I'm sorry but I finally give up, what the hell are TW doing? Nothing new in 3 weeks. Whoever is managing this team needs the boot.

[mlrtime11]

Nothing in this video says that they rebuilt it from scratch between 2013 and 2014.

Also this is absolutely not a WIP of a graphical engine. The fact that it runs well and you can even see things means that it's basically complete. A WIP of an engine might look something like this:

Spoiler

It's a showcase in-engine demonstration. Mostly because all development up to around 2012 was scrapped in favor of building this engine, which is in no way complete (it says Work In Progress in the top left corner), and in the description of the video, it says it's a new engine, and the average development time of an engine is around 3 years (This does vary, but usually by a margin of a year or 6 months.)

Most importantly, it was a showcase, and was revealed late 2014, giving them an approximate start of their engine production timeframe from early 2012 to late 2012, and reaching a stable condition at around September 2014 to allow for a demo to be made.

Now, this is of course just a approximated turn of production, since the production process has not officially been revealed, and is mostly developed by Reddit detectives, but it is a much better development plan than anything else presented.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

Mostly because all development up to around 2012 was scrapped in favor of building this engine,

This is the part I take issue with. I've not seen or heard any actual evidence of this, yet people keep repeating it as if they heard it from somewhere specific.

Also PR teams will put a big WORK IN PROGRESS on screenshots that are months or even weeks away from release. It doesn't really mean anything. It works as a hype tool because the WIP label makes people expect the visuals to get better.

 

[mlrtime11]

This is the part I take issue with. I've not seen or heard any actual evidence of this, yet people keep repeating it as if they heard it from somewhere specific.
Also PR teams will put a big WORK IN PROGRESS on screenshots that are months away from release. It doesn't really mean anything.

That makes sense, but it is again the most sensical of production timeframes, whereas others will suggest that the creation of a new engine in the middle of production was not the case, despite there being screenshots of character and building models still appearing comparatively similar as they did in Warband. Not to mention, the first devblog on Hair Artists showing screenshots of the same engine in use.

Mount & Blade II: Bannerlord first screenshots

Who would have thought? Exactly 1 year since the announcement, here they are. More on the (slow as hell) website. Looks pretty good!

www.neogaf.com

Mount&Blade II: Bannerlord Developer Blog 1 - Hairy Artists - TaleWorlds Entertainment

www.taleworlds.com

That Devblog was made in late 2013, and if anything, pushes back the timeframe of development for TW, unless the Engineers responsible for the new engine were working on it alongside the scrapped version of Bannerlord.

As stated, the reason this theory is largely believed is because it's the most likely and reasonable description of how development went.

 

[Dhamon]

Having to perform a 1-month-long code refactoring after 4 months into early access tells a lot about the lack of a clear developing roadmap.

Having an EA tag is not an excuse for this, especially it it comes with an AAA price. Quoting the Steam store page:

While the early access version is very much stable and playable, players can expect to run into some obscure bugs and other issues while playing that we intend to locate and fix before the full release.

A flaw in the code that requires 1-month-long code refactoring does not sound very stable.

That said, I'm happy that they are taking the time to fix whatever trashcode they wrote, rather than continue developing on unstable foundations. But if things continue like this, it seems to me that it will take 3-4 years before the game has some better playable value over Warband.

What disappoints me most is the lack of new features and innovations with respect to Warband. The game feels very shallow, with dialogues exactly lifted from Warband or shabby placeholder dialogue that shows how little effort they are putting into the game ("insert generic backstory").

I expected something more than Warband: better tactical layer in battles, better dialogue options, more immersive, reactive world. Better quests. Not to mention better AI.

What we got? A crafting minigame that has the depth of a mobile phone game. Same old boring quests, some new boring ones - when they do not break. Same stupid AI - except that now can grab ammo from the ground. Same blob fights.
Most of the RPG progression is broken - which for an RPG game, even in Early Access - is ludicrous.

The few new good gameplay elements (more companion options, caravans, ...?) do not offset the general lack of new features.

Hell, they did not even "get inspired" (read: copy successful elements) from great mods for Warband, like Prophesy of Pendor, or the Viking Conquest DLC.
There is not even seafaring in Bannerlord, nor it seems it will be ever introduced (leaving it for some DLC maybe?).
Ship battles in VC weren't the most fun and streamlined experience, but at least they were a fresh novelty from the base game.

Sure, hopefully all the bugs will be fixed and new content and mechanics will come, because - thank god - the game is in EA. But given the current state, surely not within the proposed 1 year.
And from the released "development plans" it does not look like any new content/gameplay mechanics will come.

I am not bashing the game for the sake of bashing it. I really do hope it will get improved in the future. I am just starting to lose hopes on how and when this will happen. The game has potential. Hopefully the developers will act on this, not just the modders.

In the meanwhile, I'll resort to play VC, which even with its 2000-and-late-graphics feels way more immersive and engaging.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

That makes sense, but it is again the most sensical of production timeframes, whereas others will suggest that the creation of a new engine in the middle of production was not the case, despite there being screenshots of character and building models still appearing comparatively similar as they did in Warband. Not to mention, the first devblog on Hair Artists showing screenshots of the same engine in use.

If the 3D art assets look like they could be from warband, that's because the assets themselves look like they're from warband (if that makes sense), not because the engine is based on warband's. There is a load of misinformation in the general public about what game engines are and how they work, and some of this is deliberate ("game engine" began as a PR term in the 90s). Somewhat counter-intuitively, it's basically impossible to know which engine something was made in based on appearance alone

I've spent the last 4 or so years making a strategy game in unreal engine, and I know it inside out at this point, but even if someone had a gun to my head I couldn't reliably differentiate an unreal game from a unity game or anything else. Similarly there is no reliable way you could tell just by looking at the screenshots whether it was made in warband or bannerlord. I'm willing to bet that if you had the same lighting settings as warband and just imported warband models into bannerlord, it would be almost impossible to tell the difference.

Engines are something that impact developers, not so much the end user.

 

[Lesbosisles]

There is not even seafaring in Bannerlord, nor it seems it will be ever introduced

Personally, I don't understand why do people want sea stuff back so much. I love VC for many things, especially for those history-based complicated quests with multiple choices and consequences, for places of interest on the map, for random events during the siege of the settlements etc. But the sea stuff was the most uncomfortable thing for me. Ships were impossibly expensive (makes sense, but still) travelling by sea made your army upset and debuffed your men 24/7 and moreover - you could only get your ship from the very point you left it. Leave the ship on the shore, get the quest like "Kill raiders", get a few days to complete it and spend these days travelling back to your ship.

 

[Dhamon]

Personally, I don't understand why do people want sea stuff back so much. I love VC for many things, especially for those history-based complicated quests with multiple choices and consequences, for places of interest on the map, for random events during the siege of the settlements etc. But the sea stuff was the most uncomfortable thing for me. Ships were impossibly expensive (makes sense, but still) travelling by sea made your army upset and debuffed your men 24/7 and moreover - you could only get your ship from the very point you left it. Leave the ship on the shore, get the quest like "Kill raiders", get a few days to complete it and spend these days travelling back to your ship.

Well, as I said, sea battles weren't the most streamlined thing, but they were a nice and different challenge, adding to the variety of things you could do. They could have expanded it and improved it a lot in BL, but no.

Also, in VC it added that piratey feeling. It is fun to change and decorate your ship, and hunt vikings/christians, capture their ships, do boarding manouvers, etc. Anyway, I agree that not anyone does like sea-stuff.

Thing is, BL really lacks immersion. Just an example, in VC you enter a town and you see farmers farming, kids playing around, workers doing their jobs, animals roaming. You return with an escaped slave and they start beating it in front of you ahah. You need to have the trust of the local lord in order to recruit from his villages, or bribe the local chief.
Still, interactions/reactions with people were limited, as in native warband.

Did they implement/improve this in BL? No, towns are just like in native warband, with random people aimlessly walking, not recognizing your status or the things you do. One potential improvement comes from the gang wars, but as it stands now it falls really short. Sure, you beat up some thugs in the street. Do you get some recognition from town people, lords, etc? Does it improve the economy of the town, by destroying their illegal market? No, that's just a -10 relation with the gang leader. For what?

This is just a very example, in this thread there are many more details by several people.


PS: In VC you can have multiple fleets, you leave the current on the shore and then return on walk to a port in which you have anchored ships.

 

[babelfisch]

If the 3D art assets look like they could be from warband, that's because the assets themselves look like they're from warband (if that makes sense), not because the engine is based on warband's. There is a load of misinformation in the general public about what game engines are and how they work, and some of this is deliberate ("game engine" began as a PR term in the 90s). Somewhat counter-intuitively, it's basically impossible to know which engine something was made in based on appearance alone

I've spent the last 4 or so years making a strategy game in unreal engine, and I know it inside out at this point, but even if someone had a gun to my head I couldn't reliably differentiate an unreal game from a unity game or anything else. Similarly there is no reliable way you could tell just by looking at the screenshots whether it was made in warband or bannerlord. I'm willing to bet that if you had the same lighting settings as warband and just imported warband models into bannerlord, it would be almost impossible to tell the difference.

Engines are something that impact developers, not so much the end user.

You are making some good points. Regarding the bolded part, what would happen if you import Bannerlord models into Warband though?

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

You'd get something a bit like this:

Spoiler

 

[babelfisch]

You'd get something a bit like this:

Spoiler

OK, I shut up.

 

[cyresdog]

I will never understand the people that defend game developers like this.
Are you doing the same in any other business? You pay for something, it is utterly broken and then be like "lol ya thats fine if you fix it" - "sure maybe idk we gonna redo the vast majority of it could take ages or weeks we honestly have 0 clue what we doin" - "lmao nice here have another 60bucks"

 

[babelfisch]

I will never understand the people that defend game developers like this.
Are you doing the same in any other business? You pay for something, it is utterly broken and then be like "lol ya thats fine if you fix it" - "sure maybe idk we gonna redo the vast majority of it could take ages or weeks we honestly have 0 clue what we doin" - "lmao nice here have another 60bucks"

It's not defending but pointing out nonsense. Like 'the game is utterly broken'. It clearly isn't. Also, nobody asked for another 60 bucks. ?‍

 

[Princess Mikoto]

I will never understand the people that defend game developers like this.
Are you doing the same in any other business? You pay for something, it is utterly broken and then be like "lol ya thats fine if you fix it" - "sure maybe idk we gonna redo the vast majority of it could take ages or weeks we honestly have 0 clue what we doin" - "lmao nice here have another 60bucks"

What you are writing is utter nonsense.

 

[StewVader]

Having to perform a 1-month-long code refactoring after 4 months into early access tells a lot about the lack of a clear developing roadmap.

Having an EA tag is not an excuse for this, especially it it comes with an AAA price. Quoting the Steam store page:


A flaw in the code that requires 1-month-long code refactoring does not sound very stable.

That said, I'm happy that they are taking the time to fix whatever trashcode they wrote, rather than continue developing on unstable foundations. But if things continue like this, it seems to me that it will take 3-4 years before the game has some better playable value over Warband.

What disappoints me most is the lack of new features and innovations with respect to Warband. The game feels very shallow, with dialogues exactly lifted from Warband or shabby placeholder dialogue that shows how little effort they are putting into the game ("insert generic backstory").

I expected something more than Warband: better tactical layer in battles, better dialogue options, more immersive, reactive world. Better quests. Not to mention better AI.

What we got? A crafting minigame that has the depth of a mobile phone game. Same old boring quests, some new boring ones - when they do not break. Same stupid AI - except that now can grab ammo from the ground. Same blob fights.
Most of the RPG progression is broken - which for an RPG game, even in Early Access - is ludicrous.

The few new good gameplay elements (more companion options, caravans, ...?) do not offset the general lack of new features.

Hell, they did not even "get inspired" (read: copy successful elements) from great mods for Warband, like Prophesy of Pendor, or the Viking Conquest DLC.
There is not even seafaring in Bannerlord, nor it seems it will be ever introduced (leaving it for some DLC maybe?).
Ship battles in VC weren't the most fun and streamlined experience, but at least they were a fresh novelty from the base game.

Sure, hopefully all the bugs will be fixed and new content and mechanics will come, because - thank god - the game is in EA. But given the current state, surely not within the proposed 1 year.
And from the released "development plans" it does not look like any new content/gameplay mechanics will come.

I am not bashing the game for the sake of bashing it. I really do hope it will get improved in the future. I am just starting to lose hopes on how and when this will happen. The game has potential. Hopefully the developers will act on this, not just the modders.

In the meanwhile, I'll resort to play VC, which even with its 2000-and-late-graphics feels way more immersive and engaging.

Well ****ing said. You nailed it - it plays like a mobile game with no immersion or depth. Its a massive disappointment no matter what the fanbois try to screech out.

 

[cyresdog]

It's not defending but pointing out nonsense. Like 'the game is utterly broken'. It clearly isn't. Also, nobody asked for another 60 bucks. ?‍

Self corrupting game files
Crashing servers
Game crashes
Broken perks
Non existant balancing
Missing features
Infinite loading screens
Stuck on conversation screen
Failing quests
Mentally challenged AI
Completely screwed up ingame economy
Items not purchaseable ingame
The list goes on and on. I cant think of something in Bannerlord rn that works the way it should.

 

[Darkercookie]

How do I get the sieges to play like on the Bannerlord home page? That looks pretty fun or is it only a multiplayer thing?

 

[Cquarto91]

How do I get the sieges to play like on the Bannerlord home page? That looks pretty fun or is it only a multiplayer thing?

Currently MP only for now.

 

[babelfisch]

Self corrupting game files
Crashing servers
Game crashes
Broken perks
Non existant balancing
Missing features
Infinite loading screens
Stuck on conversation screen
Failing quests
Mentally challenged AI
Completely screwed up ingame economy
Items not purchaseable ingame
The list goes on and on. I cant think of something in Bannerlord rn that works the way it should.

If you want to know the difference between utterly broken and unfinished, take a hammer, go to the next window and demolish it. That's utterly broken.
Take a screw driver, go to the next window and remove the handle. That's unfinished.
Both windows don't fulfill their purpose but they are clearly in a different state...

 

[Namakan]

If you want to know the difference between utterly broken and unfinished, take a hammer, go to the next window and demolish it. That's utterly broken.
Take a screw driver, go to the next window and remove the handle. That's unfinished.
Both windows don't fulfill their purpose but they are clearly in a different state...

Nice job. Now please explain how my window falling out of the frame regularly is unfinished and not broken.

 

[kreamy]

Having to perform a 1-month-long code refactoring after 4 months into early access tells a lot about the lack of a clear developing roadmap.

Having an EA tag is not an excuse for this, especially it it comes with an AAA price. Quoting the Steam store page:


A flaw in the code that requires 1-month-long code refactoring does not sound very stable.

That said, I'm happy that they are taking the time to fix whatever trashcode they wrote, rather than continue developing on unstable foundations. But if things continue like this, it seems to me that it will take 3-4 years before the game has some better playable value over Warband.

What disappoints me most is the lack of new features and innovations with respect to Warband. The game feels very shallow, with dialogues exactly lifted from Warband or shabby placeholder dialogue that shows how little effort they are putting into the game ("insert generic backstory").

I expected something more than Warband: better tactical layer in battles, better dialogue options, more immersive, reactive world. Better quests. Not to mention better AI.

What we got? A crafting minigame that has the depth of a mobile phone game. Same old boring quests, some new boring ones - when they do not break. Same stupid AI - except that now can grab ammo from the ground. Same blob fights.
Most of the RPG progression is broken - which for an RPG game, even in Early Access - is ludicrous.

The few new good gameplay elements (more companion options, caravans, ...?) do not offset the general lack of new features.

Hell, they did not even "get inspired" (read: copy successful elements) from great mods for Warband, like Prophesy of Pendor, or the Viking Conquest DLC.
There is not even seafaring in Bannerlord, nor it seems it will be ever introduced (leaving it for some DLC maybe?).
Ship battles in VC weren't the most fun and streamlined experience, but at least they were a fresh novelty from the base game.

Sure, hopefully all the bugs will be fixed and new content and mechanics will come, because - thank god - the game is in EA. But given the current state, surely not within the proposed 1 year.
And from the released "development plans" it does not look like any new content/gameplay mechanics will come.

I am not bashing the game for the sake of bashing it. I really do hope it will get improved in the future. I am just starting to lose hopes on how and when this will happen. The game has potential. Hopefully the developers will act on this, not just the modders.

In the meanwhile, I'll resort to play VC, which even with its 2000-and-late-graphics feels way more immersive and engaging.

+1

+2 on AAA price, shallowness, featureless. Very disappointed.