I'm tired of peasants with pitchforks stopping my fully plated Knights charge

[Caps]

Well it's "mount" and blade.
But personally I just want something fair. Give infantry proper formation against cavalry. But a peasant stopping a horse with a wooden stick? Hell naw.

even if they stop them they cant kill them

 

[black_bulldog]

I am experimenting with this mod today:

Realistic Battle Mod

This mod makes combat more realistic. Armor and damage is reworked according to experimental data. Weapons attack faster. Units parry and block more. Projectile damage is based on kinetic energy, rang

www.nexusmods.com

I'm combining it with collisions AI to see if it rounds out some of these issues without just making damage-sponge-tank-cheesy elite units.

Haven't played it long enough to really review it, but it certainly makes armor more meaningful which reduces that kind of issue.

I'm really curious how good this mod is. Currently I'm running the mod to give troops 50 extra hit points so infantry can actually make it to archers with a chance of living and it helps but there is still an imbalance. I felt like the mod "armor does something" went too far. This on the other hand seems more organic to me, I may have to try it for myself.

 

[Puerkl8r]

idk why people just want steamroll heavy cav like in warband, the cav ai could use some improvements but thats about it (it should make them far more effective)

Problem isn't that Heavy Cav should be OP, but if you compare cave to other unit types, they are weaker. Check out Resonant's videos where he uses entire armies of different troop types to see how effective they are. The test's aren't super scientific or anything but it's clear that going full Ranged armies or full shielded infantry armies is effective and doable, but full cav is not. Maybe that means that ranged is too strong or infantry is too strong more than Cav is weak. Combine that with the fact that it is generally harder to get heavy cav AND more expensive considering you have to give them several horses to upgrade them. They just aren't worth it, almost like they purposefully made them harder to get AND weaker just to try and avoid Swadian Knight syndrome in this game, but they ended up being so much worse that they aren't worth it.

Right now, the way the game is balanced currently, it's way more efficient to drop your cav in favor of more ranged and shielded infantry.

I also think a reason people are not happy about it is that, let's be honest, a lot of people find cav fighting to be the most fun part of this game. Just look at how many people found the most enjoyable part of Warband was making an army of Swadian Knights.

 

[TomaSkTemplar]

as someone who worked sometimes whole days with pitchforks ... my favorite were with wide enough handle to accomodate my hand for proper grip. Another was that the handle was thick and strong enough so it did not bend, another ... usually old pitchforks 50+ years old were made of quality steel, so when you worked they didnt bend or break on the steel end.

What to say, with 1,7 m long handle, it was both heavy and stiff. It was heavy for others, but for me there was no better.

What youre forgetting, person on a horse is in the middle of a horse, a footman needs to take the horse that is comparably closer. A pitchfork for work isnt optimized for fighting, with proper usage can be very dangerous. Well made pitchforks arent a funny thing to face. you can use them to hold things and you can use it as a club. Not optimal but it is heavy enough. You can also throw the pitchforks and it is not pleasant on the receiving end. When you have enough space and some spares, pitchforks are a sturdy and dangerous weapon. If you cant use them effectively you can skewer people.

Next, favorite hussite weapon, two-handed agricultural flail. A bit of forging and ends.

 

[SmattlePattle]

as someone who worked sometimes whole days with pitchforks ... my favorite were with wide enough handle to accomodate my hand for proper grip. Another was that the handle was thick and strong enough so it did not bend, another ... usually old pitchforks 50+ years old were made of quality steel, so when you worked they didnt bend or break on the steel end.

As someone else that uses 3-tine hayforks, 4 tine digging forks, and 5 tine manure forks daily - I'm curious how well those ol' peasants made theirs. Ours are pretty sturdy. I would not want to ride a horse - or my truck into one - but then again, I also really wouldn't want to hold one steady while someone charges me.

 

[Gambles]

This, right here, is the fundamental flaw in almost every mod that is ever done. I can appreciate mods, and I'm not saying I don't, but 90%+ are more akin to cheat codes to allow a player to stack the deck in their favor with their preferred playstyle.

Not only is there too much romanticization of cavalry going on in general, but most attempts at realism don't actually make it very realistic since there are several things (like players being able to accurately fire a bow behind them on a horse at a trot out the gate) that give cavalry too much of an advantage in areas, yet these never seem to be addressed.

Performing "Parthian Shots" from a horse should be a feat after 50 or so points in riding and bow (need to take both halves to perform)

Being dismounted should cause a handful of blunt damage to the rider

Using longer weapons from horseback should come at a risk to the horse. Ever wonder why Cavalry weapons were mostly compact with the exception of lances and pole weapons designed to thrust?

Mods often only add to the "dominance" of the modders preferred method to approach the game, instead of doing what they claim to be doing and accurately balancing it

I'd love all this implemented but with a caveat that lower tier peasant / leavy / footmen being hit by a rear or side charge immediately break, at least temporarily to retreat. But I understands that's way beyond the ai in game, but it would be prettaaayyyy cool to break a line like that through panic with good tactics.

 

[Teslanbenz]

Because the farmers would break before the cavalry got to them...

For one, Shock cavalry would be carrying a far longer lance. For two, that is why heavy cavalry wore armor. You could try and stab one of the horses legs but you're getting run over by essentially what would feel like freight train.

You can "pretend" that it is realistic if you please; but the fact is, you're ignoring newtons 3rd law of motion. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Try driving your car head-on into a 18 wheeler. Sure you will do some major damage. But you're not going to stop it in its tracks. Hence, why the farmers broke line.

 

[Technech]

The problem in the game is that the momentum of the charging horse is magically lost when its poked with any stick.

 

[TrashMan]

Fourthly 99% of armors are vulnerable against piercing damage (pitchfork does that damage). No matter the armor charging horse and knight would be pierced by pitchfork (probably killing the bearer in the process). Even if horse would take all s damage himself knight in full armor would have a hard time going back on his feet after falling.

This is kind of realistic even if not all factors are included.

Bull****. A pitchfork would do squat against proper armor.

 

[High Solar]

The amount of high level tier units that die to looters in auto-resolve is too damn high.

 

[Nickname]

I don't think a peasant with pitchfork has any chance against armored cavalry.

Pitchfork is much shorter than lance. Should peasant brace it against the ground, he loses even so little reach. Charging knight is not a train, he can turn at any moment. And sure he will, instead of jumping straight on a pitchfork. Also, he doesn't need to go at full speed to deliver deadly thrust against unarmored target. While he himself has a shield and armor, very well protected.

As a peasant what can you do? Aiming at the rider is pointless, he is too well protected. Try to kill a horse? There's a little chance for it to happen. Even unarmored, horse has a massive rib cage and muscle around the heart and lungs, especially at the front. And pitchfork is not a pike, its likely to get stuck in bones instead of penetrating deep. The only chance a peasant has to mortally wound a horse is to break an artery. That would require some luck. But even that would not kill a horse instantly. I don't remember where I read it, medieval chronicles describe a case when horse was nearly gutted during battle, and rider didn't even notice it until the end of a battle. So a horse can endure some wounds.

Seems like the only thing a peasant can do, is to suicide trying to kill a horse, not guaranteed though. But he is guaranteed to die as a result of collision. More likely he will try to run away or find some sort of cover. In the open field he has no chance against cavalry man. Also, rider can simply dismount and kill peasant with a sword

 

[Vorgav]

Have you ever held a pitchfork? Because with a pitchfork you can stop a knight. In reality, a horse would not charge a man who holds a pitchfork or any spear kind of thing because they are not stupid, they're pretty much aware that charging into a pointy stick means death so they stop instead of charging.

However, you indeed can train your horse to do this but training a horse makes it more valuable and you can not risk your valuable mount in such a place. In game, you can charge into 20 looters as a single horsemen. In reality, if your horse is not properly trained, there's no way for him to charge and if it is trained, there is no way for you to led him to there because it is highly possible to get wounded in there. Cavalry in reality is very different than cavalry in movies or t.v shows. Cavalry charges always take place from weaker spot of infantry. If infantry hold their place and stay in line, cavalry can not defeat them.

So, in short, it is pretty normal for peasants to stop knights with pitchfork.

You are tottaly wrong, there is no such thing like training horses to run on pointy sticks. Ale War, heavy, battle, etc horses had their eyes covered from two reasons, first is to protect them, and second is to not let them see what is going on, knight was riding horse and not opposite.
And about pitchforks. Horses of the knights in this example heavy cavalry had also heavy armor, barding i bellieve it is called in english but im not sure. This type of armour was designed in such way to prevend stopping them, to destroy any poorly made pointy sticks that were aim at them. In reality, proper heavy cavalry could melt any infantry and only few would be stopped, as first row of HC would maeby be killed, but the impact of falling horses and their mass would anihilate infantry that tried to stop them, and then second row would ride just into unorganized mass of troops and end the job.

 

[Technech]

You are tottaly wrong, there is no such thing like training horses to run on pointy sticks. Ale War, heavy, battle, etc horses had their eyes covered from two reasons, first is to protect them, and second is to not let them see what is going on, knight was riding horse and not opposite.
And about pitchforks. Horses of the knights in this example heavy cavalry had also heavy armor, barding i bellieve it is called in english but im not sure. This type of armour was designed in such way to prevend stopping them, to destroy any poorly made pointy sticks that were aim at them. In reality, proper heavy cavalry could melt any infantry and only few would be stopped, as first row of HC would maeby be killed, but the impact of falling horses and their mass would anihilate infantry that tried to stop them, and then second row would ride just into unorganized mass of troops and end the job.

And then Infantry would follow close behind.

 

[ironiccookies]

Try stopping a 2000 pound car coming at you at 50 mph with a pitchfork. You will inflict damage but you'll also probably get run over. Now apply this to a well armored horse and you with little to no combat experience. Now imagine 50 well armored knights charging you and your looter friends.

 

[Technech]

Try stopping a 2000 pound car coming at you at 50 mph with a pitchfork. You will inflict damage but you'll also probably get run over. Now apply this to a well armored horse and you with little to no combat experience. Now imagine 50 well armored knights charging you and your looter friends.

And unlike the guy in the documentary above, you forgot your plot armor at home.

 

[xdj1nn]

Have you ever held a pitchfork? Because with a pitchfork you can stop a knight. In reality, a horse would not charge a man who holds a pitchfork or any spear kind of thing because they are not stupid, they're pretty much aware that charging into a pointy stick means death so they stop instead of charging.

However, you indeed can train your horse to do this but training a horse makes it more valuable and you can not risk your valuable mount in such a place. In game, you can charge into 20 looters as a single horsemen. In reality, if your horse is not properly trained, there's no way for him to charge and if it is trained, there is no way for you to led him to there because it is highly possible to get wounded in there. Cavalry in reality is very different than cavalry in movies or t.v shows. Cavalry charges always take place from weaker spot of infantry. If infantry hold their place and stay in line, cavalry can not defeat them.

So, in short, it is pretty normal for peasants to stop knights with pitchfork.

if we go there, for "rEaLiSmS", know two things: The game will become boring and really narrowed, the game will never be finished because it's too hard to achieve.

Going for "rEaLiSmS", the pitchfork would have to get stuck, multiple weapons should break during battles depending on force, arrows should be loaded on the right side of t he bow, all swords should be one-hand two-hand as long as they have room in the hilt or pommel to be held 2 handed, your PC would be arrested for impersonating a nobleman. lol

 

[bm01]

Going for "rEaLiSmS", the pitchfork would have to get stuck, multiple weapons should break during battles depending on force

I remember seeing some yet unfinished code about that, so it's something TalesWorld have (or had) in mind. Like something about axes getting stuck in shields, and units dropping their weapons. Yes, polearms should be able to break, and it wouldn't necessarily make the gameplay too complicated.

arrows should be loaded on the right side of t he bow

Ever tried to shoot with a longbow? I'm not even sure how you would hold the bow if you wanted to let the arrow rest on the right side, it just seems uncomfortable, you would have to twist or extend your left arm sooner.
The Yabusame do let the arrow rest on the right side though.

 

[ironiccookies]

Going for "rEaLiSmS", the pitchfork would have to get stuck, multiple weapons should break during battles depending on force, arrows should be loaded on the right side of t he bow, all swords should be one-hand two-hand as long as they have room in the hilt or pommel to be held 2 handed, your PC would be arrested for impersonating a nobleman. lol

Don't forget sword thrust against exposed holes in plate and chainmail armor because swinging will inflict 0 damage. And arrows can't penetrate steel plate. Nor chainmail.

 

[xdj1nn]

I remember seeing some yet unfinished code about that, so it's something TalesWorld have (or had) in mind. Like something about axes getting stuck in shields, and units dropping their weapons. Yes, polearms should be able to break, and it wouldn't necessarily make the gameplay too complicated.

well, back in Warband that would cause a ****-load of performance issues, probably why they've ditched it, at least for now.

Don't forget sword thrust against exposed holes in plate and chainmail armor because swinging will inflict 0 damage. And arrows can't penetrate steel plate. Nor chainmail.

True to that too, that's why I love 1257ad, it's the most "rEaLiStIcLy" balanced armor system I've seen in a Mod. It'd be cool here in Bannerlord, though Plate Armor does not exist, so it wouldn't be THAT noticeable, btw, leather armor offers less protection than leather, padded recruits would out-class higher tier armors hahaaha

 

[Nickname]

And arrows can't penetrate steel plate. Nor chainmail.

Agree that swinging swords against plate/chainmail should not inflict any damage. Well, may be some blunt damage. You still can break collarbone with a falchion through mail.

And arrows can't penetrate steel plate. Nor chainmail.

Breastplate for sure not, some thinner parts may be. But chainmail = easily, if we take 150 lbs bow or crossbow from close to middle distance.

What also annoys me about realism - there is no such thing as disabling wound. Looter with two arrows in his chest continues to fight as if nothing had happened.