IG_Battlegrounds is up again!
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I understand that and he is not the one to blame.Aeronwen said:
None of the IG admins can do smthg about the circles imo.
Its just a fact, that the scene will die again after the bcm, if the only server to play on is IG.
We need smthg to keep the people interested in the game.
IG Battlegrounds will be empty again in at least 2 weeks.
modded F&D is the only way
the people crave it
the people crave it
Razer' said:
That is true, if the players choose to circle there is nothing the admins can do about it.
The death of IG has been predicted regularly over the last few years but somehow people keep coming back to it. It is here as a service to the players and it will remain.
I am not the one to say this, as I am not working on the WBMM. However, I believe the project is completely dead. It is safe to assume, that the moderation will not allow its existence at least until Mynes is unbanned and neither Mynes nor anyone else should take the risk of being sued by the TaleWorlds itself for this. People better get used to the IG_Battlegrounds.
Aeronwen said:
This is true but it's also another way of saying "IG regularly goes dead". IG is great fun sometimes and it's a hallmark of the community, but there are also flaws which cause many players to tire of it quickly and go do other things, which causes the population to collapse.
Changing things up and keeping it fresh is an easy way to retain players.
I don't really understand, how does a battle server keep things fresh? As Aeronwen mentioned IG_Battleground is a service. Of course there are going to be updates to keep competition alive but, if IG_BG change everything to serve purpose of keeping server alive all the time, it wouldn't be a native battle server anymore. One can only raise instant flags, limit classes and issue some delay on spawn for specific class. I don't think that it's IG_Battleground's responsibility to offer variety because IG_Battlegrounds is a competitive battle server. Not a desktop client with lots of functions. Hence comparing this two rather than having both of them is silly.
I'm not comparing to a client like MM, I mean relatively simple changes like you indicate, but can also be used to make changes to classes, game mode etc.
You can also just keep doing the same, like I say IG is fun and an appreciated service. But it will inevitably end up empty some time after BCM without changes.
You can also just keep doing the same, like I say IG is fun and an appreciated service. But it will inevitably end up empty some time after BCM without changes.
Sorry that i didn't understand solution very well, are you suggesting to change game mod and modificating classes to end circles? If so, how does that going to solve circle problem?
Well, there are multiple problems some of which are easier to solve than others. An easy start is removing javelins from nord infantry, this will make all those one sided closed maps much less frustrating where nords simply chase down whatever the enemy team is.
Another easy fix is to implement the shield skill stat changes, which will make archer spam less of a problem. Right now if you're a Sarranid or Vaegir infantry pushing 2-3 rangers is almost certain death as even slightly different angles give them a shot over/around your shield since you have 2 shield skill.
This isn't a complete overhaul but does significantly improve the gameplay.
The circling is a harder problem that happens because players have no obvious goal beyond "kill" and winning/losing by objective is not satisfying either. Instant flags is better but usually we end up increasing the raise time which makes it pointless and people return to circling.
I would suggest something more like CS where you have objective and an attack/defend dynamic, but this isn't tested at all really and would need more work. Azan has suggested adding a gold-gaining feature when standing on flag which might be a more immediate way of getting people to focus on objective.
Blivandefar has suggested before set flag rotations e.g. instead of random/not previous flag, it always goes, if on Sandi: graveyard, middle, alley, repeat. You could then have this set as instant flag spawns, and if it's still ignored, add gold bonus. etc
You could even keep some maps as "free roam" style. Verloren for example I tend to find has much less circling due to the central tower mechanic so it could maybe remain unchanged, among a few other maps. Would allow for some difference in gameplay without it being a circle every round.
Just ideas.
Another easy fix is to implement the shield skill stat changes, which will make archer spam less of a problem. Right now if you're a Sarranid or Vaegir infantry pushing 2-3 rangers is almost certain death as even slightly different angles give them a shot over/around your shield since you have 2 shield skill.
This isn't a complete overhaul but does significantly improve the gameplay.
The circling is a harder problem that happens because players have no obvious goal beyond "kill" and winning/losing by objective is not satisfying either. Instant flags is better but usually we end up increasing the raise time which makes it pointless and people return to circling.
I would suggest something more like CS where you have objective and an attack/defend dynamic, but this isn't tested at all really and would need more work. Azan has suggested adding a gold-gaining feature when standing on flag which might be a more immediate way of getting people to focus on objective.
Blivandefar has suggested before set flag rotations e.g. instead of random/not previous flag, it always goes, if on Sandi: graveyard, middle, alley, repeat. You could then have this set as instant flag spawns, and if it's still ignored, add gold bonus. etc
You could even keep some maps as "free roam" style. Verloren for example I tend to find has much less circling due to the central tower mechanic so it could maybe remain unchanged, among a few other maps. Would allow for some difference in gameplay without it being a circle every round.
Just ideas.
For the circle running thing, I thought about something. I am playing a lot of Guild wars 2 lately and I think that we could inspire from it's commander system. Basically, some people on the map can activate a special tag and lead the different event, battle in World vs World, etc.
I don't know if it is possible but we could put a small banner or something like this over the head of a "commander" that would "lead" his team. He would not give orders but just let people follow him and make the fight happen faster.
We used to ask people to follow us with some unity to rush directly in the middle on sandi or reveran. Usually it ended up with the majority of our team following us into big melee fights which are funnier than what we are used to on the server.
We would just need people to apply for this role and be prepared to tag in when it's needed.
Sorry for my poor english.
I don't know if it is possible but we could put a small banner or something like this over the head of a "commander" that would "lead" his team. He would not give orders but just let people follow him and make the fight happen faster.
We used to ask people to follow us with some unity to rush directly in the middle on sandi or reveran. Usually it ended up with the majority of our team following us into big melee fights which are funnier than what we are used to on the server.
We would just need people to apply for this role and be prepared to tag in when it's needed.
Sorry for my poor english.
Circling is due to a kind of game theory you play with everyone else on your team. The people who avoid engagement live longer on average and may have a slightly higher chance for gaining kills as a result.
Of course if the whole team charged as a team then everyone might get more kills, but people don't measure the team victory as much as how high in the scoreboard you are.
If you want circling to stop then you need either an objective which a team can't avoid or an incentive to create reward for players who actually choose to fight. You could also find a way to punish people who deliberately avoid engagement but carrots are better than sticks. That was the idea behind a small trickle of gold on the flag, to add an incentive to hold it (and reward since it wins rounds and is totally thankless).
The instant spawning flags did create a decent objective, but as ogl said when the timer was raised it removed the urgency so people started circling again. When the timer was low it was fine for some flags but too hard for others, the proper solution is to configure it so the raise times change based on distance to the two spawns. That way if configured right you could make it so that a team can always arrive with plenty of time to contest the flag but cannot ignore it without instantly losing every round.
Of course if the whole team charged as a team then everyone might get more kills, but people don't measure the team victory as much as how high in the scoreboard you are.
If you want circling to stop then you need either an objective which a team can't avoid or an incentive to create reward for players who actually choose to fight. You could also find a way to punish people who deliberately avoid engagement but carrots are better than sticks. That was the idea behind a small trickle of gold on the flag, to add an incentive to hold it (and reward since it wins rounds and is totally thankless).
The instant spawning flags did create a decent objective, but as ogl said when the timer was raised it removed the urgency so people started circling again. When the timer was low it was fine for some flags but too hard for others, the proper solution is to configure it so the raise times change based on distance to the two spawns. That way if configured right you could make it so that a team can always arrive with plenty of time to contest the flag but cannot ignore it without instantly losing every round.
OurGloriousLeader said:
Really happy for any suggestions that involve staying true to the original aim of IG which is simply to provide a place for competitive players to practise when they dont have scrim arranged ^^
It is really helpful if suggestions are made in the steam group though
your suggested changes would take IG away from having teh same conditions as tournaments though.
Our aim is not to keep the server as full as possible but to provide a service.
Lord Rich said:
tbh I think sometimes changes are reversed simply because when tinkering they are accidentally not retained. Also the old host disappearing and starting from scratch has caused some anomalies.
We do have a problem that some changes are fine for smaller maps and not for others or are good for low populations and not for higher populations.
We can easily lower the flag spawn time.
The raise times being variable is a very interesting idea. I would worry that the flag raise time depending on the map would be a variable too far, it is pretty non obvious unless you are already in the know. It also seems to be one of those things that would take us too far for normal competitive play.
Copying tournament match rules 1:1 is not going to work. You should look at the output rather than the input. You put in the same rules, yet IG plays out completely different than matches, simply because the numbers are different. You should put changes in place that make the output of IG more comparable to how matches play out, then you'll end up with a truely competitive server.
You could maybe take each map, cut it in three pieces with one of the flags in the center of each of those smaller maps, and then spawn groups of 8 players for each team on these smaller maps (one map would have 9 players on both sides when the server is full). You could even make it so that one team holds the flag, and the other one has to attack it, because that's generally how matches play out. The team that wins at least two of those small maps wins the round. Repeat until X round wins.
You could maybe take each map, cut it in three pieces with one of the flags in the center of each of those smaller maps, and then spawn groups of 8 players for each team on these smaller maps (one map would have 9 players on both sides when the server is full). You could even make it so that one team holds the flag, and the other one has to attack it, because that's generally how matches play out. The team that wins at least two of those small maps wins the round. Repeat until X round wins.
