IG's departure from the ENL

[Jur]

Can somebody tell me if the match postponed because 22nd asked or it was mutual?

 

[MaHuD]

I don't think that I completely get it, but basicly IG doesn't want to reschedule because 22nd failed to show up?

 

[sadnhappy]

I don't think that I completely get it, but basicly IG doesn't want to reschedule because 22nd failed to show up?

It's an extremely long story and IG in this threads OP has distorted the truth which makes it even more confusing.

 

[MaHuD]

But basicly, at some point you guys didn't have enough people to play?
Which should, count as an auto-win for IG. But generally speaking nobody likes the auto-win so it was decided by everyone but IG that there should be a re-match ?

 

[Goker]

Well, basically, at the arranged time 22nd didn't have enough people to play. But then IG said that they were considering the default win. It took a long time for them to decide, obviously, so Lust talked to them and told them to reschedule. Now, if you want the default win, that's fine. But you don't keep the other side waiting for that long while holding all the ropes.  Yes, the rules say that you can get the default win, if you are sure that you want to. But if you can't decide, organizers do it for you.

And hey, if you really love the rules that much, you said it yourself, there is a rule stating that organizers have the final say. You're leaving cause you don't want to follow that rule.

 

[Temuzu]

...I dont get it. Why cant IG have the default win like the rules say? Just because 22nd can play at another time?

Interesting logic, if thats how things are.

 

[Yiit]

Bull****. Stop being childish.

 

[? M]

I get why you've left since imo enforcing the rules as they're written (even if they're misguided rules in the first place) is important in things like this. It's a shame for IG, this league and the competitive scene in general though

 

[sadnhappy]

Originally we gave IG 2-3 weeks postpone due to their request. Of course, in good sportsmanship, we agreed, since we wanted a 100% 22nd vs. 100% IG match to happen. This is something IG doesn't want to happen, obviously.

Thing is, we could have not agreed to their original request but we aren't arseholes. If we were, we could have demanded that we'd play it the original deadline, thus facing a 10% IG clan without it's three commanders or whatever, since they were all on holidays or even being granted a default win. But we aren't that low, we have never been in the favour of default wins since they are very much against the sportsmanship. And this is how they repaid us, bringing all this nonsense bull****. That is the thing that bothers me. The situation is very much 1-1 in terms of postponing and scheduling and whatnot. They made a mountain out of a molehill or however the expression goes.

We didn't even dream nor did we have the slightest idea ever that IG would have the nerve to demand a forfeit win or act like this. This explains my "How dare you" -post from way back. I was so sick to my stomach of the unsportsmanship like behaviour coming from one of the best clans in Warband. We have always maintained dignity and honour, died in the battlefield like warriors so all this paperwork thing really bothered me and us as a clan, we couldn't believe our eyes when we read about all of it. Also at the moment when the match was supposed happen the ENL servers were constantly crashing which caused distraction and it was time consuming aswell and even then whether or not the announcement of postponing came after the clock stroke 20:00 is very much irrelevant. Also we had several unexpected ISP problems with our Swedish members. etc.. What it boils down to is IG trying to use every single little detail, twist and turn those minor details around in order to make them look good in this thing when they clearly had no right to, after all the hospitality we gave to them.

This is my last post about this thing. It makes me sad. When Plazek comes back home from holiday and if the discussion is still going on, I'll leave it to him to handle.

 

[crazyboy11]

It's an extremely long story and IG in this threads OP has distorted the truth which makes it even more confusing.

For this reason alone I think lust was right in his judgement.

 

[Arch3r]

I wish people could just play their matches and stop taking stuff so seriously. We did it under the worst possible circumstances against IG, we lost terribly and we can live with it. I always see rules as a guideline. Everyone, being a gamer and enjoying matches (because otherwise they would obviously not play in the ENL at all), wants to test their skill against enemy teams of about the same skill level. Sometimes organization on either your side or the enemies side is just bad, but that's part of a skill clans should have for the tournament, a skill CoR lacks a bit. At other times the date can be bad. In that case both teams, being sportsmen, should be able to rearrange a date fitting for both. Should.

PS. This thread plus the discussion is useless anyways, IG says blabla, 22nd says no blabla. There are some references to steam discussions and private PMs, in which things are said, and yes it is all vague. Is this thread with an OP full of reasons for leaving, seen from the IG point of view, a thread attempting to have people joining a side? IG or 22nd? If not, what then? If so, what for and why all these vague references?

 

[SCGavin]

Basically, **** you.

The league will continue as normal and I won't react to this pathetic, cynical move.

It would be appreciated if you would remove us from the fixtures, tables etcetera.

I think you were right til the point where you did the "conditional agreement to postpone" thing. Nothing you mentioned gives you the right to say "Hey there. We demand this stuff, or else we won't play"

To be honest, it just makes me think that you were still reluctant to play even after agreeing to postpone.

We did not agree to postpone; we were ready to agree to do so if certain conditions were met. They weren't.

We had good reasons for not agreeing to postpone initially and we were prepared to do so nonetheless, if certain sensible conditions were met. lust did more or less reply "I can't see how that's particularly constructive and I'm afraid it's a no." to our conditions, without giving arguments as to why he thinks so and hence we decided against postponing.

PFF, and you guys get all giddy when the US has drama. While the rules may be clear, isn't it the intent of a default win/loss to be a final option, not something you skip to right away, no matter how one side or another "acted" or "demanded."

While I do understand that being prepared only to have the other side not bring their share is frustrating, one or two bad experiences (especially with a clan such as the 22nd) should not be taken out against the entirety of the league or diplomacy in general.

The rules are clear in this regard. We did not want to prepare and wait for naught only to be more or less told that we would have to postpone. We were initially undecided, as we do not like winning by default, but after some internal discussion we contacted lust and informed him that we accepted the default win as per the rules. He was however reluctant to give it to us. I can understand his reluctance, but do not think that refusing the default win was in adherence to the rules. Neither me, nor our members wanted to play in a league were the rules are inconsequential and can be ignored at will. This is not about "one or two bad experiences" but about the way the league works.

I don't think that I completely get it, but basicly IG doesn't want to reschedule because 22nd failed to show up?

The 22nd did not show up and informed us after the match was supposed to start. They asked us to postpone, but we were reluctant (as we had prepared and cancelled other stuff that day). We had a discussion on steam about it, which ended when the 22nd left without any solution being reached. We (IG) had made our stance to postponing (negative) clear during the discussion, so their departure from the chat left matters unresolved and certainly not in favour of postponing. Hence Lugh made a post, in which he explained that we were thinking about accepting the default win.

But basicly, at some point you guys didn't have enough people to play?
Which should, count as an auto-win for IG. But generally speaking nobody likes the auto-win so it was decided by everyone but IG that there should be a re-match ?

Essentially, yes. Obviously we are not prepared to accept that, especially not if the rules are in our favour.

Well, basically, at the arranged time 22nd didn't have enough people to play. But then IG said that they were considering the default win. It took a long time for them to decide, obviously, so Lust talked to them and told them to reschedule. Now, if you want the default win, that's fine. But you don't keep the other side waiting for that long while holding all the ropes.  Yes, the rules say that you can get the default win, if you are sure that you want to. But if you can't decide, organizers do it for you.

And hey, if you really love the rules that much, you said it yourself, there is a rule stating that organizers have the final say. You're leaving cause you don't want to follow that rule.

Lust did not step in to make a decision. We made ours (default win) and contacted him. In reply he told us that he did not want to give us the default win and we discussed for some time. Eventually he made a suggestion for us to postpone to a date of our choosing and we discussed that suggestion internally and accepted it if some further conditions were met. They were not and hence we ultimately did not accept it.

And hey, if you really love the rules that much, you said it yourself, there is a rule stating that organizers have the final say. You're leaving cause you don't want to follow that rule.

Yep:

[...] This decision obviously goes against the rules of the tournament but can be made legitimate by one if the rules: "The event admins will have the final say. If a dispute does not fall in your favour or you are unhappy with a decision, you must accept it". This would then however mean that event admins can decide as they please and even contradict other tournament rules.

We see no point in playing in a league where the majority of rules can be disregarded at will by the organiser, especially when we (and other clans) make the effort to adhere to the rules. We therefore take our leave from this league.

Also there are several lies in the OP and false accusations and the general tone of it makes us look far more aggressive in our talks than we ever have been, it was quite hard to read to be honest. I don't understand the anomosity coming from IG over this whole thing. I could explain in detail all the parts in the OP that are flawed but I don't have the time and what's the point now that IG has left.

If we made false accusations, I am sorry for that and we will removed them. Provided that you point out what those falsehoods are.

We have a match against CoR coming up next week probably so I think we'll be finishing it up in the battlefield my friend. And that's what we have done, settled the matches in the battlefield. I wouldn't had a problem admitting defeat to IG in the battlefield after the 20 rounds had been over were the match been played in the near future. None whatsoever. 'cause I know I'd be man enough to admit a loss if a loss will come in the future, thus retained my dignity, upholding our values and having fought like a man in the battlefield. Same thing with CoR, if we might lose against them. I'm not scared of losing, unfortunately some people are.

We would not have had a problem admitting defeat to the 22nd after a match on the battlefield. However determining who the winner on the field is was not possible as you did not show up.

I don't think that I completely get it, but basicly IG doesn't want to reschedule because 22nd failed to show up?

It's an extremely long story and IG in this threads OP has distorted the truth which makes it even more confusing.

Again, if we misrepresented the truth, I am sorry and will correct it, provided you point out to me these distortions of truth.

Originally we gave IG 2-3 weeks postpone due to their request. Of course, in good sportsmanship, we agreed, since we wanted a 100% 22nd vs. 100% IG match to happen. This is something IG doesn't want to happen, obviously.

Thing is, we could have not agreed to their original request but we aren't arseholes. If we were, we could have demanded that we'd play it the original deadline, thus facing a 10% IG clan without it's three commanders or whatever, since they were all on holidays or even being granted a default win. But we aren't that low, we have never been in the favour of default wins since they are very much against the sportsmanship. And this is how they repaid us, bringing all this nonsense bull****. That is the thing that bothers me. The situation is very much 1-1 in terms of postponing and scheduling and whatnot. They made a mountain out of a molehill or however the expression goes.

We didn't even dream nor did we have the slightest idea ever that IG would have the nerve to demand a forfeit win or act like this. This explains my "How dare you" -post from way back. I was so sick to my stomach of the unsportsmanship like behaviour coming from one of the best clans in Warband. We have always maintained dignity and honour, died in the battlefield like warriors so all this paperwork thing really bothered me and us as a clan, we couldn't believe our eyes when we read about all of it. Also at the moment when the match was supposed happen the ENL servers were constantly crashing which caused distraction and it was time consuming aswell and even then whether or not the announcement of postponing came after the clock stroke 20:00 is very much irrelevant. Also we had several unexpected ISP problems with our Swedish members. etc.. What it boils down to is IG trying to use every single little detail, twist and turn those minor details around in order to make them look good in this thing when they clearly had no right to, after all the hospitality we gave to them.

This is my last post about this thing. It makes me sad. When Plazek comes back home from holiday and if the discussion is still going on, I'll leave it to him to handle.

I think I replied to all these points of yours before, so I'll just link to my previous post: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,185947.msg4458442.html#msg4458442

We do not like default wins and would have been happy to play against you on the field - no matter the result - had you showed up. The situation was different when we asked you to play after the deadline and your constructed scenario were you are sportsmanlike and we are evildoers who only look for victory is just a fictional invention, as already argued in the linked post.

The leading team in ENL div A quits like this is just a big slap in the face of the competive community. This is stupid drama, something we don't need.

This league is supposed to bring enjoyment to the participants. If it does not do that and participants decide to leave, it is their business. While doing so has consequences on the competitive community, it is not a "big slap in the face", nor "stupid drama".

Also, actively pursuing a default win when the tournament organiser disgrees with you is complete rubbish. You should've bit your lip and played the match, 22nd should have apologised for missing the match, and we'd all be friends now wouldn't we.

We form our own opinion and will stand behind it, even if there are repercussions. We do not see the point in letting someone else dictate what we have to do.

Is this thread with an OP full of reasons for leaving, seen from the IG point of view, a thread attempting to have people joining a side? IG or 22nd? If not, what then? If so, what for and why all these vague references?

We left the league and made our reasons for doing so public as they concern the league. People do not need to take any side, neither do they need to post. As sadnhappy charged us with distorting the truth, I will leave this thread open so that he can provide evidence and so that I can correct our post once he does so. Once that is settled, I will lock this thread.

 

[MaHuD]

What's the problem if either of you looses?

Basicly, who cares?
Ever saw those world tournament football/soccer matches?
One year this team wins, one year the other team wins.

As long as a team is consistent in being at the top it is considered a good team.
And every few years there is this random team that wins instead of the favoured ones.
In the end it doesn't matter, because there will be a new league to try again, and again and yet again.
100 percent win rate is cool, but not needed to win nor needed to have fun.

It's complete bull**** to refuse to play a match because you don't have your top players around, and also complete bull**** to ragequit just because you are afraid to loose and would rather get an Autowin.


From my point of view, both IG and 22nd should step up their act.

I have three proposes to fix this, and one proposal that leaves things hanging in shame.

1) CaptainLust chooses a new date and time for a rematch. This match will be final and will be played unless the servers are down.
2) 22nd and IG have their Champion fight in a duel to decide the date of a new match
3) Duel for Auto-Win IG or Auto-Win 22nd
4) IG leaves the tournament.



The Duels could be either just 1 dueler of each clan, or something like 3 champions of both clans. (The latter to show a more accurate picture of each clan. Note it would mean a total of 3 duels that each play up to say... 7 and the one with the most Won duels wins.)
- Example:
1 duel of up to (example) 7 rounds between A <-> Z
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  B <-> Y
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  C <-> X

A wins from Z, B wins from Y and X wins from C
makes 2 - 1 and team 1 wins.

 

[McBeverage]

Nothing against either side, here, but the typo in the title of the thread bugs me every time it comes up. 

 

[Leifr Eiríksson]

This dispute may only be settled through the use of pugil sticks, neon-lycra and a healthy dose of slip-slide water. It is the only way to quell this serious discussion about an internet tournament where an e-title is the reward.

 

[TurambarMakart]

This dispute may only be settled through the use of pugil sticks, neon-lycra and a healthy dose of slip-slide water. It is the only way to quell this serious discussion about an internet tournament where an e-title is the reward.

 

[Lezard]

Nothing against either side, here, but the typo in the title of the thread bugs me every time it comes up. 

loose

People misspelling "lose" all the time is seriously getting to my head, srsly. Don't you agree?

 

[ModusTollens]

loose

People misspelling "lose" all the time is seriously getting to my head, srsly. Don't you agree?

Hm - in that context, for me as a non-native speaker, "loose" would also make sense. Although I'm not sure about the word order/completeness of the sentence.

 

[SCGavin]

隐藏

What's the problem if either of you looses?

Basicly, who cares?
Ever saw those world tournament football/soccer matches?
One year this team wins, one year the other team wins.

As long as a team is consistent in being at the top it is considered a good team.
And every few years there is this random team that wins instead of the favoured ones.
In the end it doesn't matter, because there will be a new league to try again, and again and yet again.
100 percent win rate is cool, but not needed to win nor needed to have fun.

It's complete bull**** to refuse to play a match because you don't have your top players around, and also complete bull**** to ragequit just because you are afraid to loose and would rather get an Autowin.


From my point of view, both IG and 22nd should step up their act.

I have three proposes to fix this, and one proposal that leaves things hanging in shame.

1) CaptainLust chooses a new date and time for a rematch. This match will be final and will be played unless the servers are down.
2) 22nd and IG have their Champion fight in a duel to decide the date of a new match
3) Duel for Auto-Win IG or Auto-Win 22nd
4) IG leaves the tournament.



The Duels could be either just 1 dueler of each clan, or something like 3 champions of both clans. (The latter to show a more accurate picture of each clan. Note it would mean a total of 3 duels that each play up to say... 7 and the one with the most Won duels wins.)
- Example:
1 duel of up to (example) 7 rounds between A <-> Z
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  B <-> Y
1 duel of up to  (example) 7 rounds  C <-> X

A wins from Z, B wins from Y and X wins from C
makes 2 - 1 and team 1 wins.

This is not about winning or losing; this is about the tournament rules and organisation.

Of course we care about winning and losing, but we are neither afraid of losing against the 22nd nor is the chance of losing the reason why we are leaving. We are leaving because we do not want to play in a league were the rules mean nothing and are treated like guidelines that are sometimes enforced and sometimes ignored.

 

[Goker]

We are leaving because we do not want to play in a league were the rules mean nothing and are treated like guidelines that are sometimes enforced and sometimes ignored.

They are not ignored. They're just overridden by another rule. Which you do not want to adhere to. That's why you're leaving.

This decision obviously goes against the rules of the tournament but can be made legitimate by one if the rules: "The event admins will have the final say. If a dispute does not fall in your favour or you are unhappy with a decision, you must accept it". This would then however mean that event admins can decide as they please and even contradict other tournament rules.