IG's departure from the ENL

[Corsair831]

隐藏

What's the problem if either of you looses?

Basicly, who cares?
Ever saw those world tournament football/soccer matches?
One year this team wins, one year the other team wins.

As long as a team is consistent in being at the top it is considered a good team.
And every few years there is this random team that wins instead of the favoured ones.
In the end it doesn't matter, because there will be a new league to try again, and again and yet again.
100 percent win rate is cool, but not needed to win nor needed to have fun.

It's complete bull**** to refuse to play a match because you don't have your top players around, and also complete bull**** to ragequit just because you are afraid to loose and would rather get an Autowin.


From my point of view, both IG and 22nd should step up their act.

I have three proposes to fix this, and one proposal that leaves things hanging in shame.

1) CaptainLust chooses a new date and time for a rematch. This match will be final and will be played unless the servers are down.
2) 22nd and IG have their Champion fight in a duel to decide the date of a new match
3) Duel for Auto-Win IG or Auto-Win 22nd
4) IG leaves the tournament.



The Duels could be either just 1 dueler of each clan, or something like 3 champions of both clans. (The latter to show a more accurate picture of each clan. Note it would mean a total of 3 duels that each play up to say... 7 and the one with the most Won duels wins.)
- Example:
1 duel of up to (example) 7 rounds between A <-> Z
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  B <-> Y
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  C <-> X

A wins from Z, B wins from Y and X wins from C
makes 2 - 1 and team 1 wins.

This is not about winning or losing; this is about the tournament rules and organisation.

Of course we care about winning and losing, but we are neither afraid of losing against the 22nd nor is the chance of losing the reason why we are leaving. We are leaving because we do not want to play in a league were the rules mean nothing and are treated like guidelines that are sometimes enforced and sometimes ignored.

look, gavin, we're not the olympic committee, we're a bunch of young men playing warband, a game we all love, to see which clan has the best teamwork and overall skill level. If someone starts glueing himself to the rulebook like a limpit, he's going to suck all of the fun out of the entire tournament. Lighten up a bit would ya please ?


edit: and no, modus, only lose makes sense, loose refers to things which have a scale of tightness, for example bolts and knots. and your mother's vagina.

 

[captain lust]

Although it pains me, I can't help but feel it's my duty to write a proper response. I still stand by my initial post but I hope this post offers some further explanation.

I suppose this can be seen as my side of the story.

The first thing I will say is that this is a total shock to me. Talks about this match were ongoing for weeks and finally an agreement was reached that IG would dictate the match rescheduling process. This was after IG stated they didn't want 22nd to "walk all over" themselves and the tournament/rules (as an explanation for them pursuing the default win). I stated in the chat, in no uncertain terms, that I wanted to avoid a default, if at all possible because they are arguably the biggest two teams in the game and in the interests of the league (and IG), I wanted them to fight. So, as a way of avoiding the 22nd "walking all over" them, since the 22nd had certainly been out of line and I'd had several totally unconstructive talks with 22nd reps, I made this proposal to IG. After allowing them some time to discuss this, I received a PM, from an IG rep, confirming that they had agreed to these terms. At that point, I informed the 22nd that was the case.

The PM stated this:

We agree to postpone the 22nd match on our conditions, i.e. at a date of our choosing. We plan to inform the 22nd of the date with sufficient time in advance (at least four days), once we have set the date. As we understand, we have until the end of the league to play the match, but we are not quite sure which date that would be, so a deadline for when the league is set to end would be appreciated.

Right, I thought. Thank goodness that's over.

The PM went on to say, what seemed to be on a different note (I figured it to be a separate request):

We also would like for this agreement to be made public, for three reasons:

"We also would like"... I didn't take much notice of it. To me, that indicated a side request, not a condition or demand. They gave 3 reasons. One seemed to be a continuation of their gripe with the 22nd. Another about preventing this from happening again and the third was to do with transparency. I didn't respond to the PM at that point but I had no desire to make the agreement public as I thought, contrary to their reasoning, that it would serve only to inflame. I'd like to note that "make the agreement public", to my mind, meant "make a thread". The agreement was no secret.

I think it was that day, or another day, I informed a senior IG member (Morii) of the deadline they requested. I concede that I should've responded to the PM at that point. I don't know why I didn't. Probably because I was sick of dealing with the whole affair but in my mind it had been laid to rest.

On Tuesday 23rd of August, having heard nothing about the rescheduling, I decided to send IG a PM to confirm the message had gotten through to them about the deadline and that everything was going ahead. I also responded to, what I thought was, their simple request to have a thread made, publicising this agreement. I explained that I didn't think it would be particularly constructive to "make it public" but I would look into the rules for the next cycle. Also informing them that, as promised, I was willing to make sure I was present on whatever night IG would select to play the match.

I then spoke to Morii again, on steam, I think. Who seemed strangely furious that I hadn't agreed to their "conditions". I explained, at that point, before this thread was made, that I had no idea they were to be regarded as "conditions". Nor did I believe that PM was any sort of ultimatum. Although, apparently I was mistaken.

The next thing I hear of it, this thread is made. It took me totally by surprise. Given that IG looked set to win the league, after just trouncing us (CoR) in a match, with the only competitor left being 22nd. For them to leave at this point felt like a kick in the teeth. After all the work this league has been, for them to knowingly ruin the top Division (and make no mistake, that is what this decision has done) is nothing short of a direct insult.

I did not see that PM as an ultimatum, however, if I had, my response would have been the same. Not the top team, not the bottom team, no team should have the attitude to issue an ultimatum.

So weighing all this up, my first response was : "**** off"

And I stand by it.



As for the "decision" itself (I use inverted commas because I saw this agreement as a way to avoid me having to make a decision) - As a player, I didn't want to have to make rulings like this. So I was very pleased when I thought an agreement had been reached.

Interestingly (perhaps) the same noncommittal unclear language that IG used when sending me their ultimatum, was also the reason I was reluctant to give them a default win.

Just to be clear, I couldn't have cared less that 22nd initially agreed to postpone the match for IG. That did not factor one bit into negotiations and was not at all relevant. 22nd were not entitled to a postpone because of it or anything like that.

On the night of the match, I was out. If I was present and contactable, at the time of the match... none of this would ever have happened and I'll explain why.

What happened, when IG and 22nd were due to play, as most of you will be aware, is that the 22nd didn't have 10 or more players. 10 minutes after the match had started (not the best time for discussions to begin), a steam discussion began. 22nd asked to postpone the match and gave the reason that they didn't have 10 players. IG seemed disappointed and a long interchange took place, whilst IG complained about the situation. Some negotiation took place about a future date but it was mostly lacking in substance.

IG didn't say: we don't care if you have 8 or 9, the rules say we should play on anyway.

IG didn't say: get to the server, we're playing the match now.

IG didn't say: if you don't get to the server, it's our default win.

IG also didn't say: ok we agree to postpone.

... or any words to that effect. Not any sort of actual response to an important decision they had to make at that time.

They remained totally noncommittal and made no effort to let the 22nd know where they stood, instead stringing them along in a discussion going nowhere. In doing this, IG seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too - they wanted to make an urgent and important decision over the course of a week or so. That's simply not on.

It is clear to me that they didn't want to fight an 8 or 9 man 22nd. They wanted to fight a 10 man full strength team. However, 22nd were not at full strength and there was nothing they could do about that. At that point, they either had to commit to saying "right, we'll play 10vs8" or "OK, we'll agree to play another day". Had they told 22nd they wanted to play 10vs8 and 22nd refused, I could understand them wanting the default win and would've granted it.

This issue has been the substance of my interchange with IG. Several PMs were sent back and forth. IG highlighted different areas trying to prove that infact they had been clear. None of it, in my view, was anything like what was necessary.

The steam chatlog is private currently and I'm happy for it to be posted, at the discretion of IG. I won't be posting it myself. I think a copy of it, in its raw form, will show the poor attitude of the 22nd, along with the indecisiveness of IG and make it clear why there is a big issue in my granting a default win, under these circumstances.

I understand that the rules do not explicitly say "you must state, in the moment, whether or not you want a default win" nor do I think it's necessary and obviously that wouldn't be possible in cases where the other team isn't even contactable. However, it is common sense that you must make it perfectly clear whether or not you want to play the match. Since IG failed to do that, I can only assume that like 22nd, under the circumstances, they did not want to play the match and therefore to grant them a default win would be completely ill fitting.

That is not treating the rule as a guideline but simply not using it where it is not appropriate.

The fact that IG went to the server and 22nd did not is a simple technicality and carries no weight. There is no suggestion that 22nd had less than 8 players and quite to the contrary, IG were trying to prove they had 10+.

Now, I go back to why this wouldn't have happened, had I been there. If it is not already obvious, I would have seen that IG were using such language and not being at all constructive and I would have been there to do it in their stead. This is a strong argument in favour of having referees and it's another thing I'll be looking at for the next cycle. I wasn't there, though and the IG reps lacked the conviction to do, or the intuition to see (or both) what was necessary at the time and 22nd don't deserve punishment for that. 22nd, like any other team would, wanted to try and play under the best possible circumstances. IG didn't have to allow them that but they had to be clear in their rejection of that request and they weren't.

This is my reasoning and this is why I shot down IG's request for a default win and sought, instead, for some way to get the match played. I was quite satisfied with the alternative agreement that I thought was made. Infact, I believed (and still believe) all parties were satisfied with the agreement made. For it to erupt again because I didn't want to make a thread about the agreement is absurd.



When other teams have left the tournament, I have allowed 2 or 3 days for them to change their mind. Sometimes things can happen in the heat of the moment and leaders do not consult with their members. Whether that has happened in this case, or not, I'll still allow 2 or 3 days before confirming their withdrawal. I hope they change their minds and decide they want to help the competitive scene of Warband progress.

Not everything has gone smoothly in this first ENL cycle. It is is the first of its kind in Warband and a massive step, I believe. I want the league to improve and grow, with each cycle, for the enjoyment of the community and to show that the competitive side of this game should be taken seriously, both to organisations like the ESL and to the developers.

I cannot comprehend why IG would feel it necessary to take such a destructive action and I urge them to reconsider.

Whilst I would be happy to see IG back in the league, I want to make it clear that if they do not rejoin, the league will still go on. I remain fully committed to the community and the competition. I recognise the value and importance in having the biggest and arguably the strongest clan involved but I refuse to bow out as a result of their actions. I hope that other teams feel the same and will continue playing in the league as well.



This post is just in case anyone didn't get all that from:

Basically, **** you.

 

[MadocComadrin]

隐藏

What's the problem if either of you looses?

Basicly, who cares?
Ever saw those world tournament football/soccer matches?
One year this team wins, one year the other team wins.

As long as a team is consistent in being at the top it is considered a good team.
And every few years there is this random team that wins instead of the favoured ones.
In the end it doesn't matter, because there will be a new league to try again, and again and yet again.
100 percent win rate is cool, but not needed to win nor needed to have fun.

It's complete bull**** to refuse to play a match because you don't have your top players around, and also complete bull**** to ragequit just because you are afraid to loose and would rather get an Autowin.


From my point of view, both IG and 22nd should step up their act.

I have three proposes to fix this, and one proposal that leaves things hanging in shame.

1) CaptainLust chooses a new date and time for a rematch. This match will be final and will be played unless the servers are down.
2) 22nd and IG have their Champion fight in a duel to decide the date of a new match
3) Duel for Auto-Win IG or Auto-Win 22nd
4) IG leaves the tournament.



The Duels could be either just 1 dueler of each clan, or something like 3 champions of both clans. (The latter to show a more accurate picture of each clan. Note it would mean a total of 3 duels that each play up to say... 7 and the one with the most Won duels wins.)
- Example:
1 duel of up to (example) 7 rounds between A <-> Z
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  B <-> Y
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  C <-> X

A wins from Z, B wins from Y and X wins from C
makes 2 - 1 and team 1 wins.

Those blue letters...they didn't spell anything. 

Also, from what I just read it seems that there was another match that was postponed before this issue, except with the sides switched?

 

[Goker]

Well, no. It was the same match. It was supposed to happen at Week 5, but I believe IG wanted to postpone it. 22nd accepted. They postponed it for 3 weeks. And at the postpone date, 22nd had unforeseeable issues, which caused all of this.

 

[Joy]

隐藏

look, gavin, we're not the olympic committee, we're a bunch of young men playing warband, a game we all love, to see which clan has the best teamwork and overall skill level. If someone starts glueing himself to the rulebook like a limpit, he's going to suck all of the fun out of the entire tournament. Lighten up a bit would ya please ?

I'm a 30 years old woman -not bunch of young man, and that "Why so serious? Screw the rules, let's have fun" approach is not acceptable for any official looking league.
I think this community isn't ready for such professional competitive organization...

In addition,
this extreme incapability of compliance with those simple but fundamental rules really started to make me sick...

 

[Larkraxm]

I smell fear. Sucks.

Please read this again:

As always, we welcome challenges from any clan which can muster sufficient numbers to fight against us.

And visit here:
http://guardofistiniar.org/challenge
http://forum.guardofistiniar.org/index.php?board=4.0



Wise words:

Perhaps, it would be best to avoid outright insults or trying to mock the other clan.

The leading team in ENL div A quits like this is just a big slap in the face of the competive community. This is stupid drama, something we don't need.

Quite the contrary. Before we begin, let's get a few definitions out of the way, so we're reading from the same page.

League
A group of sports clubs that play each other over a period for a championship

Championship
A contest for the position of champion in a sport, often involving a series of games or matches

Game
A form of play or sport, esp. a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck

Rules
One of a set of explicit or understood regulations or principles governing conduct within a particular activity or sphere

The league rules are explicit yet they were not applied; they were ignored. This is certainly not good for the competitive community of warband. It became clear during our discussions that the league rules would not be consistently applied. We attempted to compromise by offering to postone on the condition that the rule-issues be made public and open to discussion. This request was made for the health of the league. The ENL was something we were very willing to remain part of, provided we could be sure the rules would be fairly and consistently applied. I refer back to the OP as to why we left the ENL.

PFF, and you guys get all giddy when the US has drama. While the rules may be clear, isn't it the intent of a default win/loss to be a final option, not something you skip to right away, no matter how one side or another "acted" or "demanded."

While I do understand that being prepared only to have the other side not bring their share is frustrating, one or two bad experiences (especially with a clan such as the 22nd) should not be taken out against the entirety of the league or diplomacy in general.

There is neither an implicit suggestion nor explicit statement in the rules that concerns whether accepting a default win is the 'final option'. Nevertheless, the default win was our final option. Our first option was to speak with the 22nd reps and learn why their team had failed to show up, before attempting to reach a compromise. This option failed when 22nd's reps insisted they would not play the match and left discussions before we reached any agreement with them.

A wider issue has developed out of 22nds failure to show up to our match. Our decision to leave the league hinges on the failure of league rules to be consistently applied. If the rules are applied in some instances and not others, then this is not good for the league. Perhaps one small positive to emerge from our departure will be a revisit of the league rules and a more consistent application of them in future.

IG should make their own league! With blackjack! And hookers! In fact, forget the league!

We have no plans to form our own league. The ENL format is mostly sound, there are just massive problems with an inconsistent application of the rules and opportunity for these rules to be overridden.

We are leaving because we do not want to play in a league were the rules mean nothing and are treated like guidelines that are sometimes enforced and sometimes ignored.

They are not ignored. They're just overridden by another rule. Which you do not want to adhere to. That's why you're leaving.

This decision obviously goes against the rules of the tournament but can be made legitimate by one if the rules: "The event admins will have the final say. If a dispute does not fall in your favour or you are unhappy with a decision, you must accept it". This would then however mean that event admins can decide as they please and even contradict other tournament rules.

Well, the rule about being present at match-time was ignored. It was not apparent to us that the rule regarding event admins decisions could override all other rules. If it can, that essentially means that there are no rules, as the event admins can apply or override any rule arbitrarily and thereby render the rules meaningless.

But essentially, what you say can be interpreted as true. We do not want to adhere to a rule that effectively says we must accept a decision by the event admin, even if this decision goes against the other rules of the tournament.

 

[arsenic_vengeur]

22nd obviously wanted to face IG at full strength with their 10 fuoriclasse players.
This is imo not respecting the spirit of the League because to make the process flow by itself, teams should be able to field 10 players at least once a week, and not only each 3 full moons when their 10 best players are available. You need at least 15-18 very active players to make a clan.

Now IG has crushed CoR (at a date very unconvenient but we didnt care cause we respect the Warband community), and fear to lose AGAIN against 22nd. So they thought they would look smart if they leave the League now, unbeaten, so they could pretend they have won it. It is the gayiest move I ever seen in the Warband community.

My best hope is that IG comes back in the League and get their ass kicked again by 22nd.

Also i hope that next league will have less scheduling problems, and I bet it will work better thanks to the absence of holidays.

 

[ModusTollens]

bla

So essentially the whole thing became an issue because you interpreted the use of a subjunctive as necessarily non-conditional? Damn you, language.

edit: and no, modus, only lose makes sense, loose refers to things which have a scale of tightness.

Does that mean we aren't tight? 

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

Quit having ye' leagues and cups during the damnable summer breaks. Late autumn and winter are far superior for gaming...

 

[Hygat]

My puny Crpg mind can not comprehend this wall of text, neither have I anything at all to do this this thread, but I love drama

 

[Joy]

22nd obviously wanted to face IG at full strength with their 10 fuoriclasse players.
This is imo not respecting the spirit of the League because to make the process flow by itself, teams should be able to field 10 players at least once a week, and not only each 3 full moons when their 10 best players are available. You need at least 15-18 very active players to make a clan.

^^
Furthermore,
in any serious competitive sports league in the world, under any circumstances, not being present at the predetermined match hour and place with registered players without giving any notice or request of postpone a reasonable time before the match has nothing to do with sportsmanship and it results in a default win regardless of both team's opinions. It is not a debatable issue.
 
Imho, applying this worldwide accepted basic rule to this league would eliminate many potential problems and dramas beforehand.

Edit:
In addition, event admin should not have God powers above the rules. The admin may use his/her power of verdict in arbitrative issues but the rules cannot be arbitrative and open to debate during the league cycle, they should not be.
Otherwise it seriously damages reliability of the league and this organization just turns into "Lust's Native European League"...

 

[Robis]

I can understand Lust feelings, since he committed himself in all this league stuff, and I suppose it's not been easy to manage.
Anyway, the most interesting thing so far is that... if AB are going to win the next two matches they will have a real chance to access division A ..

隐藏

 

[Arch3r]

In addition, event admin should not have God powers above the rules. The admin may use his/her power of verdict in arbitrative issues but the rules cannot be arbitrative and open to debate during the league cycle, they should not be.
Otherwise it seriously damages reliability of the league and this organization just turns into "Lust's Native European League"...

I disagree. This match IG v 22nd decides who comes first in the top division. Also it's in the organizers best interest to have a fair and tense league, it's the entire reason someone would organize a tournament. This is "Lust's Native European League", he took all the time organizing it and it's a lot of time he put into it. Show some respect please before you type something that suggests he's unreliable.

 

[captain lust]

Edit:
In addition, event admin should not have God powers above the rules. The admin may use his/her power of verdict in arbitrative issues but the rules cannot be arbitrative and open to debate during the league cycle, they should not be.
Otherwise it seriously damages reliability of the league and this organization just turns into "Lust's Native European League"...

Let it be clear that I did not override the rules. I did not ignore the rules. I simply felt that the under the circumstances (i.e. IG not actually wanting to play the match, in light of 22nd's situation), the rules were not applicable.

The rule they referred to requires that one team wants to fight and another team doesn't or can't (has less than 8 players). I believe neither team wanted to fight, at that point. If IG post the steam chatlog, that will be made perfectly clear.

That was explained in my post.

 

[MadocComadrin]

Well, no. It was the same match. It was supposed to happen at Week 5, but I believe IG wanted to postpone it. 22nd accepted. They postponed it for 3 weeks. And at the postpone date, 22nd had unforeseeable issues, which caused all of this.

So IG already postponed, and now they want a default when the 22nd can't make it? Yeah...bull****. Lust, don't let them leave the League, kick them out.

 

[SCGavin]

隐藏

I stated in the chat, in no uncertain terms, that I wanted to avoid a default, if at all possible because they are arguably the biggest two teams in the game and in the interests of the league (and IG), I wanted them to fight. So, as a way of avoiding the 22nd "walking all over" them, since the 22nd had certainly been out of line and I'd had several totally unconstructive talks with 22nd reps, I made this proposal to IG. After allowing them some time to discuss this, I received a PM, from an IG rep, confirming that they had agreed to these terms. At that point, I informed the 22nd that was the case.

The PM stated this:

We agree to postpone the 22nd match on our conditions, i.e. at a date of our choosing. We plan to inform the 22nd of the date with sufficient time in advance (at least four days), once we have set the date. As we understand, we have until the end of the league to play the match, but we are not quite sure which date that would be, so a deadline for when the league is set to end would be appreciated.

Right, I thought. Thank goodness that's over.

The PM went on to say, what seemed to be on a different note (I figured it to be a separate request):

We also would like for this agreement to be made public, for three reasons:

"We also would like"... I didn't take much notice of it. To me, that indicated a side request, not a condition or demand. They gave 3 reasons. One seemed to be a continuation of their gripe with the 22nd. Another about preventing this from happening again and the third was to do with transparency. I didn't respond to the PM at that point but I had no desire to make the agreement public as I thought, contrary to their reasoning, that it would serve only to inflame. I'd like to note that "make the agreement public", to my mind, meant "make a thread". The agreement was no secret.

I think it was that day, or another day, I informed a senior IG member (Morii) of the deadline they requested. I concede that I should've responded to the PM at that point. I don't know why I didn't. Probably because I was sick of dealing with the whole affair but in my mind it had been laid to rest.

On Tuesday 23rd of August, having heard nothing about the rescheduling, I decided to send IG a PM to confirm the message had gotten through to them about the deadline and that everything was going ahead. I also responded to, what I thought was, their simple request to have a thread made, publicising this agreement. I explained that I didn't think it would be particularly constructive to "make it public" but I would look into the rules for the next cycle. Also informing them that, as promised, I was willing to make sure I was present on whatever night IG would select to play the match.

I then spoke to Morii again, on steam, I think. Who seemed strangely furious that I hadn't agreed to their "conditions". I explained, at that point, before this thread was made, that I had no idea they were to be regarded as "conditions". Nor did I believe that PM was any sort of ultimatum. Although, apparently I was mistaken.

As the full PM is not that long, I'll just quote the entire version:

We agree to postpone the 22nd match on our conditions, i.e. at a date of our choosing. We plan to inform the 22nd of the date with sufficient time in advance (at least four days), once we have set the date. As we understand, we have until the end of the league to play the match, but we are not quite sure which date that would be, so a deadline for when the league is set to end would be appreciated.

We also would like for this agreement to be made public, for three reasons:
1) The 22nd did break the rules and it would have been perfectly within our rights to take the default win. We decided upon this solution of our own free will and not due to any force by the 22nd. We also want the problem to be discussed among ENL participants and the 22nd's behaviour reprimanded. Incidents like this should not occur. Any clans who cannot adhere to the rules should be warned to follow them or be excluded from the tournament. This is not intended as punishment for the 22nd, but rather as a warning that we would expect every clan to receive when they break rules multiple times.
2) The problem seems to have occurred at least twice (RRush vs. AB), so bringing it to the attention of all participants would be beneficial.
3) Agreements and decisions like this should be published in order to keep the league transparent.

We hope that the announcement makes clear that per the tournament rules we were entitled to the default win, that the 22nd broke the rules, that such behaviour by the 22nd and other clans has to stop and that we came to an agreement with you to postponed the match for the sake of the tournament.

It seems that lust misunderstood our message, probably due to somewhat unclear formulating of ours. However we were not aware of this misunderstanding until after lust already informed the 22nd that we would postpone, which led to sadnhappy posting "Yes. This has been confirmed from lust himself. They will give a date with five day notice.". We were quite surprised, as we had expected the requested formal announcement and hence Morii asked lust what had happened to the conditions. Lusts response to our message that he then send us made clear that he would not agree to those conditions, or requests as he understood it. By then it was not really of importance if they were understood as requests or conditions, as lust had made clear that he would not realize them. As the 22nd had also been informed that we agreed to the proposal, clarifying with lust that those perceive requests were indeed conditions seemed pointless.

For us those conditions are important and as lust had informed us, they would not be met. He had also made quite clear that he would not give us the default win. As we were not prepared to fight the match unless those conditions were met or unless we got the default win, the consequent action for us is leaving the league.

The next thing I hear of it, this thread is made. It took me totally by surprise. Given that IG looked set to win the league, after just trouncing us (CoR) in a match, with the only competitor left being 22nd. For them to leave at this point felt like a kick in the teeth. After all the work this league has been, for them to knowingly ruin the top Division (and make no mistake, that is what this decision has done) is nothing short of a direct insult.

I did not see that PM as an ultimatum, however, if I had, my response would have been the same. Not the top team, not the bottom team, no team should have the attitude to issue an ultimatum.

So weighing all this up, my first response was : "**** off"

And I stand by it.

The message was no ultimatum. Our departure from the league was no threat we used to further our goals, but rather is a consequence of how this league is run. Hence the message was no ultimatum.

As for the "decision" itself (I use inverted commas because I saw this agreement as a way to avoid me having to make a decision) - As a player, I didn't want to have to make rulings like this. So I was very pleased when I thought an agreement had been reached.

Interestingly (perhaps) the same noncommittal unclear language that IG used when sending me their ultimatum, was also the reason I was reluctant to give them a default win.

Just to be clear, I couldn't have cared less that 22nd initially agreed to postpone the match for IG. That did not factor one bit into negotiations and was not at all relevant. 22nd were not entitled to a postpone because of it or anything like that.

On the night of the match, I was out. If I was present and contactable, at the time of the match... none of this would ever have happened and I'll explain why.

What happened, when IG and 22nd were due to play, as most of you will be aware, is that the 22nd didn't have 10 or more players. 10 minutes after the match had started (not the best time for discussions to begin), a steam discussion began. 22nd asked to postpone the match and gave the reason that they didn't have 10 players. IG seemed disappointed and a long interchange took place, whilst IG complained about the situation. Some negotiation took place about a future date but it was mostly lacking in substance.

IG didn't say: we don't care if you have 8 or 9, the rules say we should play on anyway.

IG didn't say: get to the server, we're playing the match now.

IG didn't say: if you don't get to the server, it's our default win.

IG also didn't say: ok we agree to postpone.

... or any words to that effect. Not any sort of actual response to an important decision they had to make at that time.

They remained totally noncommittal and made no effort to let the 22nd know where they stood, instead stringing them along in a discussion going nowhere. In doing this, IG seemed to want to have their cake and eat it too - they wanted to make an urgent and important decision over the course of a week or so. That's simply not on.

We were quite clear in the chat, as I argued to you before and will copy&paste here:

It has been made quite clear that the discussions started 10 minutes after the arranged match time. Let me quote the conveniently omitted part of the same rule you quoted:

Teams should allow 15 minutes, after the scheduled match time, for players to arrive, before any of these rulings are put into practice.

Had you actually told them you wanted to play the match, there and then, they would've had all of 5 minutes to drag 8 or so players onto the server. By immediately entering into negotiations about when another match could be played, don't you see why they might have held off on joining the server?

We did not enter negotiations; we entered a discussion to determine why they weren't on the server.

This is the fundamental problem. You never said no, to their request.

Unless you can show me some other, new reason why you should be awarded the default win, it's not going to happen.

We do not need to say no to their request; we need to say yes:

• We agreed on a date and time for the match
• By mutually agreeing to play then, this agreement is effective
• They do not show up at the agreed time with sufficient numbers and request the match to be postponed
• Unless we mutually agree to postpone, the most recent agreement is effective
• This most recent agreement was that we play at that date and time
• We did not agree to postpone; our reluctance or even refusal is apparent in the conversation and Plazek's replies
• Hence the match is still taking place at that date and time
• We do have no responsibility to educate the 22nd about the consequences of that agreement and the rules
• The 22nd left before an agreement to postpone was reached and therefore the match was not postponed
• If the game is not postponed it takes place
• There were ten IG players on the server fifteen minutes after the game started; but not eight 22nd players
• The rule that Lugh quoted therefore means that we win by default

They requested that we postpone and we made clear that we were reluctant. The parts in italic are posts from our representatives, although only Lugh is an official one. Parts in bold are sections I believe are important. These chat logs make clear, that we were reluctant and that we did not agree to postpone.

Plazek: so
Plazek: we dont have enough players this evening
Plazek: if we have enough tomorrow
Plazek: we wanna postpone it till then <-- Plazek asking to postpone
Lugh: we likely won't have enough players to play tomorrow <-- Lugh not instantly rejecting the request, but neither accepting it
Plazek: and we dont today
sadnhappy: next weekend then? there's no rush.
Plazek: so maybe a different day will do
sadnhappy: since there's two week break in Div A
Wezyk entered chat.
Lugh: on 23rd July we offered you (22nd) a match either 30th or 31st <-- Lugh reminding them that we offered them two dates and they chose this particular one
Plazek: a couple weeks ago
Plazek: because you could not make the match at the scheduled time
Lugh: you chose the 30th, we made steps to prepare  <-- Lugh reminding them that we offered them two dates and they chose this particular one; No. 2
Plazek: we agreed to wait weeks
Plazek: for you
Plazek: are you now saying <-- Plazek asking if that means we do not agree to postponing
Lugh: we didn't agree a match with you in the first place
Plazek: it is anissue for you to wait a few days for yus? <-- Plazek asking if that means we do not agree to postponing; No. 2
Lugh: its an issue to cancel an organised match <-- Lugh confirming that it is an issue; essentially that we do not agree to postpone (at that time during the discussion in any case)
Lugh: yes
Lugh: we've got absentees over the coming days
Plazek: do you not think this is somewhat unaccomodating <-- (et seq) Plazek obviously understands that we have not agreed to postponing the match, as he reminds us of the earlier postponing of the deadline). Lugh then argues that the situation was different.
Plazek: i could have said
Plazek: no
Plazek: we wna tthe match
Plazek: at the scheduled time
Plazek: and screwed you
Plazek: but i was nice
Lugh: we didn't schedule a time with you
Plazek: and decided to wait
Lugh: there was a deadline and you agreed to play the match after the deadline
Plazek: yes
Plazek: at your request
Lugh: we never arranged an actual date for the match
Plazek: as a favour to IG
Plazek: we did not arrange a match
Plazek: until now
Plazek: as a favour
Plazek: to you
Plazek: because i thought
Plazek: you would be willing to return the faovur --> Plazek thought we would return the favour; by mentioning this it becomes apparent that he assumes we do not agree to postpone.
Plazek: as IG and 22nd have always had good relations
Lugh: in fairness, we didn't cancel on the day
Plazek: i think it is extremely unsporting
Plazek: that now
Plazek: we have a problem
Plazek: when we were accomodating with yours
Plazek: that you will nto accomodate us --> Now he obviously is aware that we did not agree to postpone.
Plazek: especially when ther eis a break in the league
Plazek: and it is not urgent that we play today
Lugh: can you not understand how difficult and irritating it is to have an opponent cancel a match ten minutes AFTER we were due to play?
Lugh: wouldn't it have been easier to send a message yesterday, or a few days ago, if you doubted your numbers
Plazek: we did not know
Plazek: that one of our player sinternet would suddenly have massive problems
Plazek: an a coupel tohers would go AWOL
illvminati: Guys, the thing is... we all took time off, cancelled what we were doing to make space for this match as agreed; and to cancel it 10minutes in to the match time is not very good.
Plazek: do you not understand how irritating it is
Plazek: to do a clan a favour
Plazek: and have them refuse to be so favourable back --> If we did not return the favour, i.e. agree to postpone, that means the match is still on.
Plazek: i have never been anything but accomodating to you uys
Plazek: and i am sorry
Plazek: that we do not have the players
Plazek: but i cannot just magic players into appearing from nowehre
Lugh: how many do you have? --> Lugh asking for their number of players, if there was no interest in playing that day this question would be pointless
Plazek: about 8 i think --> They had 8, hence enough to play.
Plazek: but that is scraping the barrel
Plazek: but this is not the point
Plazek: to be frank
Plazek: i am quite dissapointed
Plazek: that so far
Plazek: after we wait for you for 2 weeks
Plazek: that this is such an issue
Plazek: i am sure you are dissapointed too
illvminati: I dont know about the preparations for this match since I'm not as active as i used to be in the forums, however a lot of us made the time to come to this match... we scheduled it. For example, I could have made other plans tonight but I didnt since this was the plan as agreed between IG & the 22nd. The same goes with most others, we scheduled this event in, making time for it, and its rather irritating to cancel it 10 minutes or so in to the match time.
Plazek: this is a sucky situation for us all
illvminati: Dont you have other players?
Plazek: yea
Plazek: and all of us here
Plazek: made plans to be here too
illvminati: Many of our good players are also away
Plazek: the people who do not show
Plazek: screw us
Plazek: just as equally a syou
sadnhappy: I'm quite sure we're on the same boat as you guys are on that matter
Lugh: sure, you are, but the behaviour and reliability of your members
Plazek: and what of yours
Lugh: is your responsibility
illvminati: I understand how you feel, but this is 22nd internal stuff... you should deal with them.
sadnhappy: still it's missing the point
Plazek: whall went on holiday mid league
Plazek: if were going to start poitning fingers
Plazek: (an unhealthy thing for all of us)
sadnhappy: we could have said "no, we have the match before the original deadline" when you didn't have enough players.
Lugh: we acted in a responsible manner by requesting a delay to the match in ADVANCE of the deadline
Plazek: so?
Plazek: we are are irresponsible now
Lugh: its quite irresponsible to request the match be rescheduled after all the planning that we (both clans) have done
sadnhappy: still besides the point
Plazek: because i cannot see the future
Plazek: and predict
Plazek: and warn you
Plazek: before i know it myself
Plazek: that we have 2 players awol
Plazek: and one with broken internet
sadnhappy: not the first time a match gets cancelled. we had several cancellations with REF and RN in this league
Plazek: how is this
Plazek: anything to do with responsibility
Plazek: it is just bad luck
Lugh: and what would have happened if they dropped in the match?
sadnhappy: ie. they cancelled it just before the match was supposed to start and so on
Lugh: you have no substitutes?
Plazek: not today
sadnhappy: we don't.
Plazek: summer is a busy time
Lugh: for us all
Plazek: i think it would be much better for all of us
Plazek: if we just accept
Plazek: this is a **** situation
Plazek: for you
Plazek: for us
Plazek: and unfortunately
Plazek: we have to re schedule
Plazek: and stay on good terms with one another
Lugh: you appear to have 11 members of TS, 10 of which are on your roster
Lugh: on TS*
sadnhappy: coffee is not part
sadnhappy: neither is Nike
Lugh: nike is not Nico?
sadnhappy: no
Plazek: no
sadnhappy: Nike is a new player
sadnhappy: who isn't eligible
sadnhappy: and hasn't been added
Plazek: wtf is this spying **** anyway
sadnhappy: I am disappoint
Plazek: the match is niot happening today
Plazek: we are not playing today --> Plazek stating that they wont play; we still haven't agreed to postpone and hence the match is still on that day.
Plazek: i am not impressed by your lack of accodation
Plazek: and even less improssed by your fail spying
Lugh: look, you did not give us any notice
Plazek: look
Plazek: we waited weeks for you
Plazek: as a fasvouvr
sadnhappy: we gave you three weeks
Lugh: the match should have already started
Plazek: when we could have demanded to play it before
Lugh: yes and we gave you notice, in advance
Plazek: when all your officers wer eon holiday
Lugh: you cancel when the match was due to start
Plazek: yes
sadnhappy: how would have you felt if we insisted that we played on the week it was supposed to play
Lugh: in fact, after the match was due to start
Plazek: and you only got the delay
sadnhappy: and got a default win?
Plazek: becaus ei am a nice guy
sadnhappy: since you didn't have enough players.
sadnhappy: we could have done that but we didn't. so-
Plazek: and now you try to take advantage of us
Plazek: amnd spy on us
Lugh: quite the contrary, you're taking advantage by requesting we postpone the match AFTER it was due to start
Plazek: what
Plazek: we are trying to take advatnage of the fact
Lugh: had you given even a days notice, this wouldn't have been an issue
Plazek: that we do nto have the players of rth emaytch
Plazek: by requesting
Plazek: that we play when we have a full tema
Plazek: shocking
Plazek: and i already pointed out
Plazek: i am no psychic
Plazek: how am i meant to know
Plazek: our players would be AWOL
Plazek: i did not know until this afternoon
Plazek: so please
Plazek: explain to me right now
Plazek: how exactly i am meant to warn you in advance of this?
Lugh: the match started in the evening
Lugh: or should have started
Plazek: as far as i see looking outside my window
Plazek: it is afternoon now
sadnhappy: the match should have started way before Deadline of 18/07/2011
Lugh: but anyway - if you only had 10 members signing up, wouldn't it have made sense to request a new date IN ADVANCE of the match
Plazek: no
Plazek: because we wnated to play at the agreed time
Lugh: no?
Plazek: and we believed we had 10 players
Plazek: which is neough
Lugh: but that's just reckless
Plazek: sorry
Plazek: but we intended to honour our agreed time
Plazek: till  became apparant we could not
Lugh: its easy to lose one or two players to problems, you should anticipate something like this happening
Plazek: quit your finger pointing
Lugh: either ensure you have more than 10 signed up or reschedule IN ADVANCE
Plazek: you can tell us how to run th 22nd
Plazek: when we get to tell you how to run IG
sadnhappy: making a mountain over a molehill or how did Lust say it
Plazek: thats the one sad
sadnhappy: anyways, I'm going, cya.
sadnhappy left chat. --> sadnhappy leaving before any agreement was reached, i.e. we did not agree to postpone, i.e. the match is still on.
Plazek: so
Plazek: you said tomorrow is not a good day
Plazek: maybe next weekend?
Lugh: trying to look at this from another perspective - if we requested a rematch and you have sufficient numbers (like we do, today)
Plazek: we would say
Plazek: ok
Plazek: that sucks
Plazek: but
Plazek: when can we do it?
Lugh: but you didn't agree to that with RN?
Plazek: like we did with our other matches
illvminati: I have nothing against the 22nd and i like you guys since we've been around since Beta... so all this crap aside, lets be honest, dont you think you could have scheduled more than 10? I mean, even if our best players are away (which often happens) we continue with whomever we have, regardless
illvminati: we left our day feee for this, it's saturday night...
Lugh: From what I gather, you forced RN to play even though there were internet problems in Turkey?
Plazek: they had already delayed us several times
Plazek: and agreed on severla dates
Plazek: all of which became unavailable late
Plazek: as opposed to
illvminati: and i'm al little bit pissed that you scheduled a day with the likely hood that you may not meet the date/time
Plazek: one single date falling through
illvminati: with only 10 players... what if someone lost connection?
Plazek: we would deal with it
Plazek: but this is all besides the point
Lugh: no, that is the point
Plazek: we dont have the players
Plazek: no
Plazek: it isnt
Plazek: for us
Plazek: if we have 10 players we would play
Plazek: anyway
Plazek: i gotta go
Wezyk: Will you have 10 tomorrow?
Plazek: my uncle just arrived from scotland and i have to go say hi
Plazek: maybe
Plazek: but just 10 mins ago
Plazek: you said tomorrow would not work
Plazek: we could have spent the last 30 mins agreeing on a new date
Plazek: but now i must go
Plazek: we can sort this out later
Plazek: or tomorrow
Plazek: if i am not here
Plazek: speask to sad
Plazek: please pass on my apologies to all member sof the team
Plazek: who wer emeant to play for you today
illvminati: i made a damn strong coffee for this
Plazek: but good evening
illvminati:
Lugh: g'bye
Plazek: i must greet my family
Plazek left chat.  --> Plazek leaving before any agreement was reached, i.e. we did not agree to postpone, i.e. the match is still on.
illvminati: greeting his family... its 50minutes in to the match

These are subjective interpretations. Objectively, the rule is clearly formulated and their absence is likewise clear (as Lugh has shown). While we did not explicitly say that we wanted to play now, implicitly it became clear, as we did not agree to postpone. Furthermore, it does not matter, as instantly and explicitly refusing a request to postpone is not required by the rules.

To expand on this:

Whether the 22nd would have wanted to play if we had explicitly informed them of the rules, which should be known to them as "Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse." (League Rules), is of no relevance. It is their responsibility to know that refusing to play the match and that leaving the talks before any conclusion or agreement was reached, will mean that IG has the option to choose a default win. As one of our members put it: "did they refuse to fight at match time? YES. did we accept to postpone? NO. Did the 22nd then just leave the talks? YES."

The appropriate rule states quite clearly that "If however, a team cannot make 8 players or more, the other team will be offered a default win, provided they have shown up with at least 10 players. [...] Teams should allow 15 minutes, after the scheduled match time, for players to arrive, before any of these rulings are put into practice.", in short: if a team cannot make 8 players or more until 15 minutes after the supposed start of the match, the other team is offered a default win, provided they had 10 players. So:

IG - 10 players 15 minutes after match-begin = check
22nd - 8 players 15 minutes after match-begin = nope
-------------------------------------------------------------
Hence: IG is offered the default win

That is what the rule amounts to. Any further requirements like the necessity for us to inform the 22nd of the rules are not inherent in that rule (nor in any other rule as far as I can see) and hence irrelevant in this matter - unless you understand the rule "The event admins will have the final say. If a dispute does not fall in your favour or you are unhappy with a decision, you must accept it." to mean that admins may make decisions contrary to other rules.

And if our representatives didn't seem extremely forceful at the talks, then it was because
1. Everyone was quite in shock that after hours of preparation the 22nd just outright refused to play after the match was supposed to start.
2. Our representatives are civil, respectful people who tried to keep their annoyance at bay in order to see if there was a solution to this situation other than postponing. 'No, we play now or take the default win. No discussion.' is just not something that you could expect them to say without first letting the opponent describe the problem, but very likely would have been the eventual conclusion to the discussion, which 22nd would have found out if they had not just left.

We refuse to let our open-mindedness and civility be read as "reluctant agreement". There certainly was no agreement - reluctant or otherwise. Our team-reps behaviour in those talks is responsible and forthcoming, but not in any sort an agreement to postponing. Furthermore it is fully irrelevant in regards to the rules.

It is certainly true that telling them explicitly that we want to play then and otherwise would take the default win would have simplified things. It is not necessary, though.

It is clear to me that they didn't want to fight an 8 or 9 man 22nd. They wanted to fight a 10 man full strength team. However, 22nd were not at full strength and there was nothing they could do about that. At that point, they either had to commit to saying "right, we'll play 10vs8" or "OK, we'll agree to play another day". Had they told 22nd they wanted to play 10vs8 and 22nd refused, I could understand them wanting the default win and would've granted it.

What makes you think that? No part in the logs or anywhere else (that I am aware of) suggests that we would not have played 10vs8 or even 8vs8.

This issue has been the substance of my interchange with IG. Several PMs were sent back and forth. IG highlighted different areas trying to prove that infact they had been clear. None of it, in my view, was anything like what was necessary.

The steam chatlog is private currently and I'm happy for it to be posted, at the discretion of IG. I won't be posting it myself. I think a copy of it, in its raw form, will show the poor attitude of the 22nd, along with the indecisiveness of IG and make it clear why there is a big issue in my granting a default win, under these circumstances.

I understand that the rules do not explicitly say "you must state, in the moment, whether or not you want a default win" nor do I think it's necessary and obviously that wouldn't be possible in cases where the other team isn't even contactable. However, it is common sense that you must make it perfectly clear whether or not you want to play the match. Since IG failed to do that, I can only assume that like 22nd, under the circumstances, they did not want to play the match and therefore to grant them a default win would be completely ill fitting.

That is not treating the rule as a guideline but simply not using it where it is not appropriate.

That is not common sense. Common sense is that rules are known by all participating clans and that each clan is responsible for adhering to them without being cautioned by other clans to do so.
Your assumption that we did not want to play the match is false.

Now, I go back to why this wouldn't have happened, had I been there. If it is not already obvious, I would have seen that IG were using such language and not being at all constructive and I would have been there to do it in their stead. This is a strong argument in favour of having referees and it's another thing I'll be looking at for the next cycle. I wasn't there, though and the IG reps lacked the conviction to do, or the intuition to see (or both) what was necessary at the time and 22nd don't deserve punishment for that. 22nd, like any other team would, wanted to try and play under the best possible circumstances. IG didn't have to allow them that but they had to be clear in their rejection of that request and they weren't.

As I argued, we made sufficiently clear that we were not ready to postpone. It is not our responsibility to educate the 22nd about the rules or their consequences. If you had been there to do that, it would indeed have simplified matters a whole lot. But you weren't there.

Edit:
In addition, event admin should not have God powers above the rules. The admin may use his/her power of verdict in arbitrative issues but the rules cannot be arbitrative and open to debate during the league cycle, they should not be.
Otherwise it seriously damages reliability of the league and this organization just turns into "Lust's Native European League"...

Let it be clear that I did not override the rules. I did not ignore the rules. I simply felt that the under the circumstances (i.e. IG not actually wanting to play the match, in light of 22nd's situation), the rules were not applicable.

The rule they referred to requires that one team wants to fight and another team doesn't or can't (has less than 8 players). I believe neither team wanted to fight, at that point. If IG post the steam chatlog, that will be made perfectly clear.

That was explained in my post.

Please provide evidence for that. I certainly know of no reason to assume we did not want to play the match.

 

[Coffee_n_smokes]

wut is dis?

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[Morii]

Some people seem to like to start their posts with "this could all have been prevented.."

So imo we should include somewhere that 22nd had only 10 players signed up in total and that if they had been smart enough to know that they were taking a huge chance by not trying to postpone the match earlier, this all indeed could have been avoided. Basically their willingness to gamble in such an unresponsible way ****ed up our weekends (plans made/changed/canceled, most IG's are adults: most of us actually have got stuff to do besides gaming). But all is well, because such situations had been foreseen by the tournament organisator, after all he made rules that would make sure clans wouldn't just get away with it if they failed their gamble. However, the organisator seemed to disagree with his own rules when he told us he had no intention of letting us have even the choice of a default win as per his own rules. Needless to say IG was pissed. Apparently the organisator mistook kindness for weakness, thinking that us(IG) not starting flame wars on the forums or being dicks in steam conversations meant we didn't feel strongly about the whole affair. I can tell you we were and still are, the discussion of us leaving the tournament has not been an overnight one, but one well-discussed days before our actual departure.

Relevant snippet from steam convo in which 22nd anounced they would not play the match:

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...
Lugh: but anyway - if you only had 10 members signing up, wouldn't it have made sense to request a new date IN ADVANCE of the match
Plazek: no
Plazek: because we wnated to play at the agreed time
Lugh: no?
Plazek: and we believed we had 10 players
Plazek: which is neough
Lugh: but that's just reckless
Plazek: sorry
Plazek: but we intended to honour our agreed time
Plazek: till  became apparant we could not
Lugh: its easy to lose one or two players to problems, you should anticipate something like this happening
Plazek: quit your finger pointing
Lugh: either ensure you have more than 10 signed up or reschedule IN ADVANCE
Plazek: you can tell us how to run th 22nd
Plazek: when we get to tell you how to run IG
...

Then a possible solution came up: We would postpone the match, but their would also be consequences for the 22nd's wild gamble (the 'conditions', see spoiler below)

隐藏

We agree to postpone the 22nd match on our conditions, i.e. at a date of our choosing. We plan to inform the 22nd of the date with sufficient time in advance (at least four days), once we have set the date. As we understand, we have until the end of the league to play the match, but we are not quite sure which date that would be, so a deadline for when the league is set to end would be appreciated.

We also would like for this agreement to be made public, for three reasons:
1) The 22nd did break the rules and it would have been perfectly within our rights to take the default win. We decided upon this solution of our own free will and not due to any force by the 22nd. We also want the problem to be discussed among ENL participants and the 22nd's behaviour reprimanded. Incidents like this should not occur. Any clans who cannot adhere to the rules should be warned to follow them or be excluded from the tournament. This is not intended as punishment for the 22nd, but rather as a warning that we would expect every clan to receive when they break rules multiple times.
2) The problem seems to have occurred at least twice (RRush vs. AB), so bringing it to the attention of all participants would be beneficial.
3) Agreements and decisions like this should be published in order to keep the league transparent.

We hope that the announcement makes clear that per the tournament rules we were entitled to the default win, that the 22nd broke the rules, that such behaviour by the 22nd and other clans has to stop and that we came to an agreement with you to postponed the match for the sake of the tournament.

Note that the postponing the match on our conditions (conditions not yet defined at that point) was Lust's proposal afaik, and the majority in IG wanted to accept it so we could still play the 22nd and continue the tournament while still seeing 22nd being admonished for their reckless gamble and possibly some rule-enhancements would come out of it.

For those who don't understand I'll try to explain in a better way: IG acted civil throughout all these discussions, IG's position in these matters was quite clear from the start; all the discussions that dragged this affair out were mostly about how the organisator felt we hadn't been forceful enough in the steam conversation. Because IG acted civil throughout the discussions and did not start flame wars on the forums, we knew that 'the public' could be confused about what was going on and that is why the 'conditions' are there; to inform the public by an official source (organisator) as to not start a flamewar. Lust telling me that he basically was going to throw this compromise in our face and ignore those 'conditions' and with that effectively telling me that 22nd's reckless gamble in not beforehand postponing a match for which they had only 10 ppl signed up was actually going to work out just fine for them, basically telling us (and this is truely what it felt like) '**** you IG, I don't care they ruined your weekend by their own terrible organisation, I'm gonna have them have their way and bully you around', was the last drop.

Relevant steam convo:

隐藏

dinsdag 23 augustus 2011
16:30 - Mörii: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,190599.0.html
16:30 - Mörii: dude.. wtf?
16:31 - captain lust: ?
16:31 - Mörii: is sadn just being a **** here again and assuming things?
16:31 - Mörii: cuz IG hasnt had any kind of message in which the conditions of this deal were confirmed..
16:32 - captain lust: yeah I got a mesage from Lugh on 17th
16:32 - captain lust: saying you agreed to that
16:32 - Mörii: with a bunch of conditions
16:32 - captain lust: erm... such as?
16:33 - Mörii: im pretty sure I read the message that was sent and still have it somewhere
16:33 - Mörii: one sec
16:34 - Mörii: should be something along the lines of this:
16:34 - Mörii: We also want this agreement to be made public, for three reasons:
1) The 22nd did break the rules and it would have been perfectly within our rights to take the default win. We decided for this solution of our own free will and not due to any force by the 22nd or you. We also want the problem to be discussed and the 22nd's behaviour reprimanded. Incidents like this should not occur and clans who cannot adhere to the rules should be warned to do so or be excluded. This is not intended as punishment for the 22nd, but rather as a warning that we would expect every clan to get when they break rules multiple times.
2) The problem seems to have occurred at least twice (RRush vs. AB), so bringing it to the attention of all participants would be beneficial.
3) Agreements and decisions like this should be published in order to keep the league transparent.
16:34 - captain lust: that didn't come across as a condition
16:34 - captain lust: "we also want" is a request
16:35 - Mörii: lust, im not a 3 year old
16:35 - Mörii: but i ll keep my temper and see what my leaders have to say
16:35 - Mörii: good day

The message to IG leadership concerning Lust not accepting the conditions, only came after this steam convo afaik.

Conclusion: 'this could all have been prevented, ...' if 22nd had recognized that it was taking a very reckless gamble when not postponing a match before actual match time in which they had only 10 ppl signed up. I'm absolutely sure that even if 22nd had asked to postpone only a day before the match, IG would have accepted it. But refusing to play at match time? Then leaving before any conclusion has come to the discussion? In the words of the organisator:

'Basically, **** you.'


P.S: I'd like to add that I really appreciate most of Lust's work in organising tournaments for the community, it's making the community stronger, more appealing to outsiders and keeps 'Native-boredom' away, yet I think everyone should realize that it is almost never wise to want to do it all by yourself.

 

[Sarosu]

-Lust

Thing is... Lust declared alot of games default wins, because of minor issues like a player not correctly signing up as the roster, even though quite clearly being in the clan and the team. Matches where this happened, got a default win thrown at them, even though it wasn't really necassary, only according to the rules, and to make an example and show how much the rules matters and should be followed. Good example. Follow the rules.

Where Lust fails now, is that he does not force the rules, because he dosen't feel it is the right thing to do so, and I totally agree. However, the rules here should be followed. IG should indeed be given a default win, even if it is silly and unsportmanshiplike, which it is. Lust have acted in good will, but got crushed between 2 good intentions.

Declare the default win for IG, and say, wth, it dosen't matter. We'll shape the rules better for the new league. IG will win this league, but everyone knows the only reason IG won, was because of their perversion with rules and forum-victories.

ps. get more support. Lessen your tasks to do. 'If you have to do it right, do it yourself' shouldn't be a part of this. You got too much work to do.

-IG

You should show yourself to be better than this. This is really shamefull, and portraits you really bad. Remember how small the community is, and for how long we will all remember how wrong, unsportmanshiplike, weak and cowardly this decision of yours is. Even if it is your right, according to the rules, is this really the way you want to win a league, so you can brag about it on your homepage? Show some dignity, and have a propper fight with 22nd. You might win. I don't think any of us really cares if it takes you a month to find a date for this match, it should be possible.

Remember, the league will improve, and Lust have shown very capable, even though he makes some mistakes, this is indeed the best league we've seen in our community. If you **** this over, which you are, there wont be second chances. You fail the competetive community, and you fail your reputation. I really think you should reconsider your decision. If you stay, the league, and lust, will improve.
Help shape it, don't destroy it.

-22nd
You have been assholes in this. You did not stay calm or cool, and I think this has caused problems for you. You did indeed not follow the rules on several occasions, showing that you're pretty careless towards them, which is disrespecting the whole league imo. If you want to have any right in this, and be able to be assholes to everyone, you could at least follow the rules.

However, I agree with you. This league should be won on the battlefield, no on the forums. You did indeed give IG a fair chance to fight a more suitable match for them, and they ****ed you over because of trivialities. Lust supports you, but his support should be unofficial, but officially, in order to respect the league which he created, he should declare IG's default win, even though we all know it is wrong... Just not according to the rules... Rules suck... But...

You should accept the default win for IG. Everyone knows it is wrong. But who cares? Everyone knows that IG will win this only because of their screwed up idealistic word loving minds. There will be a new league, and it will improve. Next league, try to follow the rules. After this one is over, it will be time to shape the new rules. I really hope lust will listen carefully, to what everyone has to say.

edit (Lugh was kinda a **** in the discussion between IG and 22nd ( in the chatlogs) He weren't giving any direct answer at any time, but rather stating obvious things, seeming very arrogant. I can see now why 22nd got frustrated over this. Show respect to other clans, and they will respect you aswell. )



-Peace

 

[GabrielDav3]

wut is dis?

隐藏

Lol wtf coffee