are are very strong in hands of the player so they need to improve ai use of them not the spear it's self. As it is i do not carry any 1h weapons since pole arms is now 90 as i can do way more dps with spear and shield then 1h and shield including in sieges. Also not sure if this helps but max height seems to allow you to reach over the heads of your troops.
 
@pada wtf you mean not enough damage? just running at tier 5 infantry at 8m/s and hitting in head does 137 damage or more. One strike 1 kill not enough damage? With anti horse perk you basically one shot charging mounts.
 
I agree with the formation problem, it seems the AI isn't good enough right now.

But for duels, spears have great reach, if they make it any quicker they would become the queens of the battlefield.

This is when you say "yeah, that's the intention, spears were the queens of battlefields for millenia".

And this is when I say "balanced gameplay and different options to different playstyles is more important than going for total historic accuracy".
I don't know about that. I think they should be much quicker but fairly ineffective once closed upon... This would make shields very effective against them, but mean that it'd be very hard to close on a spear wielder without proper defenses. Right now I feel like I'm pushing this huge combersome rock everytime I do a stab with a spear...
It's not that I want the spear to be "the best weapon", its that I want the game to support a spear wielding power fantasy, just like to supports the sword and board power fantasy... The ideal spear wielder in my head(ignoring formatinos right now) is a nimble fighter dancing back and doing quick stabs ti keep his enemy at bay... That is simply not viable in the game.. All spears behave as you're wielding a great pike or something.

I mean I don't even like spears very much myself.. But I think that's because almost all media treat them as this trash tier weapon... I can't really think of any popular fantasy heroes using spears
 
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Okay so i have to ask, how are you building your guys? Once you hit athletics of 80-90 range, pole arm 90 your a nimble god on the battle field. Infantry AI are the only thing that makes spears bad, its not the spears them selves. And spear behaviors seems just fine depending on what spears your trying to use.

I use the Menavlion spear stats are as follows:
1.8 Wright
48 Swing
39 cut
87 thrust speed
42 thrust
length 150
handling 75

with any choice of shield and light armor to medium (medium once over 80 athletics)
 
I think spears could get a damage buff though, as already mentioned, even when landing hard hits to the head and neck, damage is about half of an arrow and at most one third of a good 2 hander slice.
Two handers pretty much one shot everyone.
 
Okay so i have to ask, how are you building your guys? Once you hit athletics of 80-90 range, pole arm 90 your a nimble god on the battle field. Infantry AI are the only thing that makes spears bad, its not the spears them selves. And spear behaviors seems just fine depending on what spears your trying to use.

I use the Menavlion spear stats are as follows:
1.8 Wright
48 Swing
39 cut
87 thrust speed
42 thrust
length 150
handling 75

with any choice of shield and light armor to medium (medium once over 80 athletics)

I haven't had the gmae open for a few days so I don't remember specifics... I think I'm roughly in your area of skills, if not a lil bit above. I don't remember the name of the weapon but it's a fairly short spear at the moment, but I've tried quite a few.

My main gripe is that the animations are so slow and clumsy, there's no purposeful quick jabs it's these overly dragged out shoving motions as if you're trying to push a great weight at the other end of the spear... Usually it's only at the very end of the animation that it actually speeds up to a thrust.. Meaning that because the motions take so long, you don't actually hit the point you're aiming at when you're launching the attack

Obviously all of the melee weapons are overly telegraphed but slashing weapons benefit from strike in an arc and therefore don't rely on the you being fast and accurate..Unlikely spears you also don't actively want to keeo your enemy at a distance so leaving an opening during your exaggerated back swing isn't as big a deal.
 
I am thinking its your choice of spear as my animation is decently quick.

Also do not forget you can forge your preferred spear which is what i am working on now.
 
Hail!

To get right to it, spears in the game as they are, are not viable on foot. Unless you are far more skilled at the game than your opponent, especially in multiplayer, they have little to no use aside from stopping the occasional horse charge. Im sure we are all aware of this.

So before I begin game wise, I would like to talk about the spear historically.

Look at near any time period in history and you will see the most prominent weapon used on the battlefield to be the spear, and not only because they were cheaper to make than swords, but also far more effective for a variety of situations. (Aside from self defense, especially within enclosed spaces.) Spear men could cover each others flanks, strike enemies not paying attention to them, and were more effective against a variety of armors when compared with swords. And when compared with one handed axes, they were longer and more versatile. However to be fair, spear men often carried BACK UP weapons, such as axes clubs or swords, for when the spear formation broke up and they were required to get stuck in.

This is not to say the spear was bad in one on one combat. This is far from the truth, especially when shields and heavy armor are not part of the equation, and/or the skill level of the opponents were similar. Wielding a spear two handed allows the wielder to deliver extremely quick and powerful thrusts, as its tiny point focuses the force of the blow very effectively, hence why it was so useful against a variety of armors and generally KILLED or WOUNDED with EASE. Many spears were also able to cut or bash, but lets stick with the basic pointed "stick" for now.

Closing in on a nimble spear user without a shield or heavy armor is near suicide, though skill levels do play a part and wielding a long sword or a great sword with the half sword grip allows for a more even playing field. (Look up Lindybiege, Schola Gladiatora, Skallagrim, Etc... on Youtube) A skilled spear user could also handle themselves quite well in close combat, though once stuffed the shorter weapons do have a distinct advantage, especially if both parties are equally skilled in the martial arts.

Anyways on to the game, as of right now spears are more useless in one on one combat than a dagger, if you are skilled with the combat system it could help a bit but even then, damage numbers for landing a blow with a spear EVEN on the HEAD are quite low. There is low reward for a currently high risk precision weapon, and once they get within one handed distance it becomes incredibly hard to do much of anything as distancing options are limited. Compared to a great sword, great axe, or swing able pole arm that can do 100 damage at the START of its chop/slash, this is sort of ridiculous. (I personally feel bad using a two handed axe, sword, or glaive just because of how easy it is to do vast amounts of damage even against the best of armors, which would be okay if it were required to pick up speed first... Though it CAN be fun to chop through a horde of rabble.)

I suggest spears get both a damage and speed buff. Plus I think they should, by virtue of the weapon itself, provide some sort of push back if a hit is landed or blocked (regardless of how close the opponent is), to make it harder to close the distance and spam the spear men to death. If not this then allow some moderate damage to be done from close range as well, though I believe the push back would be a more exciting option for the combat system and allow for a more historical feel.

I know balancing a game, especially one so ambitious, is very difficult. But I believe these changes could help make spears, which if I were to be honest are one of my favorite weapons (just look at my username) far more thrilling and fun to handle and fight against. Because to be honest, fighting spear users feels sad rather than exciting.

Oh, and I understand the game is early access. These are merely suggestions to make a personal favorite weapon usable in the game.
I agree with the fact that spears should receive a damage buff, but from my experiences in reenactment a spear who is alone is often at a disadvantage as a short hand with a shield generally beats the spear during a one on one situation since you lock the spear down with the shield and slice away with short arm.
 
Again are you guys actualy playing Bannerlords with spears? The ability to consistently 1 shot infantry, horses, with a spear that has base 42 damage is some how not enough damage? And i have not even gotten my crafting up to make a master crafted or legendary spear yet.
 
Maybe it has already been mentioned, I'd be surprised if it hasn't, but polearm already has a perk to push units back. Two, if I'm not mistaken.
 
The spear was a great weapon historically because it was generally used in closed rank shield formations with multiple ranks supporting from behind; I dont think you don't need to nerf other weapons or make the spear a super weapon to get this effect, just create formations that use spears better with maybe minor tweaks to the spears available. For example, lock down the shield wall so it is very tight in the front rank and equip with shorter, extremely agile (140ish length, handling 80ish, thrust speed 90ish) spears, while subsequent ranks have longer spears (185+ length, 200+ length for third rank, slower) to skewer closing units that get past first rank.
 
Yes current AI do not use spears right and really need help in that manner. If they used phalanx formation and used over head jabs as the second row then they would slaughter armies and cavalry.
 
I'm sure people will think this is stupid but I think spears should get buffed speed and pushback, but they would be able to break.

Also you can't just stick your spear onto your back, if you wanna switch weapons you have to drop it. That way they would be as good as they realistically were but they are not op because you will have to switch weapons once it breaks or the enemy gets too close, and you have to rely on your sidearm. This would also give sidearms a point for those who use menavlions, glaives, voulges etc.
 
I'm sure people will think this is stupid but I think spears should get buffed speed and pushback, but they would be able to break.

Also you can't just stick your spear onto your back, if you wanna switch weapons you have to drop it. That way they would be as good as they realistically were but they are not op because you will have to switch weapons once it breaks or the enemy gets too close, and you have to rely on your sidearm. This would also give sidearms a point for those who use menavlions, glaives, voulges etc.

+1

Stashing such long weapons on your back really does seem rather ridiculous.
 
I just want my spearmen to actually use spears in a shield wall, being able to thrust over the head of the front rank, support each others, etc..

We have that in Viking Conquest, then go backward to anti-cavalry-only spear in Bannerlord. That's quite disappointing.
 
We have that in Viking Conquest, then go backward to anti-cavalry-only spear in Bannerlord. That's quite disappointing.
Yeah, I loved the spear mechanics in Viking Conquest and I was expecting them to be even better in Bannerlord. What a shame. They got spears pretty much perfectly right in VC, but it seems I couldn't see that until I saw how flawed Bannerlord's spears were.
 
I've not played extensively with a spear yet (I'll be a dedicated spearman in my next game) but from using it in arenas it feels like they need more of a stun on successful hit. It is infuriating to finally find an opening and impale someone with a well timed thrust right under their shield only for them to grunt, keep advancing, and slap you in the face with their sword before you could draw the spear back to defend.

Realistically that man would be a dead man walking even if my thrust somehow didn't cripple him on the spot. You don't get a spear blade shoved in your gut and barely feel it.

I guess the game in general could use "wounded" mechanics and animations, but that seems like too big of a change. A longer stun when struck by a spear would do wonders.
 
I agree with the formation problem, it seems the AI isn't good enough right now.

But for duels, spears have great reach, if they make it any quicker they would become the queens of the battlefield.

This is when you say "yeah, that's the intention, spears were the queens of battlefields for millenia".

And this is when I say "balanced gameplay and different options to different playstyles is more important than going for total historic accuracy".


100%. The Reason history, and HEMA get brought up so often, is because the game is based in reality to a degree. Especially when people like the one guy above who knows nothing of combat go "Nope. Swords better 1v1 me bro" as the reason for the spear being awkward to use.

I agree the game should be balanced, and fun, and not just "spears over-powered cause real" but by that point. Short of horse back, spears are quite weak when compared to other weapons unless in the hands of a patient or skilled player.

Add in that (most) spears only have 2 directional attacks and it makes them even more cumbersome to use. a 1H Spear and shield, can have side directed attacks where the user tries to reach around with the spear. Yes even on the Shield side (though this leaves user heavily open to easy counter attack. More often than not, you could "poke" around the opponent with your weapon arm side to try to open up a better attack.

I think adding side-directional attacks would help bring spears on par, rather than a straight damage buff. Make them do less damage, since they would lack the power of proper thrusts, but would allow a spear user more options to try to open an opponent up 1v1. Since shields now directionally block now too, it would be a great addition. You would have to side-block with a shield in order to avoid these little jabs.

I don't think anyone saying spears needs a buff wants them to be OP. We just want a bit more utility, or usefulness to make it fun for us to use. Instead of the Top/Bottom Feint into Top/bottom attack.
 
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